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7: Part two - The $150,000 Question About Design School

Summary

This episode continues the conversation with Nick Morrison and Cody Dahl, two students finishing their Bachelor of Fine Arts in graphic design at Georgia State University. The host, Jonathan, delves deeper into their assessment of the value of formal design education, particularly given its significant cost.

The discussion centers on the intangible benefits of design school. Nick and Cody explain that while the dollar value is hard to quantify, the program provided immense personal and professional growth. They describe it as a “fire” that tested them technically and personally, forcing them to improve time management, understand their strengths and weaknesses, and develop discipline. The value lies less in learning specific software and more in developing conceptual thinking, resilience, and the ability to handle critique and tight deadlines.

A key highlight is the profile of their professors, who come from diverse industry backgrounds including creative direction at CNN, film production, motion graphics for major news networks, and freelance illustration. This variety provides students with a wide spectrum of practical perspectives. The conversation contrasts this with more academically-focused programs and acknowledges the unique mentorship and influential relationships that can form in a university setting.

Finally, the episode explores learning beyond the classroom and after graduation. Nick and Cody discuss skills they had to learn independently, such as advocating for their design opinions with clients and self-teaching software. They emphasize that only about 5% of formal education is software-based, and the real value is in design theory and concept development. They conclude by stressing the importance of cultivating a learning community, pursuing personal interests, and maintaining self-directed education to stay current in the ever-evolving design field.

Recommendations

Articles

  • No New Tools by Frank Chimero — Mentioned by Nick, this article argues against constantly chasing new design software, suggesting creators already have what they need to make good work. The professors in their program are said to abide by a similar philosophy.

People

  • Frank Chimero — A designer and writer mentioned by Nick. The host and guests briefly discuss the correct pronunciation of his last name (‘Chimero’) before referencing his article ‘No New Tools’.

Software

  • Sketch — Referenced as an example of how design software trends change rapidly. The host notes that if you graduate and a new tool like Sketch becomes standard, much of your specific software training can become quickly outdated, underscoring that understanding design is separate from knowing tools.
  • InDesign — Jokingly referenced as software few people are excited to learn. Nick humorously defends it, highlighting features like paragraph and character styles, illustrating a point about niche interests within design tools.

Topic Timeline

  • 00:00:00 — Introduction and program overview — The host introduces part two of the interview with Nick Morrison and Cody Dahl. They describe their Bachelor of Fine Arts in graphic design program at Georgia State University, noting its competitive nature with a 50% attrition rate from the application pool. The program has about 40 students total, split between juniors and seniors.
  • 00:02:14 — Assessing the value of a $150,000 design degree — Jonathan poses the central question: do they feel they made the right decision by attending formal design school? Nick and Cody acknowledge the sunk cost fallacy but argue the value is intangible. They describe the program as a personal and professional trial by fire that improved them as designers and humans, teaching crucial skills like time management and self-awareness under pressure.
  • 00:06:11 — The value and diversity of design professors — The conversation shifts to the professors, who Jonathan initially stereotyped as older, typeface-designing academics. Nick and Cody correct this, listing professors with backgrounds as a CNN creative director, a film and motion graphics producer for NBC, and a lifelong freelance illustrator. They highlight the value of this diverse, industry-experienced faculty in providing a wide spectrum of practical learning.
  • 00:10:42 — Skills learned outside of school and advocating for design — The host asks about education received outside of school, through work and freelance. Nick discusses learning to advocate for his design values and opinions, even against professors or clients, in a lower-stakes educational environment. This built confidence in his professional judgment. Cody adds that formal education focuses very little (around 5%) on software training, emphasizing conceptual and theoretical learning instead.
  • 00:16:29 — Approaching learning after formal education ends — As the conversation concludes, Jonathan asks how they view learning now that they’re exiting the forced education environment. Cody stresses building a library of resources and having a community of colleagues for sharing knowledge and holding “lunch and learn” sessions. Nick emphasizes the importance of a motivated community to stay accountable and the freedom to pursue self-directed learning based on personal interests within the design field.

