Vox

Leitura de 65 min

The case for not killing yourself

Summary

Sean Illing hosts a profound and candid conversation with philosopher and author Clancy Martin, who has attempted suicide over ten times. Martin discusses his new book, ‘How Not to Kill Yourself: A Portrait of the Suicidal Mind,’ which blends personal memoir with philosophical inquiry. He describes experiencing suicidal ideation from as early as age six, initially believing everyone felt the same way. The conversation delves into the societal dishonor and stigma surrounding suicide, with Martin critiquing the moral blame often assigned to those who attempt or die by suicide.

Martin frames his relationship with suicide as an addiction—a habitual pattern of thinking used to escape mental suffering. He explores the paradox of simultaneously wishing for death and being glad his attempts failed. Key to his recovery has been reframing his thinking, cultivating patience, and learning to accept himself as he is, rather than holding onto a rigid, idealized self-image. He discusses the influence of philosophers like Albert Camus and the Buddha’s parable of the two darts, which distinguishes between unavoidable suffering and our reaction to it.

The latter part of the conversation focuses on practical advice for those experiencing suicidal thoughts. Martin emphasizes the importance of changing one’s physical space (like taking a walk), reaching out for human connection (even via a simple text), and the power of small, positive acts like smiling at a stranger. He argues that while the right to one’s own life is fundamental, suicide is almost always a bad choice, and that things which feel irrevocably bad are subject to change. The episode concludes with a life-affirming message about solidarity, compassion, and the unpredictable nature of life.

Recommendations

Books

  • How Not to Kill Yourself: A Portrait of the Suicidal Mind — Clancy Martin’s own book, which is the central subject of the episode. He wrote it explicitly for people who struggle with suicidal thoughts and includes practical help sections at the end.
  • The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus — Referenced in the conversation, Camus’s work frames suicide as the fundamental philosophical question and argues for scorn and defiance in the face of the absurdity of life.
  • Works by Fyodor Dostoevsky — Mentioned by Martin as an author who, like Camus, concluded that helping others and compassion are key responses to suffering and meaninglessness.
  • Works by William Styron — Cited for his description of depression as being caught in ‘a state of unrealistic hopelessness,’ a phrase Illing and Martin discuss as particularly apt.

Concepts

  • The Buddha’s Parable of the Two Darts — A teaching Martin uses to explain his framework of suffering: the first dart is unavoidable pain, and the second dart is our reaction. Managing the second dart is key to coping with suicidal thinking.
  • The National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline (988) — Repeatedly mentioned as a critical resource. Listeners are encouraged to call or text 988 to connect with someone who can talk and listen if they are struggling with suicidal thoughts.

People

  • Diane Williams — An avant-garde short story writer who gave Martin the advice to ‘feel more sorry for yourself,’ which he found profoundly helpful in accepting pain rather than fighting it.
  • Emil Cioran — A Romanian philosopher referenced by Martin who would tell people contemplating suicide, ‘What’s your hurry? You can always do it tomorrow,’ an approach that often provided relief.

Topic Timeline

  • 00:03:27 — Introducing Clancy Martin and his lifelong struggle — Sean Illing introduces guest Clancy Martin, a philosophy professor and author who has attempted suicide at least ten times. Martin’s new book, ‘How Not to Kill Yourself,’ is a personal and philosophical exploration of the suicidal mind, written explicitly for people who share his struggles. The conversation is framed as an attempt to discuss suicide honorably and provide resources.
  • 00:07:51 — The origins of suicidal thinking in childhood — Martin reveals that his earliest memories, from around age two or three, include a feeling of wanting to die. By age six, he had a robust conception of wanting to kill himself and believed everyone else felt the same way but was keeping it a collective secret. He was shocked to learn that not everyone experienced this desire, highlighting how deeply ingrained and normalized these thoughts were for him from the very beginning.
  • 00:15:45 — Suicide as an addiction and the Buddha’s two darts — Martin explains his framework of understanding suicide as an addiction—a patterned response to mental suffering. He references the Buddha’s parable of the two darts: the first dart is unavoidable suffering, and the second dart is our reaction to it. For Martin, suicide became the dominant ‘second dart’ or escape route from the pain of being himself, a pattern he has had to work to break.
  • 00:21:14 — Impatience and the urge for hasty transformation — The discussion turns to impatience as a key trait of the suicidally inclined. Martin quotes James Hillman: ‘Suicide is the urge for hasty transformation.’ He contrasts this with the Lao Tzu teaching that ‘nature never hurries, and yet everything is accomplished.’ Cultivating patience and the ability to wait is presented as a crucial skill for managing suicidal impulses, as mental states are temporary and will change.
  • 00:25:16 — Albert Camus, absurdity, and finding meaning — After a break, Illing asks about Albert Camus’s philosophy of the absurd and whether it resonated with Martin. Martin describes a two-stage process: first, he had to change his core belief that suicide was a good thing for him. Once that shifted, he could appreciate Camus’s argument for scorn and defiance in the face of meaninglessness. He connects this to Dostoevsky’s and Cervantes’s insights about compassion, solidarity, and the ability to laugh at the human condition.
  • 00:34:06 — Being addicted to a false idea of oneself — Martin elaborates on being ‘addicted to Clancy’—meaning he was invested in a rigid, idealized, and ultimately contemptuous version of himself. Recovery involves letting go of this dogmatic self-image and accepting the ‘plain old ordinary Clancy’ with more compassion, similar to how he views his children. He identifies dogmatism and the need for control as central drivers of his suicidal thinking.
  • 00:47:36 — The advice to ‘feel more sorry for yourself’ — Martin shares some of the best advice he ever received, from writer Diane Williams: when he apologized for feeling sorry for himself, she told him to ‘feel more sorry for yourself.’ He interprets this through the lens of the two darts: the first dart is the pain, and the second, problematic dart is the judgment and fight against that pain. Acceptance, rather than resistance, is key to easing mental suffering.
  • 00:50:24 — Practical advice for someone contemplating suicide — Illing asks what Martin would say to someone currently contemplating suicide. Martin offers two immediate pieces of advice: 1) Change your physical space—get up, go outside, and take a walk (avoiding bridges). 2) Reach out for human contact—text anyone, or call/text 988. He stresses the need to ‘open the blinders’ of narrowed thinking and reminds listeners that ‘everything in your life is totally fixable except for making the attempt.’
  • 00:54:42 — The stoic argument: ‘You can always kill yourself tomorrow’ — Martin shares the stoic argument that the door is always open, so there’s no hurry. He references philosopher Emil Cioran, who would tell people, ‘What’s your hurry? You can always do it tomorrow.’ This perspective often provided relief and prevented action. Martin encourages taking one more day, doing something simple and positive like giving an unexpected smile to a stranger, and seeing what happens.
  • 00:55:50 — Addressing profound loneliness and isolation — Illing poses a crucial question: what about people who are truly alone, with no family or friends? Martin responds by offering himself as a contact and emphasizes that many people feel this way. He argues that by sticking it out, a person may unexpectedly help others in the future. He concludes with a core message: life is unpredictable, and the current suffering, however permanent it feels, will change.

Episode Info

  • Podcast: The Gray Area with Sean Illing
  • Author: Vox
  • Category: Society & Culture Philosophy News Politics News Commentary
  • Published: 2023-06-12T12:39:00Z
  • Duration: 00:57:58

References

Podcast Info

Transcript

[00:00:00] Support for this show comes from the Working Forests Initiative.

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[00:00:31] You can learn more at workingforestinitiative.com.

[00:00:57] We call this the only serious philosophical question.

[00:01:00] To be or not to be, as someone else once put it.

[00:01:03] We don’t choose to be born into this world.

[00:01:07] But we do have the power to decide to leave it.

[00:01:13] And people do make this choice.

[00:01:16] A lot.

[00:01:18] The CDC estimates there were 1.7 million suicide attempts in the year 2021,

[00:01:23] in the U.S. alone.

[00:01:27] Perhaps more staggering is the estimation that more than 12 million Americans

[00:01:32] reported thinking seriously about suicide in that same year.

[00:01:36] Given how widespread those thoughts are,

[00:01:39] and how obviously urgent this issue is,

[00:01:42] it’s unfortunate that, as a society,

[00:01:45] we really aren’t able to talk about suicide in a more dignified way.

[00:01:50] Many of us still think of those who die by suicide as morally blameworthy.

[00:01:57] When a celebrity takes their own life, we think,

[00:01:59] why?

[00:02:00] They had everything.

[00:02:02] And what we mean by that is that we think certain other people’s lives are great and worth living.

[00:02:08] And we’re puzzled by their choice to not live.

[00:02:12] The novelist David Foster Wallace describes suicide as akin to jumping from a burning building,

[00:02:19] writing,

[00:02:19] It’s not desiring the fall.

[00:02:22] It’s terror of the flames.

[00:02:24] It’s a vivid description from someone who,

[00:02:27] in 2008,

[00:02:28] decided for himself

[00:02:30] and took his own life.

[00:02:35] And look, before I go any further here,

[00:02:38] I should say,

[00:02:39] we’re going to have a real conversation about suicide on the show today.

[00:02:43] And while this conversation is going to include some candid talk of what it’s like to have suicidal thoughts,

[00:02:49] it will also include many resources and strategies for coping with those thoughts

[00:02:53] from a guest who has lived his whole life with what he calls

[00:02:56] a suicide.

[00:02:57] But if you’re struggling with thoughts of suicide and think this episode might not be for me right now,

[00:03:04] turn it off.

[00:03:06] And as I mentioned at the top,

[00:03:07] dialing 988 will connect you to the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline,

[00:03:12] where there will be someone real on the other end who will talk with you and listen.

[00:03:19] I’m Sean Elling, and this is The Gray Area.

[00:03:27] Today’s guest is Clancy Martin.

