The new crisis of masculinity

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Summary

The episode explores the contemporary crisis of masculinity, examining the data showing men falling behind in education, dropping out of the labor force, and suffering disproportionately from ‘deaths of despair.’ Host Sean Illing interviews Washington Post columnist Christine Emba, author of the essay ‘Men Are Lost, Here’s a Map Out of the Wilderness.’ They discuss the historical context of masculinity anxieties and why this moment is different due to concrete economic and social shifts.

Emba explains that the progressive left has largely ceded the conversation on masculinity to the right, due to fears of undermining feminist gains, a commitment to gender neutrality, and a generalized resentment post-#MeToo. This vacuum has been filled by figures like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate, who offer clear, if often problematic, roadmaps for manhood that resonate with young men seeking guidance and belonging.

The conversation delves into the class and racial dimensions of the crisis, noting it affects men across demographics but manifests differently. A key issue is the lack of positive male role models and mentors, compounded by declining community institutions and a broader loneliness epidemic. The hosts discuss the need for rites of passage and the challenge of defining a healthy, affirmative masculinity that isn’t regressive.

Ultimately, Emba argues that the left must move beyond simply critiquing toxic masculinity and offer a positive, aspirational vision for manhood. This involves acknowledging biological and social differences without reinforcing harmful hierarchies, and creating spaces for intergenerational mentorship and community belonging that can provide constructive guidance absent in the online ‘manosphere.‘

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Recommendations

Articles

• Men Are Lost. Here’s a Map Out of the Wilderness. — Christine Emba’s Washington Post essay that forms the basis for this conversation, exploring the modern crisis of masculinity and the search for positive models.

Books

• Of Boys and Men — Referenced by Christine Emba, Richard Reeves’s book discusses the challenges facing boys and men in education and the economy.
• Rethinking Sex: A Provocation — Emba’s own book, which sparked her interest in the masculinity crisis through interviews with confused men about their roles.
• Manhood — Senator Josh Hawley’s book, criticized in the episode for blaming the crisis on ‘liberal elites’ without offering substantive policy solutions.
• Bronze Age Mindset — The book by ‘Bronze Age Pervert’ (BAP), mentioned as part of the online conservative phenomenon offering a vision of masculinity.

People

• Jordan Peterson — Discussed as a figure who gained appeal by offering young men clear rules (like ‘stand up straight,’ ‘make your bed’) and empathetic recognition of their struggle.
• Andrew Tate — Described as a ‘grifter and performance artist’ whose amoral, hyper-materialistic, and misogynistic vision of masculinity appeals to young men online seeking a transgressive, clear path.
• Richard Reeves — Cited for his research on boys and men, including theories on why boys struggle in school systems and the importance of male teachers and coaches.
• David Gilmour — An anthropologist referenced by Emba for his cross-cultural study identifying protector, provider, and procreator as recurring components of masculinity across societies.
• Phil Christman — Mentioned for his essay ‘What’s It Like to Be a Man?’, which suggests the category ‘non-binary’ might apply to everyone to some degree.

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Topic Timeline

• 00:03:48 — Data showing the modern crisis for men — Christine Emba outlines the statistical evidence for a male crisis: for every 100 bachelor’s degrees awarded to women, only 74 go to men; three out of four ‘deaths of despair’ (suicide, overdose, alcoholism) are male; and nearly half of women now out-earn or match their partner’s income, compared to 4% in 1960. She links this to economic shifts away from traditional ‘male’ jobs and women’s educational and professional advances.
• 00:11:39 — Why the left avoids the masculinity conversation — Emba analyzes the left’s reluctance to engage with masculinity issues. She identifies three reasons: a desire to protect fragile feminist gains, a commitment to gender neutrality that fears reinforcing essentialist traits, and a post-#MeToo cultural resentment where ‘man-hating’ became a badge of honor. This reluctance has created a vacuum filled by the political right.
• 00:16:01 — The appeal of Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate — The discussion turns to ‘manfluencers’ like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate. Emba describes attending a Peterson event where young men felt seen and received clear, basic life instructions. She contrasts Peterson’s more earnest, rule-based project with Tate’s openly amoral, transgressive brand of masculinity centered on wealth, dominance, and opposition to women. Both succeed by offering a clear path where the left offers ambiguity.
• 00:30:44 — Class, race, and the crisis across demographics — Illing and Emba discuss how the masculinity crisis intersects with class and race. For bourgeois, educated men, it’s often a ‘psychic problem,’ while for working-class men, it’s tied to job loss and deaths of despair. For Black men, the crisis is compounded by historical factors like mass incarceration. Figures like Kevin Samuels represent a Black parallel to the ‘high-value man’ influencer trend.
• 00:44:52 — Defining a healthy, affirmative masculinity — Emba is pressed to define a healthy masculinity. She references anthropologist David Gilmour’s cross-cultural concepts of protector, provider, and procreator. She suggests virtues like strength used well, responsibility, duty, and looking out for the weak. The challenge is offering a positive, aspirational norm that isn’t regressive, acknowledging that simply telling young men to ‘be a good person’ is an insufficiently clear roadmap.
• 00:52:45 — The need for rites of passage and male mentorship — The conversation highlights the cultural lack of rites of passage for young men, leading them to seek belonging in dangerous online spaces or groups like the Proud Boys. Emba notes that many young men she interviewed lacked positive father figures or mentors. They discuss potential solutions like recruiting more male teachers and coaches to provide guidance, acknowledging the difficulty of policy solutions for such a cultural and social problem.