Episode Info

  • Podcast: Developer Tea
  • Author: Jonathan Cutrell
  • Category: Technology Business Careers Society & Culture
  • Published: 2015-01-16T13:15:00Z
  • Duration: 00:19:35

References

Podcast Info

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to Developer T, episode seven, part two.

[00:00:07] This is the second part of the interview with Nick Morrison and Cody Dahl.

[00:00:11] Nick and Cody are finishing up their degrees in design school.

[00:00:17] In the previous episode we talked a little bit about if they thought that design school

[00:00:22] was a good value, if it was a good decision for them.

[00:00:25] We’re going to continue the conversation in this episode.

[00:00:29] Can you tell, just for everybody to know, because I don’t know exactly what the program

[00:00:33] is called, but where and what is the program that you’re in?

[00:00:37] It’s actually a Bachelor of Fine Arts in graphic design from Georgia State.

[00:00:43] I guess the dynamic of this program that makes it really competitive is probably

[00:00:49] between 50 and 60 people apply for every rotation.

[00:00:53] You bring in your portfolios that you’ve prepared through intro classes and out

[00:00:57] of that they select, I think it was 21 for our class, so there’s a 50% attrition rate,

[00:01:06] which is pretty competitive.

[00:01:09] So there’s 21 people that you’re constantly kind of, well it’s in your class, 21 people.

[00:01:16] How many people are in the program at one time?

[00:01:18] I’m assuming probably around 60-ish.

[00:01:20] It’s 40 actually, so we have juniors and seniors.

[00:01:25] To get into the BFA, you make it in and then there’s two years.

[00:01:30] So you have the underlings and the upperlings, as our professors make a point to create.

[00:01:36] So yeah, every program has its own culture and so for anybody who’s listening to this,

[00:01:41] wondering whether or not you should go on to design school, really, unfortunately

[00:01:46] I’m going to go ahead and give you the punch line, we can’t give you an answer.

[00:01:51] There’s not really a perfect answer to this question.

[00:01:54] For some people it’s a good idea.

[00:01:57] Obviously for Nick and Cody, they thought it was a good idea.

[00:01:59] Do you feel like now, here’s the million dollar question, or I guess probably however

[00:02:05] much-

[00:02:06] $150,000.

[00:02:09] Do you feel like you made the right decision by going to formal school?

[00:02:14] Now, keep in mind that most people who go to school will defend their decision

[00:02:18] to go to school.

[00:02:19] It’s the sunk cast fallacy.

[00:02:21] We kind of expect you to say yes, but if you have any thoughts on why you think it was

[00:02:26] a valuable decision that I think listeners and I am very interested to know.

[00:02:33] I think for me, the value of it is a little bit more intangible.

[00:02:38] So it’s challenging for me to say in a moment whether I would go back knowing

[00:02:44] what I know, what I know now, what I’ve lived through, I guess.

[00:02:48] That sounds really harsh and tragic.

[00:02:54] I think that’s a good thing because a lot of people try to base it off of, does it

[00:03:00] deliver a dollar value?

[00:03:02] This is why I didn’t give you these questions beforehand, because you would have said something

[00:03:06] about the dollar value, but that actually is a better answer to me.

[00:03:11] You had human experiences that made this, it has very little to do necessarily with

[00:03:17] your professional life, but you had human experiences that made it something different

[00:03:21] than it would have been just professionally.

[00:03:24] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:03:25] I think for me, it’s been a matter of I’ve been put through a little bit of a fire

[00:03:31] on a technical level, on a personal level.

[00:03:35] It’s a hard thing that you go through just because of all the time and effort

[00:03:38] that you have to put into it.

[00:03:41] I would say that it has definitely resulted in benefits and made me a better designer

[00:03:46] on a professional level and on a human level.

[00:03:50] I would advocate for it, I think, in some cases.

[00:03:54] It depends on the kind of person you are, obviously, but it worked well for me.

[00:03:58] I think it really brings out the best and the worst characteristics in yourself and

[00:04:03] sort of helps you realize those too.

[00:04:05] If you’re bad at time management, you’ll learn really quick that you’re bad at

[00:04:08] time management and you will get better because that’s what you have to do to succeed.

