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Part 3: An Elegant Puzzle Book Discussion w/ Will Larson

Summary

In this final part of a three-part interview, Will Larson, author of An Elegant Puzzle and engineering manager at Stripe, discusses key themes from his book on engineering management. The conversation focuses on the high-leverage impact managers have on the work experience of engineers and other team members.

Larson emphasizes the importance of moving beyond simply acknowledging diversity and inclusion as challenges, and instead taking concrete actions that create more equitable environments with better access to opportunity. He argues that small, intentional actions by leaders can set clear signals about priorities, which then amplify across organizations as others follow suit.

A significant portion of the discussion explores how leaders’ words and actions carry disproportionate weight and can become organizational lore, sometimes being repeated and embellished long after they were originally spoken. Both Larson and host Jonathan Cottrell share personal anecdotes about how seemingly minor comments or actions by leaders can have lasting impacts on relationships and perceptions.

The conversation concludes with reflections on the ongoing work of leadership development, including the importance of self-awareness through mechanisms like therapy, being mindful of evolving cultural norms around language and interaction, and understanding how to compensate for personal weaknesses rather than trying to eliminate them entirely.

Recommendations

Books

  • An Elegant Puzzle — Will Larson’s book on engineering management, described as containing about 250 pages of advice on leading effective, thoughtful engineering groups, with value for managers, tech leads, and senior engineers making management transitions.
  • The Model Thinker — Scott Page’s book mentioned by Jonathan Cottrell, which discusses concepts of micro actions and macro systems, particularly how individual preferences can aggregate to create unexpected systemic outcomes like segregation.

People

  • Scott Page — Author of ‘The Model Thinker’ whose course Jonathan Cottrell references when discussing how micro-level individual actions contribute to macro-level systemic effects in diversity and inclusion contexts.

Topic Timeline

  • 00:07:18 — What topic do you wish more people would ask about? — Will Larson expresses his passion for discussing concrete actions that improve diversity and inclusion, moving beyond just talking about it as a challenge. He mentions that his book covers specific approaches that have created more equitable environments with better access to opportunity. Larson emphasizes the importance of clear projects and showing up to represent priorities with time and presence.
  • 00:08:44 — Micro actions and macro systems in diversity — Jonathan Cottrell introduces the concept of micro actions contributing to macro systems from Scott Page’s “The Model Thinker” course. He discusses how individual preferences for diversity at a neighborhood level (wanting 40% similarity) can unexpectedly lead to segregation at scale. The conversation shifts to how small actions by leaders signal priorities and create precedents that amplify across organizations.
  • 00:11:59 — The amplified voice of leaders and organizational lore — The discussion focuses on how leaders’ words and actions carry disproportionate weight and become organizational lore. Cottrell notes that leaders’ statements often get repeated and embellished, sometimes persisting long after the leader’s views have evolved. Both share experiences where phrases or actions from years ago continue to influence organizational behavior despite no longer reflecting current beliefs.
  • 00:14:11 — Personal example of leadership impact — Cottrell shares a personal story from early in his management career where he made an offhand critical comment about code that was overheard by others, creating a lasting negative impact on his relationship with a team member. He contrasts how such comments might be taken lightly between individual contributors but carry significant weight when coming from a manager. This illustrates the heightened responsibility leaders have for their words and actions.
  • 00:15:43 — Consistency requirements for senior leaders — Larson discusses how senior leaders need exceptional consistency because their actions amplify so significantly across organizations. Even one bad interaction out of hundreds can define a leader’s reputation. He emphasizes the need for consistency in basics like interviews, coffee chats, and performance conversations as leaders gain seniority and leave a wider wake of influence behind them.
  • 00:17:59 — Self-awareness through organizational feedback — Larson describes how leadership at scale in large organizations builds self-awareness through mechanisms like biannual cultural reviews. He notes that reading feedback from large groups reveals frustrations about actions leaders didn’t realize were controversial. This feedback process creates awareness about how actions land differently than intended, similar to what therapy provides for personal growth.
  • 00:20:22 — Ongoing personal evolution for leaders — The conversation turns to the continuous work required for effective leadership as societal norms evolve. Larson mentions examples like becoming mindful about using “guys” as a gender-neutral term and adapting language choices. Both agree there’s no arrival point where personal growth is complete, and leaders must remain present to how their words and actions make people feel.
  • 00:23:02 — Compensating for weaknesses vs. fixing them — Cottrell suggests that rather than always trying to improve weaknesses, leaders should find ways to compensate for them or rely on others. Larson agrees but cautions against taking this too far into abdication rather than delegation. He shares personal examples of being introverted and not naturally seeking recognition, and how he’s learned to implement compensating mechanisms rather than trying to fundamentally change these aspects of himself.
  • 00:25:47 — Introducing ‘An Elegant Puzzle’ book — Larson describes his book “An Elegant Puzzle” as about 250 pages of advice on leading effective engineering groups. He emphasizes that it’s not just for managers but also valuable for tech leads, team leads, senior engineers mentoring others, and those transitioning to management. The book focuses on organizational decision-making, and Larson shares that feedback from purely technical readers has been positive about the value they’ve derived from it.