[00:03:38] He’s a professor of philosophy at the University of Missouri in Kansas City,

[00:03:42] and he’s written a number of books,

[00:03:44] including a hit novel in 2009 called How to Sell.

[00:03:48] And he’s also tried to kill himself at least 10 times.

[00:03:53] His new book is called How Not to Kill Yourself.

[00:03:57] A Portrait of the Suicidal Mind.

[00:03:59] The book approaches this very serious philosophical question

[00:04:02] through deeply honest personal reflection about his own experience with suicide.

[00:04:09] Clancy has not only spent his life thinking about suicide,

[00:04:12] he’s spoken to a ton of other people who have as well.

[00:04:15] And the book is full of the wisdom and resources that he has to offer.

[00:04:19] As he says in the preface,

[00:04:21] Clancy wrote the book explicitly for people like him

[00:04:24] who struggle with the desire to kill themselves.

[00:04:27] And he includes sections at the end that offer direct help

[00:04:30] for those who are currently in the midst of these thoughts.

[00:04:35] But I wanted to start by asking him about what he calls

[00:04:38] our society’s fundamentally dishonorable relationship with suicide.

[00:04:46] We like to pretend that we are overcoming the stigma

[00:04:52] and the taboo against suicide in our culture.

[00:04:56] And we like to pretend that we are overcoming the stigma

[00:04:57] and I think we are making some improvements on it.

[00:05:01] But a friend of mine who’s one of the most famous living feminist philosophers

[00:05:05] wrote to me to say she’d appreciated the book.

[00:05:09] And the reason she said she appreciated the book so much

[00:05:11] is she had always thought, truly believed,

[00:05:15] that suicide was something that privileged white men did.

[00:05:19] It was a problem of someone who had no other problems

[00:05:22] and so kind of worried himself into this,

[00:05:26] as she described it,

[00:05:27] extremely selfish act.

[00:05:30] And I was amazed by this email

[00:05:31] because this is a person who’s ten times smarter than I am.

[00:05:35] She’s such an excellent philosopher

[00:05:37] to have such a confused view about what it is like

[00:05:42] to suffer from suicidal thinking,

[00:05:46] to die by suicide,

[00:05:47] from such a prominent and important intellectual.

[00:05:50] This is the dishonorableness of our view of suicide in our culture.

[00:05:56] I mean,

[00:05:56] when we have something like a 72-hour lockdown,

[00:06:00] this is really called a 51-50 hold

[00:06:03] and it’s when someone makes an attempt and fails

[00:06:05] and then they won’t release you from the care of the hospital

[00:06:09] or wherever you are for 72 hours.

[00:06:13] It’s a holdover of what we used to do to failed suicides,

[00:06:16] which is just incarcerate them for varying degrees of time.

[00:06:20] And the ways in which suicides have been treated

[00:06:24] and the families of suicidal people

[00:06:26] that have been treated,

[00:06:26] over the years,

[00:06:28] is absolutely disgraceful.

[00:06:30] And we like to pretend that we’ve gotten past that way of thinking

[00:06:33] that suicide is a sin,

[00:06:35] that suicide is incredibly selfish.

[00:06:37] You know, there’s something morally blameworthy

[00:06:39] about the person who attempts suicide

[00:06:41] or would even consider attempting suicide.

[00:06:43] We like to think we’ve gotten past that,

[00:06:45] but we haven’t.

[00:06:46] And to try to think about it

[00:06:50] and speak about it honorably

[00:06:51] is not only to recognize the truth

[00:06:54] that, as the World Health Organization,

[00:06:56] tells us at least 10% of the world population

[00:07:00] suffers from chronic suicidal ideation.

[00:07:02] That’s, you know, coming up on nearly a billion people.

[00:07:06] And the truth that it’s a leading cause of death

[00:07:09] around the world and in certain populations,

[00:07:13] the number one or the number two cause of death,

[00:07:16] the solution to this problem

[00:07:18] is dealing with it in an honorable way.

[00:07:22] That is to say,

[00:07:24] allowing people to talk about it,

[00:07:26] to admit to it,

[00:07:28] to reach out for help,

[00:07:29] and also being willing to help people.

[00:07:33] I want to talk a little bit about you

[00:07:34] because this book is a document

[00:07:37] in many ways of your struggles with suicide

[00:07:40] and your many, thankfully unsuccessful,

[00:07:43] attempts to kill yourself.

[00:07:46] How early did this start for you?

[00:07:51] For me, Sean, it’s strange,

[00:07:55] although I have,

[00:07:56] friends who report the same thing,

[00:07:59] but my earliest memories,

[00:08:01] memories that must come from two or three years old

[00:08:05] because I remember my parents were still married,

[00:08:08] memories of like the color of the carpet

[00:08:10] and having this feeling that I wanted to die,

[00:08:13] maybe not having the conception of killing myself yet,

[00:08:15] but very much having the feeling of wanting to die.

[00:08:19] And then by the time I get to some sort of,

[00:08:22] something like continuity of memory

[00:08:24] at around age four or five,

[00:08:26] and definitely by age six,

[00:08:28] then having a robust conception of,

[00:08:30] okay, I want to,

[00:08:32] I don’t just want to die,

[00:08:33] I actually want to kill myself.

[00:08:35] And then for me,

[00:08:37] until quite recently,

[00:08:40] all of my experience has been

[00:08:44] colored, let’s say,

[00:08:48] by this desire to take my own life.

[00:08:51] And as a daily thing,

[00:08:53] always, every day,

[00:08:56] you know,

[00:08:56] you know,

[00:08:56] you know,

[00:08:56] you know,

[00:08:56] you know,

[00:08:56] you know,

[00:08:56] you know,

[00:08:56] you know,

[00:08:56] you know,

[00:08:56] not always every day,

[00:08:57] all day long thinking,

[00:08:58] okay, I’m going to try to kill myself,

[00:09:00] but never having a day go by

[00:09:02] when I didn’t think,

[00:09:04] okay, yeah,

[00:09:04] I want to kill myself.

[00:09:06] As early as six, really?

[00:09:08] Absolutely.

[00:09:09] No question about it.

[00:09:10] And the funny thing was,

[00:09:11] I thought that everybody thought this way

[00:09:13] and just nobody was talking about it.

[00:09:15] But I thought that every,

[00:09:16] all my friends were feeling the same way.

[00:09:18] My parents were feeling the same way.

[00:09:20] My brothers and sisters were feeling the same way.

[00:09:22] And we were all just like,

[00:09:23] kind of collectively keeping this secret.

[00:09:26] That we all wanted to kill ourselves.

[00:09:28] And I remember when I first learned

[00:09:30] everybody didn’t want to kill themselves.

[00:09:32] I was,

[00:09:33] well, I actually,

[00:09:34] I didn’t believe it.

[00:09:34] I thought they were lying to me.

[00:09:36] And it was hard for me to accept

[00:09:39] that everybody didn’t feel this way.

[00:09:42] How many times over the course of your life

[00:09:44] have you attempted?

[00:09:46] Well, more than 10 that I’ve made,

[00:09:50] you know,

[00:09:51] a really earnest attempt.

[00:09:53] And I think fewer than,

[00:09:56] 20 that have resulted in

[00:09:58] some kind of consequence.

[00:10:01] It’s a little bit of a tricky thing to define

[00:10:04] because I went through a period of time

[00:10:07] when I was in the luxury jewelry business

[00:10:09] and we all owned guns.

[00:10:12] So I would try to kill myself every day.

[00:10:16] And this, I mean, every day for months.

[00:10:20] Now, I count that as one time.

[00:10:24] So it depends, you know,

[00:10:26] what counts as an attempt.

[00:10:28] I mean, you know,

[00:10:31] I see myself as a kind of ridiculous figure

[00:10:34] in the history of suicide.

[00:10:35] Now, I will tell you,

[00:10:37] I have met people who’ve tried more times

[00:10:39] than I have in the psychiatric hospital.

[00:10:43] And I remember this one young woman in particular

[00:10:47] who had made multiple attempts,

[00:10:51] you know, more than 20 attempts.

[00:10:53] And we slowly became friends

[00:10:55] in the psychiatric hospital.

[00:10:56] And she was so helpful to me

[00:10:59] because I could see how perfect she was.

[00:11:03] I mean, how irreplaceable,

[00:11:05] how priceless a person she was, you know,

[00:11:07] and how much she needed to live

[00:11:10] and deserved to live

[00:11:11] and how good she was.

[00:11:13] She was just being way too hard on herself

[00:11:15] in every conceivable way.

[00:11:17] And she really helped me to start to see,

[00:11:20] like, if only I could look at myself

[00:11:23] in that way, you know.

[00:11:25] Yeah.

[00:11:25] She’s helped me when talking to other suicidal people.

[00:11:29] I always tell them, you know,

[00:11:30] imagine how you probably look to the people around you.

[00:11:34] You think of yourself with such loathing,

[00:11:37] but that’s not how the people around you

[00:11:39] are thinking of you.

[00:11:40] Well, I mean, it also speaks,

[00:11:42] and I suppose there is a real lesson

[00:11:44] in the fact that, and you talk about this,

[00:11:47] you had the worst year of your life in 2009.

[00:11:52] Your first big book is published.

[00:11:55] All this applause and acclaim and admiration,

[00:11:58] you know, you made it.

[00:11:59] And then that immediately gives way

[00:12:01] to crippling depression, you know.

[00:12:05] And it’s a reminder that all the success in the world

[00:12:08] isn’t immunity against these kinds of demons,

[00:12:12] which is why it shouldn’t surprise us

[00:12:15] when someone like an Anthony Bourdain,

[00:12:17] who you write about in the book,

[00:12:19] decides to take his own life.

