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Leitura de 24 min

12: Chris Coyier, Part Two - Getting Good At Pretty Much Anything

Summary

In this second part of the interview with Chris Coyier, the conversation centers on the universal principle of skill acquisition: practice. Chris emphasizes that getting better at web development—or any skill like music or cooking—requires consistent effort and time, similar to the concept of 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. He notes that people often have incorrect expectations about different fields, assuming some skills require innate talent while others don’t, when in reality, improvement comes from repeated doing.

The discussion shifts to the practicalities of web development work, particularly the tendency for developers to rewrite common components like sliders or grids instead of using pre-built solutions. Chris and Jonathan explore the reasons behind this, including the desire for “design integrity”—creating custom solutions that perfectly match client needs—and the personal satisfaction derived from problem-solving. They acknowledge that this approach can be more valuable and command higher fees compared to using off-the-shelf plugins.

Chris reflects on the diversity of developer personalities and business models, from those who efficiently use standard tools to those who craft bespoke solutions. He also touches on the importance of sharing knowledge without prescribing universal rules, suggesting that advice should be framed as “this worked for me, try it and see.” Finally, Chris provides updates on his projects: CSS-Tricks continues to publish front-end content, now with more guest writers, and CodePen has added a job board to connect employers with its community of front-end developers.

Recommendations

Books

  • The Pragmatic Programmer — A book by Dave Thomas referenced in the discussion about ‘Code Kata’ and developer habits.

People

  • Dave Thomas — Author of ‘The Pragmatic Programmer,’ mentioned in the context of discussing ‘Code Kata’ and the programmer’s mindset towards problem-solving.
  • Dave Rupert — Co-host with Chris Coyier of the ShopTalk Show podcast.

Websites

  • CSS-Tricks — Chris Coyier’s website featuring articles about CSS and front-end web development, with Chris writing and also hiring guest writers for content.
  • CodePen — A browser-based code editor with social components, allowing users to build and share HTML, CSS, and JavaScript snippets, useful for learning, inspiration, and bug cases. Recently added a job board.
  • ShopTalkShow.com — The podcast hosted by Chris Coyier and Dave Rupert that discusses front-end web development.

Topic Timeline

  • 00:01:37 — The importance of practice and work ethic in web development — Jonathan references Chris’s advice to “try your best” and “make more websites” as a way to improve. Chris explains that these mantras are meant to combat feelings of being overwhelmed and to emphasize that getting better at anything—CSS, music, cooking—requires consistent practice. He notes that people often have skewed expectations across different skills, but the fundamental principle remains: do it a lot and you’ll improve.
  • 00:06:14 — The tendency to rewrite code and the value of custom solutions — The conversation turns to developers’ addiction to problem-solving and the habit of rewriting common components like sliders. Chris suggests this might stem from a rush to write working code or a desire for control and perfect “design integrity” for clients. He contrasts this with developers who use pre-built solutions efficiently, acknowledging both approaches exist on a spectrum and can be tied to personality and business models.
  • 00:12:30 — Avoiding universal advice and sharing personal experiences — Jonathan recalls an email exchange where Chris advised against prescribing one universal rule for all developers. Instead, Chris recommended framing advice as “this is working for me, try it out.” This perspective values individual experience and experimentation over dogma, which Jonathan found incredibly valuable as he works on his own book.
  • 00:14:54 — Updates on CSS-Tricks, CodePen, and the new job board — Chris shares updates on his projects. CSS-Tricks continues to publish front-end content, with Chris writing and also hiring others to contribute. CodePen is described as a browser-based code editor with social features, useful for inspiration, teaching, and sharing. He highlights the recent addition of a job board to help employers connect with the front-end developers active on the platform.

Episode Info

  • Podcast: Developer Tea
  • Author: Jonathan Cutrell
  • Category: Technology Business Careers Society & Culture
  • Published: 2015-01-30T13:15:00Z
  • Duration: 00:19:20

References

Podcast Info

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hey everyone and welcome to this episode of developer tea.

[00:00:04] My name is Jonathan Cottrell and today we continue the interview with Chris Coyer.

[00:00:09] Again if you don’t know who Chris is, Chris created CSS tricks dot com, code pin and shop

[00:00:15] talk show.

[00:00:17] These three things are incredibly valuable to the development community.

[00:00:22] Chris created CSS tricks a long time ago.

[00:00:25] Back when I was first learning about CSS, I referenced CSS tricks pretty much every

[00:00:30] single day.