Episode Info

  • Podcast: Developer Tea
  • Author: Jonathan Cutrell
  • Category: Technology Business Careers Society & Culture
  • Published: 2019-07-10T09:00:00Z
  • Duration: 00:28:39

References

Podcast Info

Transcript

[00:00:00] It’s easy. I’ve certainly been very anxious at times in my career about how do I get to the next thing, the right thing. But there’s so many different paths to follow that will get you there that honestly, I think just, as you said, focusing, doing some good work, building some depth, just do that over and over and you’ll get someone really, really, really good.

[00:00:30] That was Will Larson on the last episode of Developer Tea. If you haven’t listened to the last two episodes, I encourage you to go back and listen. This is a three-part interview with Will Larson. Will is an engineering manager at Stripe, and he recently published the book, An Elegant Puzzle. It’s all about engineering management.

[00:00:47] But I encourage you, if you are an engineer of any level, or if you’re a manager, regardless of if you’re an engineer or not, there’s tons of value to be had in this book.

[00:00:58] Lots of

[00:00:59] value to be had in this book.

[00:00:59] Lots of

[00:01:00] practical advice on how to structure teams and the limitations on team sizing. Go and check it out. My name is Jonathan Cottrell, and you’re listening to Developer Tea. My goal on this show is to help driven developers like you find clarity, perspective, and purpose in your careers. Let’s get into the interview with Will Larson.

[00:01:18] I totally agree with that, with that advice, and kind of digging in and, you know, taking the time to kind of be mindful, right, and slow down a little bit.

[00:01:29] I totally agree with that, with that advice, and kind of digging in and slow down a little bit.

[00:01:59] I totally agree with that.

[00:02:29] I totally agree with that.

[00:02:59] I totally agree with that.

[00:03:29] I totally agree with that.

[00:03:59] I totally agree with that.

[00:04:29] I totally agree with that.

[00:04:59] I totally agree with that.

[00:04:59] I totally agree with that.

[00:04:59] I totally agree with that.

[00:05:29] I totally agree with that.

[00:05:59] I totally agree with that.

[00:06:29] I totally agree with that.

[00:06:59] I totally agree with that.

[00:07:00] I totally agree with that.

[00:07:00] I totally agree with that.

[00:07:03] But, you know, I think that the experience, the work experience for engineers and really in almost every discipline, managers are going to have a kind of a lever, a high leverage impact on that working experience.

[00:07:15] Okay, I have one more question for you, Will.

[00:07:18] What is one thing that you wish more people would ask you about?

[00:07:23] I think, I think something that…

[00:07:29] that I’ve really learned a lot about and really feel quite passionate about that I don’t get to

[00:07:35] talk to people about as much as I’d like to is how we go from kind of talking about inclusion

[00:07:40] and diversity as a challenge. Like what are the specific actions that we’ve taken that have

[00:07:47] actually like made things meaningfully better? And so a lot of the book covers several of these

[00:07:52] things that have like moved the experience for folks that I’ve gotten to work with and made it

[00:07:59] a more consistent, a more kind of equitable environment with like more access to opportunity.

[00:08:05] And I think this is such an important topic. And so often we kind of get stuck on

[00:08:10] this is a problem, but what can I do? And really, I think there are just so many clear things that

[00:08:18] you can do, clear projects, clear access to critical projects, ensuring that you show up

[00:08:25] to kind of communities and represent with your time.

[00:08:29] Where your priorities are. So just two, but there’s just so many things we can do that actually

[00:08:35] matter to folks and actually make results. And I think this is a conversation I’d love to be having

[00:08:41] more and more with people across the industry.