[00:12:21] Things can seem perfect from the outside,

[00:12:23] or someone can seem to have everything,

[00:12:25] going for them,

[00:12:26] but you have no fucking idea

[00:12:28] the hell that may be going on inside their own mind.

[00:12:32] Yeah, that’s exactly right.

[00:12:34] And also, what you think of as external good things,

[00:12:40] this person has, you know, as you say,

[00:12:42] every possible advantage, everything going for them,

[00:12:45] everything that you want even, you see,

[00:12:47] this person has and you don’t have.

[00:12:50] None of those things necessarily have anything to do with

[00:12:54] what you’re doing.

[00:12:55] Whether or not that person actually wants to live

[00:12:58] or feels like they are capable of going on living

[00:13:00] or relate in any sort of meaningful way

[00:13:03] to the mental suffering they might be enduring.

[00:13:06] Let me ask you, you say in the book

[00:13:09] that you’ve lived all your life, or most of your life,

[00:13:11] with two incompatible ideas in your own head.

[00:13:16] I wish I were dead, and I’m glad my suicides failed.

[00:13:19] Now, I’d like to think that after a while,

[00:13:24] the fact that I’m not dead,

[00:13:24] the fact that I’m not dead,

[00:13:24] the fact that I’m not dead,

[00:13:24] the fact that I’m not dead,

[00:13:24] the fact that I’m not dead,

[00:13:24] the fact that I’m not dead,

[00:13:24] the fact that I’m not dead,

[00:13:25] the fact that you’re continually glad

[00:13:27] your suicide attempts have failed

[00:13:30] would make you less inclined to suicide.

[00:13:33] But it hasn’t.

[00:13:34] Why not?

[00:13:36] Yeah, it’s a good observation.

[00:13:39] And it’s right at the very heart

[00:13:41] of the paradox of suicidal thinking.

[00:13:45] The thing is, speaking for myself

[00:13:48] and for, you know, many people I’ve talked to

[00:13:51] about their suicidal thinking,

[00:13:53] you can look around you at the people who need you,

[00:13:59] the people who depend on you,

[00:14:01] the people you are so grateful to have in your life,

[00:14:04] the people you love and you hope they love you,

[00:14:07] and feel this enormous gratitude

[00:14:10] and feel so glad that you didn’t die.

[00:14:15] And yet, when your thinking goes,

[00:14:18] suddenly going in a bad direction,

[00:14:21] that thinking goes,

[00:14:23] that thinking starts to turn on itself

[00:14:25] and you slowly but surely,

[00:14:27] or sometimes very quickly,

[00:14:29] become convinced that all of these good things in your life

[00:14:32] are things that you don’t deserve,

[00:14:34] that the people you love would be better off without you,

[00:14:38] that the proof that you are willing to consider

[00:14:40] exiting this life because you’re in such mental suffering

[00:14:43] is a further demonstration of the fact

[00:14:45] that they would be better off without you.

[00:14:48] You think, oh, it might be six months or a year

[00:14:50] that they think to themselves,

[00:14:51] oh, I wish dad hadn’t…

[00:14:53] killed himself,

[00:14:53] but after that,

[00:14:54] they’ll be so much better off

[00:14:56] without this poisonous person around them.

[00:14:58] There’s a variety of paradoxes

[00:15:01] that go with suicidal thinking,

[00:15:02] and this is one of the worst ones, I think.

[00:15:06] This is such an honest book,

[00:15:09] and I really want to meet you there

[00:15:13] in this conversation.

[00:15:15] And, you know,

[00:15:15] I don’t think I’ve ever been truly suicidal,

[00:15:20] though I’d be lying if I said

[00:15:21] the thought has changed.

[00:15:22] It hasn’t occurred to me before.

[00:15:25] But I do deal with depression,

[00:15:28] particularly the last five, six, seven years.

[00:15:31] And you write in the book,

[00:15:33] and now I’m quoting you,

[00:15:34] that I have come to understand

[00:15:35] that I am addicted to the thought of suicide,

[00:15:39] and that lately I am what we might call

[00:15:42] a recovering suicide addict.

[00:15:45] I have never heard suicide defined in that way before,

[00:15:49] and I would love for you to explain

[00:15:51] why you think of that,

[00:15:52] suicide as an addiction,

[00:15:54] and how that framing has helped you understand

[00:15:58] your own mind, really.

[00:16:01] Yeah, it’s a wonderful question.

[00:16:03] Thank you so much.

[00:16:04] And I think, again, it’s, for me,

[00:16:06] it’s at the very heart of suicidal thinking

[00:16:09] and a way out of suicidal thinking.

[00:16:13] The Buddha teaches this parable of the two darts,

[00:16:17] and it’s one of the more famous parables of the Buddha.

[00:16:20] And the first dart is the dart of suffering,

[00:16:22] and the second dart is the reaction

[00:16:26] we have to the suffering.

[00:16:29] And the Buddha says that

[00:16:33] we can’t do anything about that first dart.

[00:16:36] That is just part of the way life is.

[00:16:38] There’s going to be all kinds of suffering.

[00:16:40] The second dart, however, we can do a lot about.

[00:16:43] We ultimately, in the Buddha’s way of thinking,

[00:16:46] are in control of the second dart.

[00:16:49] Now, when it comes to how we react,

[00:16:52] to suffering,

[00:16:54] you will notice that we have these kinds of patterns of beliefs

[00:16:58] and patterns of behavior that we apply

[00:17:01] to the different kinds of suffering that we experience.

[00:17:05] There are all sorts of different patterns that people have.

[00:17:07] One of the most familiar and one of the most widely discussed

[00:17:10] in the existentialist literature on suffering

[00:17:13] is the habit of distraction.

[00:17:15] You know, you’re in some kind of mental pain,

[00:17:16] so you distract yourself away from that pain.

[00:17:20] Now, for some people,

[00:17:22] the pattern of thinking to all kinds of different pain,

[00:17:28] panic, stress they have in their life

[00:17:30] is to run away from it.

[00:17:33] And for lots of us, I think,

[00:17:34] when we experience pain,

[00:17:35] you know, one expects this.

[00:17:38] You put your finger in a fire

[00:17:39] and, boy, you pull your finger out, right?

[00:17:41] So it’s a natural thing

[00:17:42] when you’re experiencing a certain kind of pain.

[00:17:46] But it’s tricky when it’s mental pain.

[00:17:49] You know, when the suffering is mental,

[00:17:51] you’re experiencing,

[00:17:52] experiencing that kind of suffering.

[00:17:54] And so for someone like me,

[00:17:57] you experience this mental pain

[00:17:59] and you think to yourself,

[00:18:01] how can I run away from this mental pain?

[00:18:03] It’s with me wherever I go.

[00:18:04] It is me.

[00:18:05] It’s myself.

[00:18:06] And you start to think,

[00:18:08] there’s only one way for me to escape the pain that is myself,

[00:18:12] and that’s to turn me off.

[00:18:14] And you think, turning me off, how do I do that?

[00:18:17] Well, there’s a few different ways.

[00:18:20] One is getting really, really drunk.

[00:18:22] Used to work for me for a long time,

[00:18:25] then stopped working.

[00:18:26] People get addicted to all kinds of substances

[00:18:29] for this reason, I think,

[00:18:30] for this, like, wanting to escape the pain of being themselves.

[00:18:33] Another way is suicide.

[00:18:35] And for me, the dominant pattern from a very early age

[00:18:38] became suicide as the way of, you know,

[00:18:41] that’s my solution to this problem.

[00:18:43] And so I had to start to break that pattern.

[00:18:46] I love the line from William Styron.

[00:18:49] He describes extreme depression,

[00:18:51] depression as being caught, quote,

[00:18:53] in a state of unrealistic hopelessness.

[00:18:57] And unrealistic feels like the key word there, don’t you think?

[00:19:03] I mean, that thing that you’re feeling,

[00:19:05] that quicksand that you’re stuck in,

[00:19:07] like, no matter how intense or dark,

[00:19:09] it won’t last, but it is so hard to see that in the moment.

[00:19:14] And it sounds kind of like what you’re describing here.

[00:19:17] Yeah, no, I think that’s exactly right.

[00:19:20] The hope, I think,

[00:19:21] for someone who suffers from any kind of addictive response

[00:19:27] to mental suffering is that trying to remember

[00:19:31] that these things go in waves, you know,

[00:19:34] trying to remember,

[00:19:35] this is why I particularly worry about young people,

[00:19:40] because it’s easier to remember

[00:19:43] that there is sun behind the clouds

[00:19:45] if you’ve been through this experience a few times.

[00:19:49] But if it’s your first time or your second,

[00:19:51] maybe you’re incapable of knowing

[00:19:55] that this depression that is so intense right now

[00:19:59] is going to pass.

[00:20:00] And one of the things that is funny

[00:20:03] that all of us notice, I think,

[00:20:05] is that when it comes to the good feelings that we experience,

[00:20:09] they tend to feel a little tentative.

[00:20:11] They tend to have a kind of lack of confidence about them.

[00:20:14] But the really bad things that we experience,

[00:20:17] they tend to feel so sure of themselves.

[00:20:19] Isn’t that the truth?

[00:20:21] Man.

[00:20:21] That really is the truth.

[00:20:22] Yeah.

[00:20:23] Isn’t it the simple truth?

[00:20:24] Like when you’re angry, you think,

[00:20:26] okay, finally now I am speaking the truth.

[00:20:29] Yeah.

[00:20:29] Your happiness feels tentative,

[00:20:31] but your depression feels final and irrevocable

[00:20:35] and absolutely certain.

[00:20:36] So it’s just,

[00:20:38] it’s a hard thing to be able to wait that out.

[00:20:42] But for me,

[00:20:43] this is one of the most important skills

[00:20:46] that a person who suffers from suicidal thinking

[00:20:49] can cultivate is to try to cultivate

[00:20:51] the skill of patience

[00:20:52] and to recognize that

[00:20:54] one of the greatest virtues

[00:20:57] a person can have

[00:20:59] is just the ability to wait.