[00:00:32] Now I use code pin constantly when I’m trying to learn about a new thing in CSS or Sass

[00:00:39] or JavaScript.

[00:00:42] Code pin is a fantastic tool for getting things into the browser very quickly.

[00:00:46] It also allows you, as Chris will tell you later on in the show, it allows you

[00:00:50] to do social things like commenting and there’s even a blog feature on there.

[00:00:55] So if you’ve been wanting to write a blog, you can easily go and write a blog on code

[00:01:00] pin where all of the front end developers who know what they’re doing basically are

[00:01:05] living.

[00:01:06] Now that’s not to say that there aren’t good front end developers on code pin,

[00:01:09] but they should be.

[00:01:11] And lastly, shop talk show.

[00:01:13] Shop talk show is Chris and Dave Rupert’s podcast where they talk all about front

[00:01:16] end web development.

[00:01:18] You can go and check out shop talk show at shoptalkshow.com.

[00:01:22] If you listen to any other podcast today, make sure this is the one.

[00:01:28] Fantastic content over there.

[00:01:29] All right.

[00:01:30] So let’s start the second part of the interview with Chris Coyer.

[00:01:37] You said something recently and correct me if I get the exact wording wrong.

[00:01:43] I guess it doesn’t really matter all that much anyway, but you said in relation

[00:01:48] to writing better CSS, you said basically try your best.

[00:01:55] And I think that struck a chord with, I mean, I know it struck a chord with me and

[00:01:59] the developers that I work with, but I think it also struck a kind of a larger

[00:02:02] chord with the development community as well.

[00:02:06] And there’s another quote from you that kind of harkens back to the same concept,

[00:02:11] which is like make more websites.

[00:02:13] Like if you want to be better at this, just keep on doing it.

[00:02:18] And I think that your history kind of proves that you’ve experienced that.

[00:02:24] And it’s really cool to see you still doing like today, for instance.

[00:02:28] I guess it was today or the last post that you put on CSS tricks.

[00:02:32] You’re still really interested in CSS, it looks like.

[00:02:36] For all intents and purposes, nothing really has changed about Chris Coyer since

[00:02:42] 2007, in that you’re still doing this day to day writing CSS.

[00:02:47] And that’s really awesome.

[00:02:50] Talk about the importance of, I guess, work ethic and, you know, if you want to make

[00:02:57] more websites or if you want to make better websites, just make more of them.

[00:03:02] Yeah.

[00:03:03] Yeah.

[00:03:04] Well, it’s, I mean, the point of both of those two things, like the do a good

[00:03:09] job post and the just build websites kind of mantra is to make people feel a little

[00:03:15] better about all this because it’s just so easy to be overwhelmed by it and, and

[00:03:20] then have some feelings of giving up.

[00:03:23] Like I’ll never make it that kind of thing.

[00:03:25] But, but, and then to draw on an analogy to, okay, the analogy for this

[00:03:30] and learning our learning how to be a better web developer is basically

[00:03:34] learning how to do anything else ever at all.

[00:03:38] Anything, right?

[00:03:40] It’s just do it a bunch and you’ll get better at it.

[00:03:43] You’re a musician.

[00:03:44] You have a history with that.

[00:03:45] Nobody, for some reason, the expectations are like more correct in

[00:03:49] people’s minds for musicianship.

[00:03:51] They assume that in order to become a better musician, that they have to work

[00:03:55] at it and then they’ll get better at it and I don’t, you know, and the

[00:03:59] expectation level should be exactly the same for getting better at CSS.

[00:04:03] It should be the exact same for being a better cook and stuff.

[00:04:06] But I’m, I’m always fascinated by how those expectations like are

[00:04:10] wrong across different areas.

[00:04:13] For example, like cooking, people will be like, I’m just a terrible cook.

[00:04:18] You’d be like, no, you’re not.

[00:04:19] You’re average at cooking because you haven’t practiced it a bunch.

[00:04:25] And if you practice it a bunch, then you could level up and get

[00:04:27] better at cooking if you want it to.

[00:04:29] Right.

[00:04:30] Just like I’m not no good at cutting hair.

[00:04:33] I’m no good at cutting hair yet, but if I cut a hair, like if I cut

[00:04:37] like a thousand people’s hair, I would be okay at it.

[00:04:41] I happen to be a little okay at front end development because I’ve

[00:04:44] spent a whole bunch of time doing it.

[00:04:46] That’s why that like 10,000 hours resonated with so many people

[00:04:49] because they’re like, Oh, I get it.