[00:04:14] It’s almost like a personal study as much as it is a design program.

[00:04:18] So you learn what your strengths are in design and what your weaknesses are so

[00:04:22] that you can very quickly work on them and learn to improve so that when you

[00:04:26] do enter the workforce or at whatever point you enter the workforce, you are

[00:04:30] prepared and well-educated to really just be the best person that you can

[00:04:35] be or the best designer that you can be.

[00:04:38] Yeah, designer, not person.

[00:04:39] They don’t focus on that.

[00:04:41] But I would argue that, at least for my formal education, a lot of the skills

[00:04:47] that I learned had less to do with my technique and more to do with my being

[00:04:53] a human, right?

[00:04:55] Like what you were saying about time management, Nick, that’s totally true.

[00:05:01] Like I had to deal with a bunch of projects and you guys did too, I know

[00:05:07] because we’ve talked about it.

[00:05:10] So many projects where I was like, dude, I have no idea how in the world I’m

[00:05:15] going to get this done.

[00:05:16] And there is a deadline.

[00:05:17] Like in the professional environment, depending on who you work for,

[00:05:21] deadlines sometimes can move and shift.

[00:05:23] And a really valuable worker knows how to come close to a deadline.

[00:05:29] Like it seems kind of like a really concrete thing to define.

[00:05:33] But that is a value to bring to the table that you’ve had the

[00:05:38] discipline to go through a relatively rigorous process to get a degree, right?

[00:05:45] And that’s even if it’s just to prove to yourself, that’s a really valuable

[00:05:50] thing to prove to yourself that you have the discipline to do all those

[00:05:55] projects and to get them in on time and then not fail classes, like to

[00:06:00] actually stand up to all the critique from the professors that you guys were

[00:06:06] talking about earlier, which leads me into my next question.

[00:06:11] So you talked about your professors being the most valuable part of your

[00:06:15] education and I’m really interested to hear a little bit more about kind of

[00:06:20] the characteristics of who they were, right?

[00:06:23] So people think of professor and immediately what I think when I think

[00:06:27] of a design professor, I think of like a 60 year old white haired dude.

[00:06:32] Yes, I do think of a man.

[00:06:33] That’s just what comes into my mind.

[00:06:35] Call it sexist, whatever you want to call it.

[00:06:37] That’s what comes into my mind.

[00:06:38] And so think of this guy who designed a typeface like 30 years ago and

[00:06:44] because he designed some typeface, he’s become a professor now because

[00:06:47] everybody thinks, hey, he designed a typeface.

[00:06:51] So tell me how wrong I am, please.

[00:06:55] Well, so running through the list in my head, we had a professor who was

[00:07:00] a creative director at CNN, another professor who worked in the film

[00:07:04] industry producing a film of his own.

[00:07:07] He’s worked with NBC and a bunch of other like major news networks to

[00:07:11] do like motion graphics.

[00:07:13] And then on the other spectrum, we have a professor who is like a

[00:07:18] illustrator who does editorial illustrations and he’s been a

[00:07:21] freelancer freelancing his whole life.

[00:07:23] So he has a totally different perspective.

[00:07:25] And then I think the rest of them, they just have worked in the

[00:07:29] industry in various fields, doing all sorts of good work with good people.

[00:07:33] So I think it’s a very well varied and diverse group of professors.

[00:07:38] So you really get a good spectrum, wide spectrum of learning

[00:07:42] for every single person.

[00:07:42] And there’s actually two women just for the record.

[00:07:46] Good, good.

[00:07:48] That’s great.

[00:07:48] Yeah.

[00:07:49] So and where any other notes you wanted to add to that list, Cody?

[00:07:54] No, I think Nick covered that.

[00:07:56] Cool.

[00:07:56] All right.

[00:07:56] Well, then.

[00:07:58] So that’s an interesting thing to me because I think most good design schools

[00:08:05] probably have that same kind of list, right?

[00:08:09] It’s not going to be a bunch of the same like print design guys who focus on

[00:08:15] how to make a good poster.

[00:08:17] It’s going to be people who probably have a pretty significant amount of

[00:08:22] academic influence, right?