[00:21:01] If you can really try to let yourself wait,

[00:21:07] things will almost always

[00:21:09] take care of themselves and or improve.

[00:21:12] Yeah, you actually write in the book,

[00:21:14] this really landed with me.

[00:21:17] I’ve been sort of thinking about it since,

[00:21:20] you know, you talk about impatience,

[00:21:21] as a trait characteristic of the suicidally inclined.

[00:21:25] And there’s a quote in there from James Hillman.

[00:21:28] Suicide is the urge for hasty transformation.

[00:21:32] And it explains so much.

[00:21:35] Yeah, doesn’t it?

[00:21:36] I mean, it really,

[00:21:38] if you talk, I think,

[00:21:39] to any suicidal person

[00:21:40] or a person who’s struggled with suicidal ideation,

[00:21:43] they will understand.

[00:21:44] Yeah, hasty transformation,

[00:21:46] the urge for hasty transformation.

[00:21:48] Exactly.

[00:21:49] And if you can try,

[00:21:51] try to remember not to be hasty.

[00:21:54] As Lao Tzu says,

[00:21:56] nature never hurries,

[00:21:57] and yet everything is accomplished.

[00:21:59] I mean, I try to tell myself that every day.

[00:22:01] Nature never hurries,

[00:22:03] and yet everything is accomplished.

[00:22:14] Albert Camus,

[00:22:15] who we brought up a little earlier,

[00:22:17] also has a lot to say about the absurdity of life.

[00:22:20] After a quick break,

[00:22:21] I’ll ask Clancy whether Camus’ philosophy has helped him.

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[00:25:16] There’s a passage in Albert Camus’

[00:25:18] The Myth of Sisyphus, which you reference,

[00:25:20] as one must,

[00:25:22] in a book about this subject,

[00:25:24] where he’s talking about this experience

[00:25:26] that someone has

[00:25:27] when they confront the absurdity

[00:25:30] of their own existence.

[00:25:32] He says it’s like a stage set collapsing.

[00:25:35] You know, there’s this rupture

[00:25:36] and suddenly you can feel very intensely

[00:25:38] the nothingness under your feet

[00:25:41] and it spreads quickly to your whole life.

[00:25:42] You realize the inanity of the routines

[00:25:45] that make up your day-to-day.

[00:25:47] And if you sit with those thoughts for long enough,

[00:25:48] it can unravel you.

[00:25:49] And I think a lot of us,

[00:25:50] have experienced something like this.

[00:25:52] I know I have.

[00:25:53] And I know you’ve read that book

[00:25:55] where he describes suicide

[00:25:57] as the most important philosophical question

[00:26:01] or the fundamental philosophical question.

[00:26:04] Did that book and his account of suicide

[00:26:06] resonate with you?

[00:26:08] Did it help you make sense of your own battles?

[00:26:12] You know, it’s interesting.

[00:26:13] It’s been helping me more and more.

[00:26:16] For me, it was sort of a two-stage process

[00:26:19] to be totally…

[00:26:20] clear and honest about how I think

[00:26:22] my relationship with suicidal thinking has gone.

[00:26:26] And the first stage,

[00:26:28] I really had to change the belief that I had

[00:26:32] that was a very deep core belief of mine

[00:26:34] that suicide was a good thing,

[00:26:36] that suicide was the right thing for me.

[00:26:39] This idea was just really deep in my psyche.

[00:26:44] Once that belief changed or started to change,

[00:26:49] then my mind began to open up to arguments like Camus

[00:26:55] when Camus says, for example,

[00:26:58] that there is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.

[00:27:03] Years ago, I didn’t find this to be a satisfactory response.

[00:27:07] But after having done the work

[00:27:09] that went into writing this book

[00:27:11] and the kind of self-examination that was involved

[00:27:15] and self-confrontation that was involved

[00:27:17] in writing this book

[00:27:18] and thinking about,

[00:27:19] anyone being able to see these aspects of me

[00:27:22] and the ways in which I had failed,

[00:27:24] failed as a human being,

[00:27:26] failed as a father,

[00:27:27] failed in all these different ways.

[00:27:31] Then I started to be able to let go of this idea

[00:27:35] that suicide was a good thing.

[00:27:37] And I started to realize,

[00:27:38] no, suicide is in fact a bad thing for me,

[00:27:41] even if I still sometimes feel it’s a lure.

[00:27:43] And then I can see what Camus means.

[00:27:46] Yeah, we all get that.

[00:27:48] The inane,

[00:27:49] the seemingly purposelessness of all of these things.

[00:27:53] And yet, the fact that nevertheless,

[00:27:55] in the face of all of this apparent meaninglessness,

[00:27:58] that we continue to demand meaning

[00:28:00] and the pain we experience in that conflict,

[00:28:04] though I’ll still feel the pull of suicide some days,

[00:28:09] I can say, you know what?

[00:28:10] I apologize for my language,

[00:28:12] but fuck you.

[00:28:13] Fuck you, suicide.

[00:28:15] You might be really wanting to take me.

[00:28:18] You can’t have me.

[00:28:19] I’m sorry.

[00:28:20] Can you tell me about that pull?

[00:28:22] Because one of the things that’s interesting

[00:28:23] that you do in this book and that is valuable is,

[00:28:26] and it’s something I’ve really only encountered in fiction,

[00:28:29] particularly some of Dostoevsky’s books,

[00:28:31] where you’re almost describing

[00:28:33] this kind of inner dialogue with yourself,

[00:28:36] where you’re almost convincing yourself

[00:28:37] that you don’t deserve to live.

[00:28:41] And is the pull more this feeling

[00:28:44] that there’s no sort of reason for living?

[00:28:47] There’s no reason for going on?

[00:28:48] Or is it more,

[00:28:48] you just start to feel that you’re not worthy of living?

[00:28:52] I think it can be both.

[00:28:54] For me, I think it has generally been

[00:28:58] absolutely a feeling of worthlessness.

[00:29:01] If you look at the literature on suicide,

[00:29:05] you will find so many different reasons.

[00:29:08] But one or another kind of worthlessness

[00:29:10] is definitely a common theme

[00:29:14] to so much of the literature.

[00:29:17] But also,

[00:29:18] in so many of the,

[00:29:21] even the very oldest texts that we have on suicide,

[00:29:24] you find the same complaint

[00:29:26] that life itself just doesn’t provide

[00:29:29] the kind of meaning that one wants from life.

[00:29:31] And so we’re going to reject life.

[00:29:34] And this is the particular concern

[00:29:37] that Camus is worrying about.

[00:29:39] And I think he is right

[00:29:42] when he insists that our ability

[00:29:47] to live is not our ability to live.

[00:29:48] to live is not our ability to live.

[00:29:48] To recognize that life

[00:29:52] is not going to provide us

[00:29:54] with the kind of meaning that we want,

[00:29:55] and yet we are going to continue to insist

[00:29:58] on needing that meaning,

[00:30:00] that somehow in that tension,

[00:30:03] there is this kind of creative space

[00:30:06] where human beings

[00:30:09] will be able to develop

[00:30:11] a very particular kind of flourishing.

[00:30:14] Now, Camus gives different accounts

[00:30:17] of what that,

[00:30:18] what flourishing might look like.

[00:30:19] But my favorite,

[00:30:21] and this is the exact same conclusion

[00:30:22] that Dostoevsky comes to,

[00:30:24] is that helping other people,

[00:30:26] compassion,

[00:30:28] the recognition that we’re all suffering together.

[00:30:32] Solidarity.

[00:30:32] Yeah, solidarity, exactly.

[00:30:35] Like, okay, you’re really going through it.

[00:30:38] I’m really going through it.

[00:30:39] We’re all really going through it.

[00:30:41] So, you know,

[00:30:42] what’s the same thing to do in that case

[00:30:44] is to try to help each other.

[00:30:46] And also maybe, you know,

[00:30:47] this is something,

[00:30:48] this is something that Cervantes gets right.

[00:30:50] It also ought to be, I think,

[00:30:52] a fit subject for laughing at ourselves.

[00:30:54] You know, that like,

[00:30:55] hey, we desperately want this meaning.

[00:30:58] This meaning is not available.

[00:30:59] I mean, it’s kind of a comical situation.

[00:31:02] And I have to be able to laugh at myself,

[00:31:05] you know, because anybody

[00:31:06] who’s tried to kill himself

[00:31:07] as many times as I have

[00:31:09] and has failed,

[00:31:11] and some of the methods I’ve used,

[00:31:13] I should say,

[00:31:13] are pretty reliable.

[00:31:15] I mean, nevertheless,

[00:31:18] you know,

[00:31:19] I’m still,

[00:31:21] I’m still here.

[00:31:22] It’s really kind of against the odds.

[00:31:25] If I can’t laugh at myself,

[00:31:27] it really has been pointless.

[00:31:30] You know,

[00:31:32] Toys T. A. T. S. thought that

[00:31:33] we all needed some reason for living,

[00:31:36] some higher transcendent purpose.

[00:31:39] I’m not sure about that.

[00:31:40] And I don’t know if you are either.

[00:31:41] I mean, I guess a lot turns on

[00:31:43] what we mean by reason.

[00:31:45] I don’t think we need a story

[00:31:46] that justifies life

[00:31:48] or a story about life after death.

[00:31:50] But I do think we need love.

[00:31:52] I do think we need a source of meaning

[00:31:54] outside ourselves.

[00:31:55] And I do think we need the capacity

[00:31:57] to pay attention to things that matter

[00:31:59] and turn away from things that don’t.

[00:32:02] Is that kind of where you land

[00:32:04] at the end of all this?