[00:04:50] If I spend a crap load of time doing something, I’ll get good at it.

[00:04:54] Yes, obviously it’s been like that for everything ever through

[00:04:58] the history of time and human brains.

[00:05:01] That’s so funny that I think that’s totally true that, uh, you

[00:05:06] know, people for whatever reason I’m, you know, you’re a musician.

[00:05:09] I’m a musician.

[00:05:11] Why is it that people are like, Oh yeah, to be great at guitar.

[00:05:14] I better practice my scales.

[00:05:15] You know, like what is the equivalent?

[00:05:17] Do I need to practice like my syntax?

[00:05:20] I don’t, I don’t know.

[00:05:21] Like what, what is it?

[00:05:22] It’s just build web.

[00:05:23] It’s do the job, whatever that job happens to be.

[00:05:26] Yeah.

[00:05:26] Maybe there isn’t scales.

[00:05:27] Maybe there is, you know, cause it’s, I guess you could, yeah,

[00:05:30] you could read, you could read specs or you could, you could practice

[00:05:36] certain things you could do.

[00:05:37] Hello world tutorials.

[00:05:39] Maybe that’s the same, that’s the same kind of idea, but just in that,

[00:05:42] in that same kind of way, you could get, you can get discouraged

[00:05:45] just playing scales all the time.

[00:05:46] You can get discouraged just doing hello world tutorials all the

[00:05:49] time because they’re not real.

[00:05:52] It’s a lot easier to go find like a Mike Ness song that you really

[00:05:55] like and be like, yeah, do you know, or whatever, uh, because

[00:06:00] there’s, because it feels real.

[00:06:01] Then it feels like I’m playing a song that I wanted to play.

[00:06:04] That’s why I bought this guitar in the first place.

[00:06:07] That’s why I bought this domain name in the first place.

[00:06:09] That’s right.

[00:06:11] Well, that’s great.

[00:06:11] Yeah, for sure.

[00:06:14] So Dave Thomas is a, I’m a huge fan of Dave Thomas, um, pragmatic

[00:06:20] programmer or all those things.

[00:06:21] He talks about CodeCada.

[00:06:23] I’m actually doing another episode specifically talking about CodeCada.

[00:06:27] And like, I, I think that we’re addicted to problem solving

[00:06:34] sometimes, uh, and that kind of can cause problems, uh, which is

[00:06:39] unfortunate because it’s self feeding.

[00:06:41] But the idea is that we, we, as programmers, like we’ll

[00:06:45] rewrite the same slider.

[00:06:47] I mean, I know that once you, once you’ve done it enough, you

[00:06:50] realize I need to stop doing this, hopefully, but we, we keep on

[00:06:53] redoing the same stuff over and over and over, um, because we’re,

[00:06:59] I don’t know, I think it’s like a rush to be able to write something

[00:07:02] that works, um, and we don’t get that practice time that we need.

[00:07:08] What do you, have you had?

[00:07:09] That’s interesting that you, you might, you might rewrite something

[00:07:12] just because you’re, you’re in a rush.

[00:07:14] I think that’s true.

[00:07:15] Probably that’s I’ve certainly like was faced with the problem

[00:07:19] and then rushed into solving it probably without applying like super

[00:07:23] strong problem solving skills to it.

[00:07:25] Or somebody else might be like, okay, here’s the problem.

[00:07:28] Now let’s do a little research and just, you know, think of ways that

[00:07:30] we could solve this problem before doing it, you know?

[00:07:33] Yeah, for sure.

[00:07:34] And then, you know, I think there’s some connections here to that.

[00:07:37] Like, what do they call that?

[00:07:38] And N I S or not invented here syndrome, whatever the

[00:07:43] analog is for that, where there, there’s some people like, you

[00:07:46] know, prefer not to pick pre-baked, um, solutions because

[00:07:51] it’s handcrafted.

[00:07:52] Yeah.

[00:07:53] Like I have control.

[00:07:54] I know it does exactly the thing that I need it to do

[00:07:57] presumably in, in, in less lines of code, especially because if you,

[00:08:01] if you have a solution to a problem that you intend to like give the

[00:08:05] world, you probably solve it in more generic, more configurable ways.

[00:08:10] Whereas like, I know exactly what I need.

[00:08:12] There needs to be no configuration to this problem because, because

[00:08:15] I’m just going to code it exactly as it needs to be for this scenario.

[00:08:19] That can be kind of appealing.

[00:08:20] Right.

[00:08:21] Yeah.

[00:08:22] Yeah.