[00:08:44] This is something I’ve been thinking a lot about recently, partially because I’m taking a class,

[00:08:51] kind of an online course in models. And it turns out that, well, the course is kind of

[00:08:59] called The Model Thinker, or I guess that’s the name of the book, but it’s Scott Page’s course

[00:09:04] on the subject. And in the course, he discusses this idea of kind of micro actions and macro

[00:09:13] systems. So our individual actions that may contribute to a larger effect that we wouldn’t

[00:09:20] have necessarily predicted. And I think it’s important that we think about diversity and

[00:09:26] inclusion from both of those angles.

[00:09:29] From both the kind of the micro interactions that we have, the kind of one-on-one interactions or

[00:09:37] even within a team. But then also thinking, especially for people who are in some managerial

[00:09:44] role where you’re shaping the environment in some way, thinking about how all of those micro

[00:09:50] interactions actually culminate to a macro effect. What is happening at a broader scale

[00:09:59] and one of the explanations he provides is basically an interaction model where you have

[00:10:07] people who are generally okay with their neighborhood being diverse, right? People who

[00:10:14] essentially look different from them. They want 40% of their neighbors to look like them,

[00:10:22] right? So this seems reasonable at first glance. It seems that these people are okay

[00:10:29] with having a diverse neighborhood. They also want to identify with the people who are like them

[00:10:36] as well. And it turns out that that actually creates a segregation model. And you wouldn’t

[00:10:43] expect it by looking at that individual value set. You wouldn’t expect it by looking, you would

[00:10:49] kind of try to apply this 40% across the board. But because of the way that everything aggregates

[00:10:57] together, there’s uncertainty. There’s uncertainty. There’s uncertainty. There’s uncertainty. There’s

[00:10:59] unexpected results, right? So I think we should be at a kind of a company level. We should be

[00:11:08] looking at how those individual actions and interactions end up aggregating at the company

[00:11:15] level. I think you’re right that, for example, one of the powers of small actions about inclusion,

[00:11:23] but really anything, is that they set the clear signal that it’s a priority.

[00:11:29] And then that causes other people to make larger actions and to make their own small actions,

[00:11:34] where sometimes the small things are just creating the precedent, creating the visibility,

[00:11:40] the awareness, even if they don’t do a whole lot themselves, showing the time that’s been spent,

[00:11:47] I think can have huge impact, particularly when it’s like senior folks doing it.

[00:11:50] And each thing a senior person does really kind of amplifies across an organization.

[00:11:57] Yeah, I absolutely agree with that.

[00:11:59] That’s another thing that I learned when I was in a manager role, that the kind of the voice

[00:12:06] of a manager, the voice of a leader is often repeated. This is something that’s unique for

[00:12:13] people who are leaders. When you say something, it’s very likely that whatever you said will get

[00:12:18] repeated. And unfortunately, often it will be embellished, not necessarily on purpose, but

[00:12:25] meaning will be drawn from whatever.

[00:12:29] you say. And so, and that’s, that’s not just, you know, vocalizing, explaining. It’s not just

[00:12:36] about your words, but it’s also about your actions. And what do those actions mean? People

[00:12:40] are looking at the leaders to, to understand, you know, what is this company? What are our values

[00:12:49] collectively? What is our culture collectively? And we take those cues in particular from leadership.

[00:12:56] I think that’s exactly right. I’ve definitely, I’ve definitely, I’ve definitely, I’ve definitely, I’ve

[00:12:59] definitely have the experience. And I’m sure, I’m sure you have as well, where someone kind of

[00:13:03] parrots back to you something that someone said a few years ago as a reason not to do something or

[00:13:09] a reason they’re doing something. You’re like, well, like, I know the person who said that. I

[00:13:13] know they’re thinking about that. And that’s like no longer what they believe today. But because

[00:13:17] there is this kind of meme that’s propagated, it can be quite hard to kind of untangle things that

[00:13:23] are clearly no longer true. Potentially were never even true to your point about embellishment,

[00:13:27] but that have just become part of like the,

[00:13:29] the organizational lore. Yeah, lore is a big deal, right? Because it’s driven off of this

[00:13:34] illusion that a manager, a leader, whenever they say something, they’ve thoroughly

[00:13:39] thought out, you know, whether or not they actually believe it. They know exactly what

[00:13:47] they’re saying at all times. They know how people will take it and they intend it. And

[00:13:52] very often that’s just simply not the case. And leaders have the same kind of communication

[00:13:59] breakdowns that people who are not leaders have. And so, yeah, I’ve seen that happen as well,

[00:14:04] where one phrase, in fact, I’ve done this before when I was a manager, particularly young in my

[00:14:11] managerial career. I walked up behind one of the people that I was working with, a good friend of

[00:14:17] mine, friends even to this day. And I said something along the lines of that code is

[00:14:24] terrible, which is the worst thing, by the way, that a manager can say to somebody.