[00:32:05] I think it’s, yeah,

[00:32:07] I think that’s exactly where I land.

[00:32:09] And I think we have to be

[00:32:12] a little more nimble

[00:32:14] than we have a tendency to be

[00:32:17] when,

[00:32:18] when it comes to our thinking

[00:32:19] about this question of meaning.

[00:32:23] It seems to me

[00:32:25] that we have a kind of habit of thinking

[00:32:27] that our ordinary material environments

[00:32:30] are dictating to us

[00:32:33] the terms of our existence.

[00:32:35] But this is so obviously false.

[00:32:38] It’s all the vast realms

[00:32:41] of our interior lives

[00:32:42] that are really revealing to us

[00:32:46] what matters.

[00:32:48] And once you recognize that,

[00:32:51] then you might realize

[00:32:52] that the briefest little experience

[00:32:55] like a glancing up

[00:32:56] and seeing a hummingbird

[00:32:57] outside the window of your office

[00:32:59] or a kiss between you

[00:33:03] and someone you love

[00:33:04] or the tiniest little momentary things

[00:33:08] could matter vastly more

[00:33:11] than, you know,

[00:33:12] how much money you have

[00:33:13] in your checking account

[00:33:14] or what kind of house that you live in

[00:33:16] or all these extras,

[00:33:18] external things, you know.

[00:33:19] We already kind of actually know

[00:33:21] that they do.

[00:33:22] It’s just that we get so confused.

[00:33:24] So I think it’s already there

[00:33:27] waiting for us.

[00:33:28] We’re just,

[00:33:29] we have so many habits of thought

[00:33:32] that mislead us away

[00:33:34] from what is right in front of us,

[00:33:36] you know.

[00:33:37] I mean, I think that goes back

[00:33:38] to what you were saying about patience.

[00:33:41] That’s a profound observation.

[00:33:43] And I imagine this is an impulse

[00:33:45] I suspect we all share

[00:33:46] to one degree or another.

[00:33:48] This impulse to escape ourselves.

[00:33:52] And you mentioned this earlier,

[00:33:54] and this is something you write in the book,

[00:33:55] that you have been

[00:33:57] sort of working this idea out

[00:33:59] that you’re addicted to suicidal thinking,

[00:34:01] which is really just another way of saying,

[00:34:03] and now I’m quoting you,

[00:34:04] I’m addicted to Clancy.

[00:34:06] Right.

[00:34:06] I’m addicted to a certain idea

[00:34:07] of myself and my life.

[00:34:10] What does it mean to say

[00:34:12] you’re addicted to a certain idea

[00:34:14] of yourself?

[00:34:18] Well, what I mean is

[00:34:20] I had invested myself

[00:34:25] into this way of thinking about

[00:34:29] the kind of person I ought to be.

[00:34:32] A much more generous person than I am.

[00:34:35] A much more loving person than I am.

[00:34:38] A much kinder person than I am.

[00:34:40] A much more talented person than I am.

[00:34:43] A much more successful person than I am.

[00:34:46] All of these things.

[00:34:47] I had,

[00:34:47] I committed myself to this idea

[00:34:51] of this other Clancy.

[00:34:53] And this other Clancy

[00:34:55] would look back at the Clancy that I am

[00:34:58] with contempt

[00:34:59] and deep disappointment.

[00:35:03] And what I had to start to do,

[00:35:06] and this is something

[00:35:07] that’s very much an ongoing thing for me,

[00:35:10] is to start to let go

[00:35:13] of that idea of Clancy.

[00:35:16] To kind of start to try to discover

[00:35:20] the actual Clancy as he actually exists.

[00:35:23] You know, just the plain old ordinary Clancy.

[00:35:26] And as I have just barely begun on that project,

[00:35:30] then I realize,

[00:35:32] oh, I can start to accept that guy

[00:35:35] in something more like

[00:35:38] the way I can accept other people.

[00:35:40] When I don’t want them to be

[00:35:42] someone other than they are, you know.

[00:35:44] I often, you know,

[00:35:46] I often think

[00:35:46] my goal for myself,

[00:35:48] but here I go again,

[00:35:50] is to try and view

[00:35:52] the human beings around me

[00:35:55] the way that I view my children.

[00:35:57] You know, if I could just look at

[00:35:58] all the human beings around me

[00:36:00] the way I look at my children,

[00:36:02] there again, so much fear,

[00:36:04] so much judgment,

[00:36:05] so much dogmatism

[00:36:06] vanishes from my life.

[00:36:09] Yeah, but do you think that’s realistic though, Clancy?

[00:36:11] Do you think any of us are

[00:36:12] capable of that?

[00:36:14] Well, see there,

[00:36:15] that’s what I’m saying.

[00:36:15] There,

[00:36:16] I go again,

[00:36:16] I’m like now again

[00:36:17] creating some kind of Clancy that,

[00:36:19] not that it’s not worth aspiring to,

[00:36:21] I just,

[00:36:23] man.

[00:36:23] But no, you’re exactly right, Sean.

[00:36:25] You’re pointing to me

[00:36:27] that it’s that kind of thinking

[00:36:28] that will make me suicidal, you know.

[00:36:31] And I’ll say,

[00:36:32] there he goes,

[00:36:32] he’s failing to do that.

[00:36:34] Fucking it up again,

[00:36:35] there I go.

[00:36:35] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:36:36] The real trick is like

[00:36:38] trying to be able to accept myself

[00:36:40] a little bit more

[00:36:41] in the way that I accept my own children.

[00:36:44] If I can do that,

[00:36:46] even just a little bit,

[00:36:47] you know,

[00:36:48] I say this prayer every day

[00:36:49] and every night before I go to bed

[00:36:51] and every morning when I get up,

[00:36:53] I say this prayer that includes the line

[00:36:55] and make me a little less selfish.

[00:36:58] And I love that

[00:37:00] a little less part of it, you know.

[00:37:02] Yeah.

[00:37:02] That’s absolutely key, I think.

[00:37:05] I’ve got to stop being so dogmatic.

[00:37:08] It’s the dogmatism that’s going to kill me,

[00:37:10] you know.

[00:37:11] And I don’t want to go to my grave

[00:37:12] a dogmatist too.

[00:37:13] I hope that I can die a natural death now.

[00:37:15] I hope that I can now die

[00:37:16] however it comes out.

[00:37:18] But I’d rather not die by suicide.

[00:37:20] And I think there’s now maybe,

[00:37:21] knock on wood,

[00:37:22] don’t want to jinx myself,

[00:37:23] some kind of hope that I could

[00:37:24] not die by suicide.

[00:37:26] And if that is the case,

[00:37:29] God preserve me from

[00:37:30] being a dogmatist as I go, you know.

[00:37:33] Well, the dogmatism,

[00:37:34] that’s interesting to me.

[00:37:36] And I don’t want to say at any point

[00:37:38] in this conversation,

[00:37:39] and you don’t say this in the book,

[00:37:40] that you’ve conquered your demons

[00:37:42] in that sense.

[00:37:42] I mean, the whole point is that

[00:37:43] you’re always going to be a recovery.

[00:37:45] Right.

[00:37:46] Suicide addict.

[00:37:48] But you have learned some things

[00:37:49] along the way that have helped you,

[00:37:51] that are helping.

[00:37:52] And you wrote this near the end.

[00:37:54] You said,

[00:37:54] for me being too dogmatic

[00:37:56] about my beliefs

[00:37:57] has often led to feelings

[00:37:59] of helplessness and anguish.

[00:38:00] So in the past few years,

[00:38:01] I’ve been trying to be

[00:38:02] less sure of myself,

[00:38:03] less confident about what I think

[00:38:04] I know.

[00:38:07] How has becoming less rigid

[00:38:08] in your personality

[00:38:10] and also in sort of your view

[00:38:12] of the world,

[00:38:13] less certain about what you think

[00:38:15] you know,

[00:38:15] how has that helped you

[00:38:17] with this challenge?

[00:38:19] It’s helped me so much

[00:38:20] because it’s helped me

[00:38:22] to kind of liberate myself

[00:38:24] from this right and wrong

[00:38:26] way of thinking

[00:38:27] where I always wind up

[00:38:29] seeing that there’s something

[00:38:30] wrong with me, you know.

[00:38:32] If I’m unsure,

[00:38:34] if I really don’t know,

[00:38:35] then it’s much easier

[00:38:37] for me to say,

[00:38:38] well, and I really don’t know

[00:38:39] about whether I am to blame

[00:38:42] or whether there’s something

[00:38:44] wrong with me

[00:38:45] or there’s something

[00:38:46] so contemptible about me.

[00:38:48] For me, the flip side

[00:38:50] of feeling certain about things

[00:38:53] is Clancy is failing

[00:38:55] at all of these things.

[00:38:57] Clancy is causing

[00:38:57] all this unhappiness

[00:38:58] to other people.

[00:38:59] But as I feel less certain,

[00:39:02] then I’m sort of like,

[00:39:03] well, you know, I don’t know.

[00:39:05] Maybe, maybe not.

[00:39:07] It’s a much easier space.

[00:39:09] And we’re talking about

[00:39:11] the urge for hasty transformation.

[00:39:14] Well, if I don’t know,

[00:39:15] Right.

[00:39:15] you know, if I’m just kind of open

[00:39:17] to being right, being wrong,

[00:39:20] whatever, I genuinely don’t know,

[00:39:21] well, then there’s nothing

[00:39:22] I really have to change.

[00:39:24] I’d be sort of foolish

[00:39:25] to suppose I had to change something

[00:39:27] because I don’t know,

[00:39:28] you know, I mean, who knows?

[00:39:30] So it’s an incredibly

[00:39:31] liberating thing.

[00:39:33] It helps you let go of control.