[00:08:23] And I’m totally guilty of that.

[00:08:24] That’s I have written like a hundred sliders.

[00:08:27] You know, it’s just, it seems like that’s my job is to write sliders.

[00:08:32] My job isn’t to go out and research slider plugins.

[00:08:35] It’s to write code.

[00:08:37] And so I get into this rut of rewriting things.

[00:08:39] And I think a lot of us do, I think a lot of us end up, you

[00:08:42] know, doing the same stuff over and over writing another grid.

[00:08:46] It might be part of your personality though.

[00:08:48] I’ve definitely met other developers who, who say, okay, I make websites.

[00:08:54] I use WordPress, I use the owl slider plugin and that’s what I do.

[00:08:58] And if you want that, I will make you one of them for $2,000 and they,

[00:09:03] you know, or whatever, and they do it and they get a bunch of clients

[00:09:06] and they’re, and they’re, they’re just like, okay with that.

[00:09:09] Like they just say, this is the type of developer I am.

[00:09:12] And this is what I have to offer.

[00:09:14] And this is how I do it.

[00:09:14] Just cause that’s their personality and more custom solutions are your

[00:09:19] personality, you know, I tend to err on your side a little bit.

[00:09:22] Like, you know, let’s, let’s do it.

[00:09:24] You know, hopefully the reason that you’re have written so many sliders

[00:09:28] is cause you’re, I don’t know, you’re working with a client and you’re

[00:09:33] trying to make sure that they, you know, exactly how they’re seeing it.

[00:09:37] And you’re seeing it as, you know, hopefully it’s like solving little

[00:09:40] things that do it just right for them.

[00:09:42] Right.

[00:09:43] The buzzword is design integrity.

[00:09:46] That’s yeah, it’s really fancy, but the idea is just like,

[00:09:52] you know, I want it to do this only when the user has done these three

[00:09:58] things and also, uh, can you populate it with these special posts and

[00:10:04] blah, blah, blah, you know, whatever.

[00:10:05] Um, and so like having to figure out the configuration and customize,

[00:10:11] you know, whatever the prebuilt CSS is for a plugin.

[00:10:14] It’s like, ah, that’s just not, it’s not the same level of

[00:10:18] design integrity as if I were to just hand customer service too.

[00:10:22] You’re just, you’re saying yes.

[00:10:24] And you’re making sure things work for them.

[00:10:25] It’s, you know, that’s, it’s also worth more money than somebody just says,

[00:10:29] ah, sorry, it’s not what, what owl owl slider does.

[00:10:32] So here’s what our slider does.

[00:10:34] If you want to put something in the slider, follow these instructions.

[00:10:37] And, and I’m sure that then the people are like, oh, okay.

[00:10:41] You know, and they might be like, yeah, that’s fine.

[00:10:43] Here’s your $2,000 check.

[00:10:44] Bye.

[00:10:45] Whereas somebody that you’re like, well, okay, that’s, that’s interesting.

[00:10:48] You want to take the two most popular posts and put them in there.

[00:10:50] Well, it’s not really built for that, but you know, I can, I can do that.

[00:10:54] It’ll take me three days at this rate.

[00:10:56] And, you know, you know, you end up extracting more like $10,000

[00:11:00] from that client or something.

[00:11:01] I’m just making up stuff.

[00:11:02] But, you know, yeah, yeah.

[00:11:04] Well, you and Dave talked about this on an episode.

[00:11:06] I couldn’t recall what it is, but you talked about like the

[00:11:09] difference between the guy who’s doing the theme, like implementation.

[00:11:13] Here’s your site and give me your DNS and we’re done.

[00:11:16] Um, versus, you know, we’re going to do like an exploration of your brand and

[00:11:21] go through this whole process of figuring out what the website is for you, you

[00:11:26] know, two totally different processes.

[00:11:29] And I think there’s a sliding scale between the two.

[00:11:31] Um, but I definitely think that there, there are a lot of people on the

[00:11:35] extremes of that spectrum, um, you know, on either end of that.

[00:11:41] You got it, man.

[00:11:42] And I, I always try to preface this with this, like, I haven’t been in

[00:11:45] client services for a long time.

[00:11:47] So it’s a little weird, like, don’t take too much advice from what I have to say,

[00:11:50] but I just use, you know, people talk about it a lot in our industry and I

[00:11:54] hear a lot about it and I’m around a lot of it being at conferences and

[00:11:57] through the podcast and stuff.