[00:08:25] So they’ve done some kind of academic work in the design world,

[00:08:28] but also people who have quite a bit of practical, like hands on,

[00:08:33] on the job kind of experience.

[00:08:37] So I think that in my degree, in my master’s degree,

[00:08:41] it was a little bit different for my master’s degree.

[00:08:43] Actually, most of the people who taught there were pretty much entirely academic.

[00:08:49] So it was a really interesting difference from the average kind of design program.

[00:08:55] It is a really interesting environment.

[00:08:57] The formal education environment is really interesting.

[00:08:59] And there are things definitely that you can get out of a university environment

[00:09:05] that you just can’t get out of an online environment.

[00:09:08] And I know that that sounds kind of like old school of me a little bit,

[00:09:11] but everyone I’ve talked to who has been a part of that university

[00:09:17] environment, they have stories similar to what you guys are saying,

[00:09:21] which is related to these individual people that have been just really

[00:09:28] influential in their lives and especially in their education.

[00:09:33] And I have those stories and people like you have those stories.

[00:09:36] And I’m sure a lot of the people who are listening to this who had formal

[00:09:40] education have those stories as well.

[00:09:42] So I can come out and say, I’m for it.

[00:09:45] Again, I might be biased because I also have a significant amount of debt

[00:09:51] from my education.

[00:09:52] So I don’t like to think that that was a bad idea.

[00:09:56] But I do.

[00:09:58] I have legitimate reason, I think, to appreciate formal education.

[00:10:06] So just for the sake of completeness, is that a word?

[00:10:11] Cohesion?

[00:10:12] I don’t know.

[00:10:13] Yeah, there we go.

[00:10:15] For the sake of a well-rounded conversation,

[00:10:18] let’s talk about a little bit of the education

[00:10:21] that you’ve received since you’ve been at school that

[00:10:24] wasn’t because of the school.

[00:10:26] So you guys have been working with Whiteboard,

[00:10:28] but you’ve also been working on freelance projects of your own.

[00:10:32] What are some things that school never could have taught you

[00:10:36] that you had to learn on your own or on the real job at Whiteboard?

[00:10:42] I think one of the bigger things that I’ve learned kind of peripherally

[00:10:47] is how to really fight for, I guess, a value that’s important to you

[00:10:53] in the context of a project, whether that be against a professor’s

[00:10:57] opinion, against your studio mate’s opinion,

[00:10:59] or even against one of the clients that we’re put up with.

[00:11:04] They’re getting free work, so it’s kind of a lesser consequence

[00:11:08] context, I guess.

[00:11:09] So you can kind of go, this is actually

[00:11:12] how an idea should be represented.

[00:11:15] This is the best way to do it, and this is why I believe in it.

[00:11:17] And you can make a case for it without, I guess,

[00:11:20] having a fear that I imagine probably a lot of us have of,

[00:11:24] I don’t want to offend this client,

[00:11:26] or I don’t want to make this relationship go sour.

[00:11:30] Obviously, there’s still a relational aspect to it,

[00:11:32] but it’s less of a, if you screw this up,

[00:11:35] this was your only chance.

[00:11:38] I think being willing to take a stand for that kind of thing

[00:11:43] was a really invaluable lesson in the context of education.

[00:11:47] Sure, believing in your opinion.

[00:11:49] Yeah, exactly.

[00:11:50] And it’s validated in the end because nothing falls apart.

[00:11:54] This is the seventh episode of the very first podcast

[00:11:57] I’ve ever created.

[00:11:59] So learning to value my opinion,

[00:12:02] I’ve done that seven times now in the course

[00:12:06] of this particular thing, and it’s a tough thing.

[00:12:10] It really is a hard thing, and it’s extremely valuable.

[00:12:12] Once you decide to pull the trigger on your own opinion,

[00:12:16] you realize that other people,

[00:12:17] sometimes they actually agree with you.

[00:12:19] Sometimes your opinion is not that crazy

[00:12:21] or that unfounded.

[00:12:25] On the more technical side of things,

[00:12:28] as going into the program, you think,

[00:12:29] oh, I can’t wait to learn Photoshop and Illustrator

[00:12:32] and InDesign, like, wow, I just, like,

[00:12:35] lectures on software.