[00:39:35] And once you don’t feel

[00:39:38] so much need to control,

[00:39:40] well, the ultimate,

[00:39:41] the ultimate control

[00:39:42] is the desire to kill yourself

[00:39:44] and the making the attempt

[00:39:45] to kill yourself.

[00:39:46] You know, there is no more robust

[00:39:48] notion of taking control than that.

[00:39:52] But if you’re uncertain,

[00:39:53] then you don’t really want

[00:39:54] to control things so very much.

[00:39:56] You know, it’s helpful

[00:39:57] as a parent too, honestly.

[00:40:00] Yeah, there’s liberation

[00:40:01] and that’s surrender, right?

[00:40:03] Yeah, exactly.

[00:40:04] Yeah.

[00:40:04] Once you realize,

[00:40:06] I only, you know,

[00:40:07] I do my best to provide

[00:40:09] kind of the warmest arms

[00:40:10] I can for these kids.

[00:40:12] Other than that, you know,

[00:40:13] it’s going to have to work out

[00:40:15] the way it works.

[00:40:15] But then you’re a lot

[00:40:19] less freaked out.

[00:40:20] Yeah, I mean,

[00:40:21] talking about your kids,

[00:40:23] this is something you discuss

[00:40:24] in the book,

[00:40:25] that your family becomes

[00:40:27] a source of strength and purpose.

[00:40:29] And you start to realize

[00:40:30] that your own well-being

[00:40:32] and every sense of the word

[00:40:33] really is interwoven with theirs.

[00:40:37] And, you know,

[00:40:38] I think about this a lot

[00:40:40] and I’m not sure

[00:40:41] if I’ve really been able

[00:40:42] to integrate it

[00:40:44] into my actual life.

[00:40:45] But there is no doubt

[00:40:47] in my mind,

[00:40:49] absolutely no doubt,

[00:40:50] that the only thing

[00:40:51] that will matter to me

[00:40:53] at the end of my life

[00:40:54] is my family and my friends,

[00:40:57] it’s the relationships,

[00:40:59] and that none of my accomplishments

[00:41:02] will mean a thing.

[00:41:04] No one will care about

[00:41:05] any of the books I’ve written

[00:41:07] or my articles or this podcast.

[00:41:09] I mean, even when great writers,

[00:41:10] great artists,

[00:41:11] when they die,

[00:41:12] almost without exception,

[00:41:13] they’re rather quickly forgotten.

[00:41:15] And the world,

[00:41:15] it just keeps humming along.

[00:41:17] And to the extent

[00:41:17] that depression and suicide

[00:41:19] are events that occur

[00:41:20] inside our own heads,

[00:41:24] the answer seems to me,

[00:41:26] and I think it seems to you as well,

[00:41:27] that it’s almost always

[00:41:29] to get outside your own head,

[00:41:31] to throw yourself

[00:41:32] into your relationships,

[00:41:34] into the world.

[00:41:35] I love that Voltaire quote,

[00:41:36] that an almost infallible means

[00:41:38] of saving yourself

[00:41:38] from the desire of self-destruction

[00:41:40] is always to have something

[00:41:42] to do.

[00:41:43] Yeah.

[00:41:44] I love that, man.

[00:41:45] I love that.

[00:41:45] It’s true.

[00:41:47] We can recognize

[00:41:48] that sometimes selfishness

[00:41:51] is an incredibly important part

[00:41:54] of someone making a suicide attempt

[00:41:57] or dying by suicide

[00:41:59] without turning that

[00:42:01] into a moral judgment

[00:42:02] against the person

[00:42:03] who is making that attempt.

[00:42:04] After all,

[00:42:05] so much of what we do

[00:42:06] is selfish.

[00:42:07] But the key, then,

[00:42:09] for the person who feels suicidal

[00:42:11] is to recognize that connection

[00:42:14] with the person

[00:42:15] that you’re trying to save.

[00:42:15] And that’s the key.

[00:42:15] And that’s the key.

[00:42:15] And that’s the key.

[00:42:15] And that’s the key.

[00:42:15] And that’s the key.

[00:42:15] And that’s the key.

[00:42:15] And that’s the key.

[00:42:15] And that’s the key.

[00:42:15] And that’s the key.

[00:42:16] And that’s the key.

[00:42:16] And that’s the key.

[00:42:16] And that’s the key.

[00:42:16] And that’s the connection.

[00:42:17] Then there is this opportunity

[00:42:19] you realize,

[00:42:20] oh, yeah,

[00:42:21] well, maybe if I just

[00:42:23] let go of that feeling

[00:42:26] of Clancy mattering so much

[00:42:28] and worried about

[00:42:29] some other things,

[00:42:31] maybe then that desire

[00:42:33] to annihilate Clancy

[00:42:34] would subside.

[00:42:35] So you try it out.

[00:42:37] See if it works.

[00:42:38] And lo and behold,

[00:42:40] it does.

[00:42:41] Yeah, and I love

[00:42:42] the idea that comes up

[00:42:43] later in that final chapter

[00:42:45] that on some level,

[00:42:45] it really is essential

[00:42:48] to remind ourselves

[00:42:50] that we’re not special.

[00:42:52] Not really.

[00:42:52] Except, as you say,

[00:42:53] in the way that everyone’s special,

[00:42:54] which is that we’re all

[00:42:55] conscious, self-aware creatures.

[00:42:58] And all that really means

[00:42:59] is that you’re not special

[00:43:00] in your suffering

[00:43:01] or in your anxieties

[00:43:02] and your angst.

[00:43:03] Everyone has their inner demons.

[00:43:05] You’re not uniquely broken.

[00:43:08] And it’s part of the reason

[00:43:09] why I find this notion of suicide

[00:43:10] as a kind of addiction

[00:43:12] very useful

[00:43:13] because it helps me

[00:43:14] to realize that

[00:43:15] addiction isn’t necessarily

[00:43:17] a binary thing.

[00:43:19] Right, exactly.

[00:43:20] It is more like a habit

[00:43:21] or impulse.

[00:43:22] And it’s near universal,

[00:43:23] isn’t it?

[00:43:24] Addiction is a kind of continuum

[00:43:25] and we’re all on it somewhere

[00:43:26] in our own different ways

[00:43:28] with our own various addictions.

[00:43:31] Exactly.

[00:43:32] That’s 100% right.

[00:43:34] And then once you recognize that,

[00:43:35] once you recognize

[00:43:36] that it’s a continuum

[00:43:37] and that everyone

[00:43:37] is on this continuum

[00:43:39] with their own addictions

[00:43:40] of all different kinds,

[00:43:42] beliefs themselves

[00:43:43] are really just addictions.

[00:43:45] Then I think you can see,

[00:43:49] oh yeah,

[00:43:50] it isn’t on or off.

[00:43:52] It isn’t binary as you say.

[00:43:54] And so it’s okay to exist

[00:43:56] in that gray space.

[00:43:58] You know,

[00:43:59] you can let yourself be

[00:44:00] a little bit.

[00:44:02] And as soon,

[00:44:02] once you let yourself be

[00:44:03] a little bit,

[00:44:05] once you stop fighting

[00:44:06] the addiction so hard,

[00:44:07] you will find that the addiction

[00:44:09] starts loosening its grasp on you,

[00:44:12] loosening up a little bit.

[00:44:13] It isn’t so much

[00:44:15] in control of you

[00:44:16] as you had supposed.

[00:44:27] We’ve got to take

[00:44:28] one last quick break.

[00:44:30] But when we come back,

[00:44:31] Clancy tells me

[00:44:32] some of the best advice

[00:44:33] he says he’s ever gotten.

[00:44:45] We’ll be right back.

[00:45:15] Not to be a more patient,

[00:45:17] attentive and gracious

[00:45:18] husband and father

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[00:47:36] You got some advice

[00:47:37] from a friend once.

[00:47:39] You were going through

[00:47:40] a hard time

[00:47:40] and you reached out

[00:47:42] and then apologized

[00:47:43] saying,

[00:47:43] I’m just feeling

[00:47:44] sorry for myself.

[00:47:45] And they told you,

[00:47:46] no, no, no.

[00:47:47] Feel sorry for yourself.

[00:47:49] They actually said,

[00:47:50] feel more sorry for yourself.

[00:47:52] And you said

[00:47:53] that was some of the best advice

[00:47:54] you’ve ever been given.

[00:47:55] I’d love to know why.

[00:47:57] Yeah.

[00:47:57] That’s Diane Williams,

[00:47:59] possibly America’s

[00:48:00] greatest living avant-garde

[00:48:02] short story writer

[00:48:03] who taught me so much

[00:48:04] about writing.

[00:48:05] And Diane said,

[00:48:06] yeah, never say

[00:48:07] that you shouldn’t feel

[00:48:09] sorry for yourself.

[00:48:10] Feel more sorry for yourself.

[00:48:12] And the reason

[00:48:13] that I’m sorry for myself

[00:48:14] is that I thought

[00:48:14] this was so profound

[00:48:16] as it has to do

[00:48:17] with this question

[00:48:18] we’ve been talking about

[00:48:19] throughout our conversation

[00:48:20] about acceptance,

[00:48:22] you know,

[00:48:23] really about this

[00:48:24] second dart.

[00:48:25] The first dart

[00:48:26] in this instance

[00:48:27] is the feeling

[00:48:29] sorry for yourself,

[00:48:30] the pain of feeling

[00:48:31] sorry for yourself.

[00:48:32] And the second dart,

[00:48:33] the problematic one,

[00:48:34] is when I’m like,

[00:48:35] oh no,

[00:48:35] I shouldn’t be feeling

[00:48:37] that way.

[00:48:37] I shouldn’t allow myself

[00:48:38] to feel that way.

[00:48:40] And Diane was just

[00:48:41] so right.