[00:11:59] So I occasionally have opinions on it, but my opinions are usually

[00:12:01] grounded in like, you know, absolute logic only, you know, like I am an

[00:12:08] adult, I am applying basic problem solving to this problem.

[00:12:12] Anyway, I’m sure that, you know, like you said, there’s a sliding

[00:12:14] scale and there’s a lot of muddiness to how this all actually goes down.

[00:12:18] Right.

[00:12:18] But we can’t work with sliding scales when we’re talking about logic very

[00:12:22] easily, right?

[00:12:23] So we tend to put these people into buckets, but anyway, uh, so you

[00:12:30] sent, I sent you an email a few months back because I’m writing this

[00:12:33] book, um, and you were kind enough to respond and, um, you had one of

[00:12:40] your responses was just fantastic.

[00:12:42] And I wanted to talk about it, but I don’t have it in front of me.

[00:12:46] But basically what you said was I was asking you like, what is your one

[00:12:50] thing that you would tell developers, uh, that they should absolutely do

[00:12:55] forever and always for everyone.

[00:12:57] And your response was basically to say, there isn’t one thing for

[00:13:01] everyone when we have these personal experiences, maybe it’s good to just

[00:13:06] say, Hey, this thing is working really well for me, you know, try it

[00:13:11] out and tell me how, how it works for you.

[00:13:13] Um, and that was really valuable for me.

[00:13:16] I’d like to talk or maybe just quick kind of recap on that for people who

[00:13:20] are listening, cause I think that that perspective is just incredibly valuable.

[00:13:26] Okay, cool.

[00:13:27] Yeah.

[00:13:27] I think, I think I remember that I almost was, I almost kind of

[00:13:30] forgot about our little interaction there, but yeah, the, the, uh, how

[00:13:33] much have you shared about your book already?

[00:13:35] Is it still kind of a secret or is, have you been promoting it?

[00:13:38] No, it’s not a secret yet.

[00:13:39] Uh, well, I’m sorry.

[00:13:40] It’s not a secret.

[00:13:41] It’s not released yet is what I meant to say.

[00:13:44] Um, the book is hopefully going to release this year that it’s kind of

[00:13:50] being, uh, it’s going back through a revision because I, I read, like

[00:13:55] reread back through it and realized that I don’t agree with myself and a

[00:14:03] lot of things, so I’m like, man, I can’t publish this.

[00:14:05] So, uh, at some point I’m just going to have to say, you know what?

[00:14:08] I got to push it out and like maybe do a version two of the book where I say,

[00:14:12] Hey, I was being dumb back then.

[00:14:14] I don’t know.

[00:14:15] Uh, but hopefully this year, uh, and, and insight from you and other people

[00:14:20] will be included in the book for sure, but that particular piece of

[00:14:24] information, I just, it kind of floored me cause I, you know, we

[00:14:28] try to think in terms of like, you know, what do you learn?

[00:14:32] What is the secret piece thing that you learn as a developer, um,

[00:14:38] to be better and I ask everybody who’s going to be on the show.

[00:14:42] I’m going to ask them to kind of give one piece of advice, uh, to

[00:14:46] developers, because I think everyone has something different to, to tell people.

[00:14:52] Right.

[00:14:53] Cool.

[00:14:54] So anyway, um, actually, if you want to share anything about CodePen or

[00:14:59] about, uh, CSS tricks shop talk, or any of the conferences that you’re

[00:15:03] involved with coming up, that’d be, you know, fully welcome here.

[00:15:07] Nice.

[00:15:08] Yeah.

[00:15:08] Thanks for that opportunity.

[00:15:09] I always try to, sometimes I’m like, oh no, but as I guess I get older and

[00:15:14] I’m thinking more about business, I’m like, I need to seize this opportunity

[00:15:17] in which to explain the things that I do.

[00:15:20] Yeah.

[00:15:21] Uh, uh, we’ve talked about most of them already, but love at CSS

[00:15:24] tricks is my website where you can go and subscribe and just get posts

[00:15:29] about, about, uh, you know, all things web, really it is about CSS, but it’s

[00:15:33] about anything front end web these days, really.

[00:15:36] Uh, and I’m trying to, you know, just to continue to do a good job on.

[00:15:39] I’m writing a lot.

[00:15:40] I’m trying to get other people to write on it more, which is unusual.

[00:15:43] And really what’s interesting about that is nobody’s seem

[00:15:46] to have any problem with it.

[00:15:48] They just like good web content.

[00:15:49] So if I can hire somebody to write a great article, I’m going to do that.