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Episode Info

• Podcast: The Gray Area with Sean Illing
• Author: Vox
• Category: Society & Culture Philosophy News Politics News Commentary
• Published: 2023-08-07T09:30:00Z
• Duration: 01:01:34

References

• URL PocketCasts: https://pocketcasts.com/podcast/the-gray-area-with-sean-illing/1d3ce9a0-ae3d-0133-2e33-6dc413d6d41d/the-new-crisis-of-masculinity/1d1f0e9d-aeda-49e5-be5e-6745eba60526
• Episode UUID: 1d1f0e9d-aeda-49e5-be5e-6745eba60526

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Podcast Info

• Name: The Gray Area with Sean Illing
• Type: episodic
• Site: https://www.vox.com/vox-conversations-podcast
• UUID: 1d3ce9a0-ae3d-0133-2e33-6dc413d6d41d

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Transcript

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[00:00:57] Whether you look at education, or the labor market, or addiction rates, or suicide attempts,

[00:01:04] it’s not a pretty picture for men.

[00:01:09] And the numbers have garnered a lot of attention in the public discourse.

[00:01:15] Normally, more attention on a problem is a precursor to solving it.

[00:01:20] But that hasn’t really happened in this case.

[00:01:23] Instead, the conversation on masculinity feels…

[00:01:27] stuck.

[00:01:28] It rarely moves beyond banal observations.

[00:01:32] Masculinity is toxic.

[00:01:34] It’s socially constructed.

[00:01:35] It’s under attack.

[00:01:37] You’ve heard all this before, I’m sure.

[00:01:39] But what does a more productive conversation on masculinity look like?

[00:01:48] I’m Sean Elling, and this is The Gray Area.

[00:01:57] Today’s guest is Christine Embaugh.

[00:02:06] She’s a columnist at The Washington Post,

[00:02:08] where she recently published an essay titled,

[00:02:11] Men Are Lost, Here’s a Map Out of the Wilderness.

[00:02:15] The essay, and I apologize for the cliche, but it fits,

[00:02:19] is one of those pieces that broke through.

[00:02:22] Besides just being well done, I think the reason it landed

[00:02:25] is that it tackled a very complex issue.

[00:02:27] A controversial subject in an admirably nuanced way.

[00:02:31] Which is why I invited Embaugh to join us for a discussion

[00:02:35] about the masculinity crisis.

[00:02:37] She became interested in this topic a few years ago

[00:02:40] when she was writing her book on relationship culture

[00:02:43] called Rethinking Sex, A Provocation.

[00:02:45] She interviewed men and women for the book

[00:02:48] and noticed that a lot of the men she spoke to

[00:02:50] were confused about their roles and their place in the world

[00:02:53] and really what masculinity means.

[00:02:55] Since then, she’s learned a few reasons

[00:02:58] why men might be feeling confused,

[00:03:01] and that’s where we started our conversation.

[00:03:08] Christine Embaugh, welcome back to the show.

[00:03:11] Thanks for having me again.

[00:03:13] Well, you are, you’re now one of our rare repeat guests.

[00:03:17] So I guess that officially makes you a friend of the show.

[00:03:20] So I’m sure you weren’t prepared for that, for that good news.

[00:03:23] So there you go.

[00:03:25] I love it.

[00:03:25] Friend of the pod, please.

[00:03:27] Friend of the pod.

[00:03:31] One of the things you point out in the piece

[00:03:34] is that worrying about the state of men and manhood

[00:03:38] is a very old American tradition, in your words.