[00:14:29] In particular, if other people can overhear it. And I remember, you know, him holding on to that

[00:14:36] moment for a really long time, even after I had apologized fairly profusely for my misstep. I knew

[00:14:45] pretty immediately that wasn’t an effective way to help. And, you know, what would have been taken

[00:14:53] when I was an IC as, oh, who cares, right? Who cares? We’ll write the code.

[00:14:59] And we’ll kind of ping back and forth and share our opinions. That was taken more as a judgment

[00:15:04] of that person. And that can be a very long lasting kind of scar on the relationship.

[00:15:14] And that’s, you know, that’s just a symbol of how effective your actions and words are when

[00:15:23] you’re a leader. And going back to our previous discussion, that high level of responsibility,

[00:15:29] right? And why it’s so important to be more intentional as a leader with what you say and

[00:15:37] what you do. I think intentional is right, but also just the level of consistency required to

[00:15:43] be a senior leader, where because these things kind of amplify so much, where even if you’re

[00:15:49] just having a bad interaction, one out of 100 interactions, you can be then defined by that.

[00:15:55] And so to me, something I’ve been thinking about a lot is as you get more,

[00:15:59] senior, the consistency of the basics that you have to have, just your ability to have,

[00:16:05] you know, interview, like 300 people and have all of them have a good experience with you,

[00:16:11] your ability to have, you know, like 600 coffee chats with kind of co workers,

[00:16:16] have all of them have like a good experience with you, your ability to have 15 hard performance

[00:16:21] conversations, and for no one to feel like it’s a personal attack, but instead kind of objective,

[00:16:29] fair, and just like, even small kind of misses or kind of to our earlier conversation about

[00:16:34] one bad thing outweighing like all the goods when you’re thinking about kind of metrics for

[00:16:39] incidents or whatnot. I think the same thing is equally true for kind of our interactions as we

[00:16:43] start to leave a wider wake behind us in our seniority.

[00:16:48] I 100% agree with that the, the same kind of mental hooks apply in the opposite direction,

[00:16:56] not just when we as,

[00:16:59] managers are evaluating the performance of our direct reports, but also when people are watching

[00:17:07] us and those moments, those individual speeches, those minutes in time. I like to think about that

[00:17:14] as, you know, there’s, there’s seconds that we remember, even those seconds become incredibly

[00:17:21] important. And, you know, this is with a group of people who, uh, they are not in,

[00:17:29] intentionally trying to walk away from that, right? Where we have to, we have to recognize that

[00:17:35] this isn’t, this isn’t something that, you know, the average worker is going to try to create a

[00:17:40] system to properly evaluate leadership. They’re going to continue evaluating

[00:17:46] leadership in that normal human way of remembering those one out of hundred events.

[00:17:53] Yeah. It’s funny, I think that is right. Right to evaluate that’s right. War, war, I think

[00:17:59] It’s funny, part of designing these performance systems is like we kind of think about how should we be evaluated. And it’s interesting. So Stripe, like most companies has these kind of biannual kind of cultural reviews, where we kind of have people kind of rate themselves on a bunch of different questions, like, you know, how likely are you to work here in three years, and also leave comments.

[00:18:22] And I think one of the interesting things is, as you start reading these comments from increasingly large groups, is there are people who are frustrated about stuff you’re doing, that you didn’t think anyone would ever be frustrated about, you’re like, but I just did this very reasonable thing.

[00:18:38] And so I think, really, leadership at scale in a large organization builds this level of self awareness, that I think almost nothing else can.

[00:18:48] Maybe therapy is like therapy and leading a large org or like two.

[00:18:52] Great ways to just build this level of awareness about the things you’ve done that you thought were not controversial, or thought landed really well.