[00:48:42] Like, no,

[00:48:43] of course,

[00:48:44] if you’re feeling

[00:48:45] sorry for yourself,

[00:48:45] feel sorry,

[00:48:46] feel sorry for yourself

[00:48:47] as you need to feel,

[00:48:49] you know.

[00:48:50] It’s hard to be

[00:48:51] a human being.

[00:48:52] Accept the fact

[00:48:53] that it’s hard.

[00:48:53] Feel sorry for yourself.

[00:48:55] Say like,

[00:48:56] holy Moses,

[00:48:57] it’s so hard

[00:48:58] and I, you know,

[00:48:59] life is just

[00:48:59] incredibly difficult.

[00:49:01] It’s when you start

[00:49:02] fighting it

[00:49:03] that you panic,

[00:49:04] you know.

[00:49:05] We have to find

[00:49:07] ways of getting past

[00:49:08] this fight or flight

[00:49:09] way of thinking.

[00:49:11] And it’s just,

[00:49:11] obviously,

[00:49:12] it’s written very deep

[00:49:13] into us

[00:49:14] and for, you know,

[00:49:14] I suppose,

[00:49:15] good evolutionary reasons.

[00:49:17] But it doesn’t work well

[00:49:19] when it comes to

[00:49:20] the question of

[00:49:21] mental pain

[00:49:22] and contemporary

[00:49:23] psychological life.

[00:49:24] We apply the same

[00:49:26] fight or flight

[00:49:27] to our thinking

[00:49:28] and because it’s all

[00:49:29] going on in your head,

[00:49:30] there’s nowhere to go.

[00:49:31] And then you panic

[00:49:32] and you start freaking out

[00:49:34] and the next thing you know,

[00:49:35] you’re in this spiral

[00:49:36] and if you’re a certain

[00:49:37] kind of person like me,

[00:49:38] it becomes a death spiral.

[00:49:40] And if you’re

[00:49:41] many other kinds of people,

[00:49:42] it’s an addiction

[00:49:43] often in another

[00:49:43] direction, you know.

[00:49:44] As I say,

[00:49:45] for the existentialists,

[00:49:46] it’s an addiction

[00:49:47] often to distraction

[00:49:48] and you totally forget

[00:49:50] about your own existence

[00:49:51] because you’re so

[00:49:51] busy with your Instagram

[00:49:53] or whatever it happens

[00:49:54] to be

[00:49:55] or you’re spending

[00:49:56] too much money

[00:49:57] thinking you’re going

[00:49:58] to solve things that way

[00:49:59] or you’re ignoring

[00:50:00] the people around you,

[00:50:01] you know,

[00:50:02] countless ways.

[00:50:03] This is a hard

[00:50:04] question to ask

[00:50:05] and it’s even

[00:50:06] harder to answer

[00:50:07] but I know that

[00:50:08] you can

[00:50:09] answer it.

[00:50:10] If anyone is

[00:50:12] listening

[00:50:12] to this

[00:50:13] and they are

[00:50:15] someone who

[00:50:16] may be contemplating

[00:50:18] suicide

[00:50:18] or even

[00:50:19] contemplating

[00:50:20] contemplating it,

[00:50:22] what would you

[00:50:23] say to them?

[00:50:24] I would say

[00:50:25] to that person

[00:50:26] two things.

[00:50:28] First of all,

[00:50:29] if you’re in a position

[00:50:30] where you can

[00:50:31] get out of the space

[00:50:32] that you’re in right now,

[00:50:33] physical space,

[00:50:33] if you were in a position

[00:50:34] to take a walk,

[00:50:36] get up out of the space

[00:50:37] that you’re in,

[00:50:38] take a walk,

[00:50:38] get outside,

[00:50:39] breathe some fresh air,

[00:50:41] you know,

[00:50:41] avoid bridges

[00:50:42] for obvious reasons.

[00:50:43] Just get out

[00:50:44] and take a walk.

[00:50:45] It’s going to help you.

[00:50:46] I promise

[00:50:47] it’s going to help.

[00:50:48] It’s going to give you

[00:50:49] a little bit of space.

[00:50:51] The other thing

[00:50:51] is text somebody.

[00:50:54] If you’re somebody

[00:50:54] who can call

[00:50:56] 988

[00:50:57] the Suicide Helpline

[00:50:58] or text

[00:50:59] 988

[00:50:59] the Suicide Helpline

[00:51:00] and you feel like

[00:51:01] that’s a good thing for you,

[00:51:02] great, do that.

[00:51:03] Those people can really help.

[00:51:04] But if you’re someone

[00:51:05] who isn’t so inclined,

[00:51:07] don’t worry about

[00:51:08] who it is you’re texting.

[00:51:09] You know,

[00:51:09] text anybody.

[00:51:10] You can text

[00:51:11] your roofing contractor

[00:51:12] and say,

[00:51:13] I’m having a really,

[00:51:13] really bad day.

[00:51:14] How’s your day going?

[00:51:15] And if that person

[00:51:16] doesn’t reply to your text,

[00:51:17] text somebody else.

[00:51:19] You really need

[00:51:20] two things.

[00:51:20] You need to change

[00:51:21] the space that you’re in.

[00:51:23] Ideally,

[00:51:23] if possible,

[00:51:24] get a tiny little bit

[00:51:25] of exercise

[00:51:26] that you’ll get

[00:51:26] from walking.

[00:51:28] Probably also walking

[00:51:29] will kind of

[00:51:30] open the blinders

[00:51:31] for you a little bit.

[00:51:32] It’ll lessen

[00:51:33] the pressure for you.

[00:51:34] It’ll ease the pain

[00:51:36] a little bit,

[00:51:36] walking.

[00:51:37] And also,

[00:51:38] some kind of human contact

[00:51:39] will do all of those things.

[00:51:42] And if someone

[00:51:43] reaches out to you,

[00:51:44] if someone texts you

[00:51:45] or something,

[00:51:45] and you can tell,

[00:51:46] hey,

[00:51:46] this person is struggling,

[00:51:48] don’t try to solve

[00:51:49] their problems.

[00:51:50] You can ask them directly,

[00:51:51] are you feeling suicidal?

[00:51:52] That’s totally fine.

[00:51:53] If they are,

[00:51:53] they’ll probably tell you,

[00:51:55] yeah,

[00:51:55] I’m feeling suicidal.

[00:51:56] Thank you for asking.

[00:51:57] It can be a very

[00:51:58] helpful question,

[00:51:59] but you don’t have

[00:52:00] to ask that question.

[00:52:01] Just let them know

[00:52:02] that you’re eager

[00:52:03] to listen to whatever

[00:52:04] is going on with them.

[00:52:06] Like, yeah,

[00:52:06] okay,

[00:52:06] tell me more.

[00:52:07] What’s going on?

[00:52:08] Create an open space

[00:52:09] for them to reach out to you.

[00:52:11] Those are the single

[00:52:13] most important things to do.

[00:52:15] You’ve got to open

[00:52:15] the blinders a little bit

[00:52:16] because you’ve narrowed

[00:52:17] your thinking down

[00:52:18] to where you think

[00:52:19] suicide is the only choice.

[00:52:20] It’s not the only choice.

[00:52:22] You know,

[00:52:22] as this fellow

[00:52:23] who jumped off

[00:52:24] the Golden Gate Bridge

[00:52:25] famously remarked,

[00:52:26] as soon as he jumped

[00:52:27] off the bridge,

[00:52:28] he realized that

[00:52:28] everything in his life

[00:52:29] was totally fixable

[00:52:30] except for the fact

[00:52:31] of having jumped.

[00:52:32] And that’s the truth.

[00:52:34] Everything in your life

[00:52:35] is totally fixable

[00:52:36] except for making the attempt.

[00:52:38] So don’t do that.

[00:52:40] And look,

[00:52:41] I don’t want to say

[00:52:42] that someone doesn’t

[00:52:43] have the right to die.

[00:52:44] I believe that

[00:52:45] Schopenhauer is right

[00:52:46] when he says that

[00:52:46] our most incontestable right

[00:52:48] is the right to our own life.

[00:52:50] But I also think

[00:52:50] you are right

[00:52:51] to say in your book,

[00:52:52] and I think you just said this

[00:52:53] now,

[00:52:54] that in almost every case,

[00:52:56] suicide is a bad choice.

[00:52:58] And sometimes we just need

[00:52:59] someone to help us see that.

[00:53:02] Yep.

[00:53:02] It’s almost always

[00:53:04] the wrong decision.

[00:53:06] I, too,

[00:53:07] am an advocate

[00:53:08] of medical assistance

[00:53:10] in dying.

[00:53:10] I think it’s an

[00:53:11] extremely important right.

[00:53:14] I think that

[00:53:15] we can’t meaningfully talk about

[00:53:17] having any rights at all

[00:53:18] unless we also have

[00:53:19] the right to our own lives.

[00:53:21] But I genuinely believe

[00:53:24] that the vast majority

[00:53:25] of the times,

[00:53:26] violence is going

[00:53:27] to make things worse.

[00:53:29] Taking your life

[00:53:30] unexpectedly

[00:53:31] in the middle of,

[00:53:32] you know,

[00:53:33] whatever it is you’re going through

[00:53:34] without talking to the people

[00:53:35] around you,

[00:53:36] all this,

[00:53:36] is an incredibly violent thing.

[00:53:38] And I’ll tell you something else

[00:53:40] that I always say

[00:53:40] and I always tell people.

[00:53:41] If you are going to go out

[00:53:43] on that walk

[00:53:44] just to give yourself

[00:53:45] a little bit of breathing room,

[00:53:46] as you pass somebody

[00:53:48] on that walk,

[00:53:49] look for somebody

[00:53:49] that you can smile at.

[00:53:51] Ideally,

[00:53:51] somebody who you think

[00:53:52] is kind of not expecting

[00:53:54] a smile.