[00:03:42] So what is it that makes this moment different

[00:03:45] or seriously worthy of our concern?

[00:03:48] If this is just something that’s always in the ether,

[00:03:50] why is this something we should really be paying attention to now?

[00:03:52] Yeah, I mean, so totally it’s something

[00:03:54] that we’ve always done.

[00:03:56] I quote everyone from Washington Irving

[00:03:58] to Arthur Schlesinger Jr. in the piece

[00:04:01] as having complained about masculinity in the past.

[00:04:03] But in this moment, I think that we actually now have data

[00:04:07] showing that men do seem to be in a real crisis.

[00:04:11] And we also have data on how the world has changed.

[00:04:16] And I think we can all see this, even in our own lives.

[00:04:19] Our social structure, our work structure,

[00:04:21] our economy has changed really significantly.

[00:04:23] Over the past 30 to 40 years.

[00:04:27] And that necessarily changes how people fit into the world.

[00:04:31] And I think a lot of the changes

[00:04:33] have had a direct effect on men specifically.

[00:04:37] So, you know, we can look at the stats

[00:04:39] that we have right now about how men are doing.

[00:04:42] And we see that for every 100 bachelor’s degrees

[00:04:45] awarded to women, only 74 are awarded to men.

[00:04:49] We know that when you’re looking at deaths of despair,

[00:04:52] which is sort of a moral issue,

[00:04:53] or a recent phenomenon,

[00:04:55] three out of four of those deaths are males.

[00:04:59] And I mean, they’re like social factors too.

[00:05:02] So a change in who is seen as a,

[00:05:06] or who is rather a high earner in our society.

[00:05:10] So in 2020, nearly half of women reported in a survey

[00:05:15] that they out-earn or make the same amount

[00:05:17] as their husband or romantic partner.

[00:05:19] And in 1960, that was fewer than 4% of women.

[00:05:23] So we’ve seen the economy change in ways

[00:05:26] that have, you know, moved away from the strength jobs,

[00:05:30] the union jobs and factory and labor jobs

[00:05:32] that were traditionally sort of seen as male jobs

[00:05:36] and helped promote this idea of the man as the provider

[00:05:38] who can take care of a whole family on one income

[00:05:40] towards these kind of soft skill credentialism

[00:05:44] favoring jobs that tend to favor women.

[00:05:46] And then because of the feminist movement

[00:05:48] and women’s advances, which to be clear are great,

[00:05:53] very, very good.

[00:05:53] I’m very supportive of this change.

[00:05:55] Women have just entered schools and the economy in force

[00:05:59] and they’re doing really well.

[00:06:01] And I think men are beginning to feel a little bit worried

[00:06:05] and lost in comparison.

[00:06:07] You used the phrase deaths of despair.

[00:06:09] For people who may not know what that means exactly,

[00:06:12] what does that refer to?

[00:06:13] Are we talking about deaths from suicide

[00:06:15] or deaths from drug overdoses, these sorts of things?

[00:06:18] Just, can you clarify that?

[00:06:19] Yeah, so deaths of despair was a term coined by Case and Deaton.

[00:06:23] They coined it because it was a term

[00:06:23] that coined the term deaths of despair

[00:06:25] to refer to deaths from either suicide,

[00:06:28] drug overdose, or alcoholism-related deaths.

[00:06:32] So things like cirrhosis.

[00:06:34] And these are deaths that,

[00:06:36] they’re not sort of random accidents.

[00:06:38] Like generally people who are despairing

[00:06:40] end up committing suicide

[00:06:41] or drinking themselves to death or overdosing.

[00:06:44] The college numbers, that’s wild to me

[00:06:47] that for every 100 degrees awarded, 74 are to men.

[00:06:51] And that’s, unless I’m wrong,

[00:06:53] that gap,

[00:06:53] appears to be growing as well, more and more every year.

[00:06:57] Do you have an explanation for that?

[00:07:00] Did anyone you talked to for the piece

[00:07:01] have an explanation for that?

[00:07:02] Or is it just something we’re observing

[00:07:04] and nobody really knows why?

[00:07:06] Yeah, no, absolutely.

[00:07:07] It’s pretty startling.

[00:07:08] I mean, there’s sort of further numbers to back this up

[00:07:12] that you can also frame interestingly.

[00:07:14] So when Title IX was passed in the 70s,

[00:07:17] the ratio of men to women was,

[00:07:19] you know, there were a lot of men in college

[00:07:20] and many fewer women.