[00:12:36] I’m so excited to actually, like, dive in.

[00:12:39] There is, like, 5% of your learning is software-based.

[00:12:43] So in the intro classes, they’ll tell you,

[00:12:46] like, we’re gonna be using Photoshop.

[00:12:48] Here’s where you can learn.

[00:12:50] And you go online and you use online classes to learn.

[00:12:53] And then the professors teach you the things

[00:12:55] that are, like, conceptual or, like, art theory

[00:12:58] or design theory.

[00:12:59] They give you resources.

[00:13:00] They show you work they’ve done.

[00:13:02] So if you’re going into formal education

[00:13:05] solely to learn software

[00:13:07] and learn the technical aspects of things,

[00:13:10] that’s not what it’s most valuable for.

[00:13:12] The value we’ve got out of it was,

[00:13:13] like, we talked about earlier was, like, concept

[00:13:15] and, like, real-world learning and stuff.

[00:13:19] So you have to kind of be a self-starter

[00:13:22] and be very motivated so that you can keep up

[00:13:24] with new software and keep up with upgrades in software

[00:13:28] and just even learning.

[00:13:30] Like, I still learn new things every single day in software

[00:13:33] that I had no idea existed.

[00:13:35] So you have to really be able to motivate yourself

[00:13:38] to learn and be a fairly fast learner

[00:13:41] or a very dedicated learner, I think.

[00:13:43] Nick, I’m gonna be real with you.

[00:13:44] I think you’re the only person in our program

[00:13:46] who is excited about learning about InDesign.

[00:13:48] I didn’t say I was excited.

[00:13:50] That was my hypothetical wanting

[00:13:53] to get a formal education voice.

[00:13:56] Wow, InDesign.

[00:13:57] InDesign.

[00:13:59] If you’re learning InDesign, don’t stop.

[00:14:02] There’s a lot you can do with it, I think.

[00:14:04] I don’t really know.

[00:14:05] Oh, it’s awesome.

[00:14:06] The paragraph styles and the character style.

[00:14:08] Yeah.

[00:14:10] So, and to prove your point,

[00:14:12] Sketch has become, like, super popular

[00:14:15] in the last year, year and a half, two years.

[00:14:18] And you guys, if you had gone to design school

[00:14:21] and already graduated and Sketch popped up on the market

[00:14:23] and you decided, hey, you know,

[00:14:25] at our agency or whatever,

[00:14:26] we’re gonna start using Sketch exclusively,

[00:14:29] then guess what?

[00:14:30] All of that training or a lot of the training

[00:14:31] that you got in Illustrator and Photoshop,

[00:14:34] it’s kind of useless.

[00:14:35] Like, not entirely because you learn

[00:14:39] kind of some fundamental ideas

[00:14:41] behind how to use design software,

[00:14:43] but it really becomes like,

[00:14:46] understanding design software

[00:14:49] and understanding design are two different things.

[00:14:52] And I think that’s kind of what you’re saying

[00:14:53] is software is constantly gonna change,

[00:14:55] but there are some things that you can learn about design

[00:15:00] that will stick with you.

[00:15:01] Yeah, I think it was Frank Chimero

[00:15:03] wrote an article about it a long time ago,

[00:15:05] couple of years.

[00:15:06] That is the first time that I’ve ever heard

[00:15:08] the proper pronunciation of his name, by the way.

[00:15:11] Chimero?

[00:15:12] Chimero?

[00:15:13] Chimero?

[00:15:14] I don’t know.

[00:15:14] Frank Chimero.

[00:15:17] Anyway, go ahead.

[00:15:19] I think the title of it was No New Tools,

[00:15:22] and his, like.

[00:15:23] I read that.

[00:15:24] Yeah, it was a really cool concept.

[00:15:25] It was just like, realistically,

[00:15:26] I already have what I need to create the work.

[00:15:29] Like, why get bogged down

[00:15:30] in learning a million new pieces of technology?

[00:15:32] And I think that’s honestly a valuable thing

[00:15:35] that our professors tend to abide by.