[00:19:01] And then seeing kind of a long tail of feedback, like, nope, actually, a bunch of people were pissed about that when you like didn’t even notice at the time that anything didn’t didn’t work.

[00:19:11] Yeah, that’s great advice.

[00:19:13] And, and definitely, I think a lot of leaders find out that therapy is perhaps a better avenue or faster.

[00:19:22] Avenue to to finding self awareness that maybe you can use in in your career.

[00:19:27] And I have, you know, that’s, I say that in jest, but I absolutely believe that therapy and things like therapy are really helpful to virtually everyone.

[00:19:40] But particularly if you are someone who is who’s in this kind of position where a lot of eyes are on you, and a lot of stress is put on you, then then, you know,

[00:19:52] be quick to, to kind of dive in and dig in, to understand yourself and become more self aware.

[00:20:00] I think that’s a, you know, rather than allowing the the leadership failures that may occur, that you may experience, rather than those being your teacher, go ahead and seek it out, kind of actively on the front end.

[00:20:17] You know, working, working on ourselves is really core, I think.

[00:20:22] But there’s never this place where you get to where you’re like, I’m done, like, I’ve done, I’ve done the work, I think, you know, societal norms have evolved a lot since since I was a child, and have evolved a lot of like, really important and wonderful ways.

[00:20:37] But, you know, we have to learn to like, internalize these, these changes, we have to be thoughtful about things that we did when we were growing up that, like word choice, like, using guys as a quote, unquote, gender neutral term, and kind of getting people to understand themselves.

[00:20:52] That level of mindfulness about kind of the words that we use, and just continuing to evolve, like how we interact, on how we present and not getting comfortable with how things used to work, but instead being continually present, and how things are evolving, and how we make people feel when they’re around us.

[00:21:09] And that ongoing work and investment in ourselves is, I think, one of the things that is kind of defining for effective leadership.

[00:21:18] Yeah, and I think, I mean, it’s true.

[00:21:20] And an ongoing.

[00:21:22] It’s an ongoing way, because we’re not in a static environment, right?

[00:21:25] We’re continuously learning more about culture around us, and our place in that culture.

[00:21:32] And because we continue to grow, there’s still always more to learn.

[00:21:37] And so digging in, and, you know, you mentioned using guys as a term, and I’m probably, I’m pretty sure I’m guilty of that on this episode.

[00:21:46] So, so there is no arrival point, even when you do have that self awareness.

[00:21:50] You know,

[00:21:51] I’ve done a lot of these episodes and I’m very self-aware about some things about my grammar,

[00:21:57] for example, right? But there’s also going to always be more growth that can occur that is

[00:22:05] just about accepting some of the ways that you tend to fail, some of the ways that you generally

[00:22:16] have weaknesses, right? And then finding ways to deal with those, not necessarily always becoming

[00:22:22] better in those areas. That may not necessarily be the best strategy for you, but instead finding

[00:22:27] ways to make up the gap where you need to. Maybe that means relying on someone else.

[00:22:34] Certainly, we’re not talking about allowing a weakness of insensitivity towards others to

[00:22:41] continue. That’s something that you absolutely can work on. But sometimes,

[00:22:46] we have a profile of skills and we should be focusing on ways to complement other people

[00:22:53] with the things that we’re good at, rather than always trying to figure out, you know,

[00:22:57] how do I have to get better at this particular weakness?

[00:23:02] Yeah, I totally agree. I think that there is sometimes this desire to like, I’m bad at this

[00:23:09] thing or I don’t like doing this work, so hire someone else to do it for me. And I think you can

[00:23:15] go a little bit further than that. I think that’s a good way to do it.

[00:23:16] Too far that way, sometimes, where I think you can kind of not do work you need to be doing and

[00:23:21] kind of justify it by saying you’ve delegated it. There’s kind of abdication versus delegation and

[00:23:27] kind of, I think, important to be thoughtful about that. But there are certain things that

[00:23:32] I’ve just found that I’m not very good at. And I just don’t, because of like, what personally is

[00:23:39] important to me, a good example of this is, I really believe in kind of doing great work and

[00:23:45] then kind of, you know, doing it for myself. And I think that’s a good way to do it.

[00:23:45] Being quiet about it. Like the work is its own reward. And then I think that puts me in a spot

[00:23:52] where I’m not very good at kind of getting recognition for the org that I’m that I’m

[00:23:56] leading. So how being more mindful about that. Conversely, like, I’m quite introverted. So at

[00:24:03] the end of the day, like, I have no desire to kind of go to a team off site, I just want to go home.