[00:15:53] Yeah, for sure.

[00:15:55] Which is I’ve seen some great posts on there from, from guest posts.

[00:15:58] Yeah.

[00:15:59] And I kind of try to intro them.

[00:16:00] So there’s still some of my voice in there and stuff.

[00:16:02] Uh, and then CodePen is the, is the site I do that we didn’t talk

[00:16:05] about mostly, but that’s kind of my big, that’s where most of my time goes,

[00:16:09] which is, uh, uh, like a code editor in the browser kind of thing with social

[00:16:13] components.

[00:16:14] So a lot of people have heard of dribble in the design community.

[00:16:16] There’s some connections there cause it’s kind of like, you

[00:16:18] follow people, they follow you back.

[00:16:20] You heart the work that they do and, uh, you know, kind of have

[00:16:24] comment threads on things, but what you’re building instead of a

[00:16:27] screenshot is like HTML, CSS, JavaScript, you know, you know,

[00:16:30] building cool interactive things and you can search for it and find stuff.

[00:16:33] So it’s a, it’s, I find it, you know, all these years later, it’s still a little

[00:16:37] hard to describe really, cause it’s like, you can come there for inspiration

[00:16:40] or teaching or sharing or bug cases.

[00:16:43] And like, there’s all these things you can use it for.

[00:16:45] So that’s CodePen and we’ve recently added a job board to it.

[00:16:48] So if anybody out there is working and trying to hire someone for a job,

[00:16:52] uh, there’s a lot of front end developers are hard to hire and there’s

[00:16:55] a lot of them on CodePen and hopefully you can reach front end

[00:16:59] developers by through that job board.

[00:17:01] So I’m just kind of stoked about that at the moment.

[00:17:03] That’s awesome.

[00:17:04] That’s my big pitch for the day.

[00:17:07] Yeah, for sure.

[00:17:08] Actually I was, I talked about, uh, CodePen a little bit in the intro.

[00:17:12] I was like, man, you know, there’s so much of this, so much of like new

[00:17:16] front end development stuff that if you’re coming in, it’s a little bit

[00:17:18] daunting to try to get like less or sass or Hamel or, you know, whatever

[00:17:23] CoffeeScript running locally, but in, in Copen, you just jump in there

[00:17:26] and go like each press a couple of buttons and you’re ready to roll.

[00:17:30] You know, that’s certainly one of the advantages of it is all

[00:17:32] those preprocessors.

[00:17:33] Yeah.

[00:17:33] It’s a little playground for that.

[00:17:35] You can just turn it on and now you’re writing in it.

[00:17:37] Yeah.

[00:17:37] I actually switched over to sass recently.

[00:17:40] Um, finally, and great move by the way, for anybody who’s wondering,

[00:17:45] but, uh, Copen was the way that I learned, uh, how to do sass,

[00:17:49] like coming over from less.

[00:17:51] And so, uh, so yeah, I mean, that was really valuable for me.

[00:17:55] I’m sure it’ll be valuable for plenty of the people listening too.

[00:17:58] I hope so.

[00:17:58] Yeah.

[00:18:00] Yeah.

[00:18:00] Thanks so much for having me on, man.

[00:18:01] It’s a real pleasure to get to chat.

[00:18:03] Absolutely.

[00:18:05] Thanks so much again to Chris for being on the show and thank you for listening.

[00:18:09] You are the reason that this show is created.

[00:18:11] So if you have any feedback for me, uh, anything you want to hear on

[00:18:15] the show and the topics you want to hear discussed, please send them my

[00:18:19] way, you can get at me on Twitter at at developer T or you can email

[00:18:23] me at developer T at gmail.com.

[00:18:27] If you are enjoying this show, please let us know by leaving

[00:18:31] a review and a rating in iTunes.

[00:18:33] That’s the best way to help other developers, just like you find developer T.

[00:18:39] Make sure you go and check out Chris’s stuff.

[00:18:42] Uh, Chris created CodePen.

[00:18:43] That’s CodePen.io.

[00:18:46] Uh, Chris also created CSS tricks, CSS-tricks.com.

[00:18:50] And then finally Shop Talk Show.

[00:18:52] That should be the next thing on your playlist, uh, for your

[00:18:56] podcast today, that’s ShopTalkShow.com.

[00:18:59] As always, you can find me on developer T.com.

[00:19:02] Uh, you can click contact up at the top, uh, of, of the developer T website.

[00:19:08] Uh, and until next time, as always, enjoy your tea.

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