[00:15:37] Sure.

[00:15:38] That is a useful precept.

[00:15:42] So I’m gonna go into the last kind of question concept,

[00:15:46] wherever you wanna call it,

[00:15:47] because I know we’ve gone way over

[00:15:51] our initial plan for this conversation.

[00:15:54] It’s just gone in so many good directions.

[00:15:56] So on this podcast, I talk about learning a lot,

[00:16:01] and I’m gonna continue talking about learning a lot.

[00:16:03] So because this is an education-themed episode,

[00:16:07] I’d be interested to know,

[00:16:09] how do you guys view learning

[00:16:12] now that you’re about to exit your formal education?

[00:16:16] What do you think is the value of learning

[00:16:20] now that you’re kind of leaving that

[00:16:23] forced learning environment?

[00:16:24] How do you adopt learning in your day-to-day design work?

[00:16:29] Because it’s different for everyone.

[00:16:31] So I think it’s valuable to learn about learning.

[00:16:37] Well, cultivating a good library of resources is important,

[00:16:44] and then having a good friend group

[00:16:45] or a bunch of colleagues and coworkers

[00:16:48] that you can bounce ideas off of or share resources

[00:16:51] and constantly be talking about more new things

[00:16:54] and things, talking to them and learning from them

[00:16:57] or sharing what you’ve learned.

[00:16:59] So I know at Whiteboard, we’ve done lunch and learn

[00:17:02] or different talks,

[00:17:04] and I think those are really valuable

[00:17:05] because you can learn from what other people have to say

[00:17:08] and then you can also contribute your own things

[00:17:10] that you’ve learned.

[00:17:11] So really spending some time every week

[00:17:14] reading about something you didn’t know about

[00:17:16] or setting out to learn something that you didn’t know

[00:17:19] that you’ve been wanting to know for a long time

[00:17:21] I think is important so that you stay current and fresh

[00:17:26] with keeping your brain nice and stimulated.

[00:17:30] Yeah, that’s the word.

[00:17:33] And I guess just to bounce off of that a little bit,

[00:17:35] I feel like it is really, really important

[00:17:39] to have a community of people

[00:17:40] that are interested in learning

[00:17:41] or at least interested in the things

[00:17:43] you’re interested in around you.

[00:17:44] It kind of motivates you or keeps you accountable to learn.

[00:17:47] Like I know you, Jonathan, you’ve challenged me a lot

[00:17:50] to learn new things

[00:17:52] just because of the way that you learn new things.

[00:17:53] And I think that’s a really invaluable thing.

[00:17:56] So if you’re listening to this and you don’t have that,

[00:17:59] it’s worth finding.

[00:18:01] And then honestly, just going after the things

[00:18:05] that peak your interests, I guess, in your industry,

[00:18:09] because I mean, I would hope you got into it

[00:18:12] because you were interested in it on some level.

[00:18:14] Those are the things that you’re already good at.

[00:18:17] And that’s one of the really nice things, I think,

[00:18:18] about not being in this forced induction learning environment

[00:18:23] because you can be more self-motivated

[00:18:26] and self-directed in it.

[00:18:27] So I think those little hints and leanings

[00:18:30] are things worth listening to.

[00:18:32] So if you’re really into interaction design

[00:18:35] or I guess maybe animation-heavy CSS stuff,

[00:18:41] I think it is worth pursuing that kind of stuff

[00:18:44] and not just slogging through something

[00:18:47] that you don’t really care about

[00:18:49] because someone told you you should.

[00:18:50] Absolutely.

[00:18:53] Thanks so much to Nick and Cody for their time

[00:18:56] and for joining me on Developer Tea, episode seven.

[00:18:59] I thought they had a lot of insight to add

[00:19:02] to the conversation about formal education.

[00:19:05] I hope you enjoyed this podcast.

[00:19:07] Let me know if you have any thoughts

[00:19:10] or any comments about the podcast in general.

[00:19:13] You can get at me on Twitter at at developertea

[00:19:17] or you can email me at developertea at gmail.com.

[00:19:21] Until next time, enjoy your tea.

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