[00:24:08] And so there, I never scheduled these sorts of like bonding off sites that people really love

[00:24:13] and really get a lot of value out of.

[00:24:15] And so there are certain places where just like recognizing where how you’re wired is preventing

[00:24:20] you from kind of being naturally good, and finding compensating kind of mechanisms to make sure that

[00:24:26] you don’t just not schedule off sites, not just kind of forget to tell anyone because you think

[00:24:33] it’s kind of vain to kind of talk about the accomplishments or something like that.

[00:24:37] Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s an excellent point. And, and knowing where that line is,

[00:24:42] knowing what things can we be more mindful and

[00:24:45] intentional about? And what things do we truly, you know, never expect to really change about our

[00:24:51] core, our core selves, you don’t expect to suddenly overnight, no longer be an introvert.

[00:24:57] And, and you don’t expect to suddenly, I may not expect to suddenly overnight, stop being the kind

[00:25:05] of question asker, right? And the investigative type where I’m always looking for, you know, the

[00:25:13] kind of a

[00:25:15] an alternative way of looking at something. And that can be a strength and it can be a weakness,

[00:25:20] just like introversion can be a strength and a weakness.

[00:25:24] Well, I really I could keep on talking to you, I realized we’ve gone way over our plans time at

[00:25:29] this point. But I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this. And I’d love for you

[00:25:33] to take a moment and do the thing you just said you’re not very good at doing. And talk to us a

[00:25:40] little bit about your book where I where we can find it and who is, you know, who is it really

[00:25:43] for? Who should be?

[00:25:45] Going and buying this book today.

[00:25:47] So an elegant puzzle, you can find it on Amazon’s easiest place to get it. It’s, you know, about 250

[00:25:54] pages of advice on how to lead effective, thoughtful and just kind of engineering groups. And it’s not

[00:26:04] just about leading as a manager, I think there’s lots of ways to lead and almost everything in

[00:26:09] there, I think, is going to resonate to kind of a tech lead, a team lead, a senior engineer who’s

[00:26:15] mentoring, making a manager transition. Really, it’s about decision making. And these are

[00:26:21] typically organizational decisions. But but really, I think, I hope, insofar the feedback I’ve gotten

[00:26:27] from folks who have read it, who who come from kind of the pure technical track, have gotten some

[00:26:32] value out of it. So an elegant puzzle by Will Larson, I, I’ve been really, really just like,

[00:26:38] super excited by the feedback so far. So that a lot of people think it’s a good book, and hopefully,

[00:26:45] hopefully, readers or listeners, I suppose, will will as well.

[00:26:48] So yeah, I thought that was, that was very well done. And I think you talk perfectly,

[00:26:53] perfectly balanced about your own work that you’re proud of. So I absolutely agree,

[00:27:00] this book is excellent for developers, really, of almost any level, who are interested in,

[00:27:07] you know, building effective teams. So it’s got kind of an official, official endorsement

[00:27:15] on this podcast, for sure. And just to be clear, Will and Stripe have not, you know,

[00:27:20] compensated me in any way for this, for this interview, or, or the discussion on the book.

[00:27:25] Will, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me on the show.

[00:27:30] Likewise, thank you so much for having me. I think these are such important topics. And just

[00:27:34] getting the opportunity to chat about them with you has been fantastic.

[00:27:38] Another huge thank you to Will Larson for joining me on DeveloperTea. And thank you for listening to

[00:27:43] today’s episode.

[00:27:44] If you found this interview helpful or valuable in any way, even if you found one thing that’s

[00:27:50] going to change your career in some positive way, then I encourage you to subscribe in whatever

[00:27:55] podcasting app you use. This show is totally free. It always has been. We’re four and a half years

[00:28:00] into making this show. And if you come out with something that’s going to, to impact your career

[00:28:06] in a positive way, I believe that it’s a worthwhile trade, that, that bit of time that you spend

[00:28:12] listening to this show.

[00:28:14] Of course, this show wouldn’t be possible without spec.fm. Go and check it out, spec.fm. This is a

[00:28:20] network of podcasts, including this one, built for designers and developers who are looking to level

[00:28:26] up in their careers. Go and check it out, spec.fm. Thank you so much for listening. And until next

[00:28:31] time, enjoy your tea.

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