[00:53:56] And when you smile

[00:53:58] at that person,

[00:53:59] suddenly,

[00:54:00] something good

[00:54:02] has taken place

[00:54:04] in the world

[00:54:05] that otherwise

[00:54:06] would never have taken place.

[00:54:07] You just created

[00:54:08] something good.

[00:54:09] And you don’t know

[00:54:10] how that’s going to work.

[00:54:10] That smile might have

[00:54:11] completely changed

[00:54:12] that person’s day.

[00:54:14] Maybe reassured them

[00:54:15] about their lives.

[00:54:16] Just getting this

[00:54:17] unexpected smile from you.

[00:54:19] You have this power

[00:54:20] as a human being.

[00:54:22] Do that

[00:54:22] and then you’ll suddenly remember,

[00:54:24] you know what?

[00:54:24] I am capable

[00:54:25] of doing something.

[00:54:26] Something so small

[00:54:27] but something so

[00:54:28] simple and good.

[00:54:30] And if you can do that,

[00:54:32] then

[00:54:32] we need you around.

[00:54:34] You know,

[00:54:35] we need people

[00:54:36] who are willing to do that.

[00:54:37] I think you say this

[00:54:38] in the book

[00:54:39] and it sounds morbid

[00:54:40] but it’s

[00:54:40] I don’t think it is.

[00:54:42] You say,

[00:54:43] if nothing else,

[00:54:44] you can always

[00:54:44] kill yourself tomorrow.

[00:54:46] Yeah.

[00:54:46] It’s the old

[00:54:47] stoic argument.

[00:54:48] You know,

[00:54:49] you can always

[00:54:50] kill yourself tomorrow.

[00:54:51] The door is always open.

[00:54:53] The Romanian philosopher

[00:54:54] Choran

[00:54:55] said that people

[00:54:56] used to come to him

[00:54:56] wanting to kill themselves

[00:54:58] all the time

[00:54:58] and he’d say,

[00:54:59] what’s your hurry?

[00:55:00] Suicide is a positive act.

[00:55:02] You can always

[00:55:02] do it tomorrow.

[00:55:03] And he said,

[00:55:04] I expected this

[00:55:05] to make them feel better

[00:55:06] and you know what?

[00:55:07] It always did make them

[00:55:08] feel better.

[00:55:08] And consequently,

[00:55:10] they didn’t

[00:55:10] kill themselves.

[00:55:11] And it’s true.

[00:55:13] You can always

[00:55:14] do it tomorrow.

[00:55:15] So what’s your hurry?

[00:55:16] Give yourself

[00:55:17] one more day.

[00:55:18] Go give someone

[00:55:18] an unexpected smile.

[00:55:21] You know,

[00:55:21] the hell with it.

[00:55:23] If you’re going

[00:55:23] to kill yourself anyway,

[00:55:24] take one more day

[00:55:26] and do whatever

[00:55:27] that you please.

[00:55:29] You know,

[00:55:29] take it for selfish reasons.

[00:55:31] Just for yourself.

[00:55:32] Go have a last

[00:55:33] look around.

[00:55:35] On behalf of people

[00:55:36] who are in a place

[00:55:38] in their life

[00:55:38] where they really do

[00:55:40] feel caught

[00:55:40] off and actually

[00:55:41] are cut off,

[00:55:41] they may not have family.

[00:55:43] Right.

[00:55:43] They may not have friends.

[00:55:44] They may be alone.

[00:55:45] So they may not have

[00:55:46] relationships to throw

[00:55:48] themselves into.

[00:55:49] Right.

[00:55:50] What do they do?

[00:55:51] What do you tell that person?

[00:55:52] Yeah,

[00:55:53] it’s an incredibly

[00:55:54] important question.

[00:55:55] I correspond with

[00:55:56] a lot of these people

[00:55:56] who write to me

[00:55:58] and say,

[00:55:59] you know,

[00:55:59] but Clancy,

[00:56:00] you’ve got,

[00:56:01] you know,

[00:56:01] you’ve got this,

[00:56:02] you’re a professor,

[00:56:03] you’ve got this,

[00:56:03] you’ve got that,

[00:56:04] you’ve got your children,

[00:56:05] you’ve got all these things.

[00:56:06] I don’t have any

[00:56:06] of these things.

[00:56:08] I’m thinking of

[00:56:09] several,

[00:56:10] several male

[00:56:10] friends

[00:56:11] who have written

[00:56:13] to me to say,

[00:56:13] you know,

[00:56:14] I read your book

[00:56:15] or I read an earlier

[00:56:15] article of yours

[00:56:16] and I didn’t kill myself

[00:56:17] and we got to talking.

[00:56:19] There are lots of

[00:56:20] these people out there

[00:56:21] who feel like

[00:56:22] they have nothing

[00:56:23] and no one to reach out to.

[00:56:25] And this is part of

[00:56:26] why they’re feeling suicidal.

[00:56:29] What I want to say

[00:56:30] to anyone

[00:56:32] who’s feeling that way

[00:56:33] is look me up

[00:56:35] on the internet

[00:56:36] and shoot me an email.

[00:56:37] You’ve got

[00:56:38] at least one

[00:56:39] person

[00:56:40] who wants you around.

[00:56:42] Somebody who has

[00:56:42] failed at suicide

[00:56:43] over and over

[00:56:44] and over again

[00:56:45] and needs to talk

[00:56:46] to other people

[00:56:47] who are feeling this way

[00:56:49] because you’ll help me

[00:56:51] feel like my life

[00:56:52] has meaning.

[00:56:53] You can help me

[00:56:54] just by shooting me

[00:56:55] an email and saying

[00:56:56] that you feel hopeless.

[00:56:58] Anyone

[00:56:59] out there in the world

[00:57:01] who is feeling suicidal,

[00:57:02] there are so many

[00:57:03] other people around you

[00:57:04] who are also

[00:57:05] feeling this way.

[00:57:06] If you can stick it out,

[00:57:08] you’re going to wind up

[00:57:09] helping people

[00:57:09] unexpectedly.

[00:57:11] So don’t close

[00:57:13] yourself off

[00:57:13] from that unnecessarily.

[00:57:15] If there’s one thing

[00:57:16] you know about life,

[00:57:18] you’ve experienced this,

[00:57:20] it’s unpredictable.

[00:57:21] It changes all the time.

[00:57:23] And the loneliness

[00:57:24] and the isolation

[00:57:25] and the suffering

[00:57:26] you’re experiencing now,

[00:57:27] it’s the same way.

[00:57:28] It’s going to change.

[00:57:29] It might not feel

[00:57:30] like it’s going to change,

[00:57:31] but it’s going to.

[00:57:32] So you may as well

[00:57:33] stick around

[00:57:33] and see what happens next.

[00:57:36] Clancy, what can I say?

[00:57:38] This is a hard conversation.

[00:57:39] I appreciate you.

[00:57:42] I appreciate this book.

[00:57:44] It’s a human book,

[00:57:45] an all-too-human book.

[00:57:48] And while it’s tough at times,

[00:57:51] it’s ultimately

[00:57:52] a life-affirming book.

[00:57:55] Yeah, well, thank you, Sean.

[00:57:56] It’s really been

[00:57:57] an incredibly helpful conversation.

[00:58:01] And I’m grateful

[00:58:02] for the opportunity

[00:58:04] to talk about this.

[00:58:05] I mean, it’s like

[00:58:06] you started off the conversation,

[00:58:08] how do we,

[00:58:09] speak honorably

[00:58:10] about suicide?

[00:58:12] It seems to me

[00:58:13] the most important thing

[00:58:15] we could try to speak

[00:58:16] honorably about

[00:58:17] is the question

[00:58:17] of whether or not

[00:58:18] we should go on living

[00:58:19] and recognize

[00:58:20] that we have to

[00:58:23] honor

[00:58:24] everyone who is wrestling

[00:58:26] with that question

[00:58:27] of whether they should

[00:58:28] go on living.

[00:58:29] I mean, that is a person

[00:58:30] who deserves our honor.

[00:58:32] That’s a person

[00:58:32] who’s taking things seriously.

[00:58:35] I think about that

[00:58:36] young girl

[00:58:37] in the psychiatric hospital,

[00:58:39] and I so hope

[00:58:40] that she’s still alive.

[00:58:43] She would become

[00:58:45] if she’s around

[00:58:45] such a gift to the people

[00:58:47] around her, you know.

[00:58:49] It’s these people

[00:58:50] who care so much

[00:58:51] that wind up

[00:58:53] trying to take their own lives.

[00:58:55] And we need two people

[00:58:57] who care so much.

[00:58:59] There are a lot of people

[00:59:00] who don’t care so much.

[00:59:01] We don’t need them as much.

[00:59:04] Well, I’m glad you botched

[00:59:05] all your suicide attempts.

[00:59:07] Thank you.

[00:59:08] And me too.

[00:59:09] Because we need you here too, man.

[00:59:11] Well, I appreciate it.

[00:59:13] I’m very grateful to be here.

[00:59:29] Again, Clancy Martin’s book

[00:59:31] is How Not to Kill Yourself.

[00:59:33] If you or someone you know

[00:59:35] is struggling with thoughts of suicide,

[00:59:37] the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline

[00:59:38] can be reached at the website at www.clancymartin.com.

[00:59:39] You can be reached

[00:59:39] by dialing 988.

[00:59:42] Eric Janikas is our producer.

[00:59:45] Patrick Boyd engineered this episode.

[00:59:47] Alex Overington wrote our theme music.

[00:59:50] And A.M. Hall is the boss.

[00:59:53] As always, let us know what you think.

[00:59:56] Drop us a line at thegrayareaatvox.com.

[01:00:00] New episodes of The Gray Area Drop

[01:00:02] on Mondays and Thursdays.

[01:00:03] Listen and subscribe.

[01:00:09] We’ll see you next time.

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