[00:07:22] By now, that proportion,

[00:07:23] has actually kind of flipped in women’s favor.

[00:07:26] There are more women enrolled than men.

[00:07:29] And one might even say that maybe men need Title IX

[00:07:31] in some way.

[00:07:32] They don’t.

[00:07:32] Actually, you wouldn’t say that.

[00:07:34] But the proportions are startling.

[00:07:36] And there are a couple different explanations for this.

[00:07:40] And Richard Reeve,

[00:07:41] so I think maybe you had on the show?

[00:07:43] We have.

[00:07:43] Talked about this a lot in detail in his book

[00:07:46] of boys and men.

[00:07:47] And I think you could say that it starts from

[00:07:49] very early on, actually.

[00:07:52] So the way that our society is,

[00:07:53] the way that our school system is set up,

[00:07:55] Reeves and many others theorize,

[00:07:58] tends to favor students who can sit still

[00:08:02] and be quiet and, you know,

[00:08:04] raise their hands and answer questions in focus.

[00:08:06] And generally, girls mature in sort of this area

[00:08:10] more quickly than boys do.

[00:08:12] So they excel in school earlier and faster.

[00:08:15] As we have far more competition

[00:08:18] for academic and college slots,

[00:08:20] we look at test scores

[00:08:23] and grades a lot more.

[00:08:25] And of course, if girls are doing better in school,

[00:08:27] then they have better test scores

[00:08:29] and tend to get admitted.

[00:08:31] Also, there’s an interesting question theory

[00:08:35] about just being prepared for college.

[00:08:39] And this is also maybe a maturity thing.

[00:08:42] Statistics show that it’s not just college entrance,

[00:08:45] it’s college completion that differs by gender.

[00:08:47] So women graduate in four years

[00:08:50] with pretty strong regularity.

[00:08:53] But often young men, it seems,

[00:08:56] are much more likely to drop out or stall out.

[00:09:00] Like they just kind of aren’t really ready for college

[00:09:03] and sort of take a break and maybe don’t return.

[00:09:06] So you see women just graduating with degrees

[00:09:09] at higher rates in four years.

[00:09:11] But if you expand the timeline

[00:09:12] to like six or seven years, actually,

[00:09:15] the proportion gets better,

[00:09:17] but women are still ahead.

[00:09:19] And then of course,

[00:09:20] there’s just been like a big effort

[00:09:22] to, you know,

[00:09:23] to help women enter college

[00:09:25] and enter various fields

[00:09:28] that previously seemed kind of confined to men.

[00:09:31] So, you know, there’s a big push

[00:09:33] for STEM education for women

[00:09:34] and telling girls that they can go to college

[00:09:36] and become scientists, astronauts, et cetera.

[00:09:40] There are lots of scholarships.

[00:09:42] Affirmative action,

[00:09:42] which was maybe just rolled back,

[00:09:45] actually tended to benefit women

[00:09:48] more than any particular race.

[00:09:52] Obviously, I think,

[00:09:53] you would like to see more parity in college

[00:09:55] just for its own sake.

[00:09:56] But this is a real problem

[00:09:57] for the reason you mentioned a minute ago,

[00:09:59] that because we live in a post-industrial world

[00:10:02] where these soft skills and academic credentials

[00:10:05] are so important

[00:10:05] for getting a good, sustainable job, right?

[00:10:08] The fact that men are dropping out

[00:10:10] more and more of college

[00:10:11] just feeds into this already intensifying problem

[00:10:14] of working-age men

[00:10:15] just dropping out of the labor market.

[00:10:17] And the biggest group dropping out

[00:10:18] is in that 25 to 34 group of working-age men.

[00:10:21] I mean, you can just, again,

[00:10:22] you play this out,

[00:10:23] long enough,

[00:10:23] and you can see what a real problem

[00:10:25] that this is for our society.

[00:10:27] Right, absolutely.

[00:10:28] I mean, the biggest drop in employment

[00:10:29] has been among men aged 25 to 34.

[00:10:33] And in general, wages have stagnated,

[00:10:36] but especially for men,

[00:10:37] except those at, you know,

[00:10:39] the very, very top of the ladder.

[00:10:41] Surprise, surprise.

[00:10:42] Yeah, capitalism.

[00:10:44] But I mean, even if you talk to

[00:10:46] college admissions officers,

[00:10:48] sort of off the record,

[00:10:49] they will tell you that

[00:10:50] they’re already doing a sort of

[00:10:52] soft-deflating,

[00:10:53] affirmative action in many places for men

[00:10:55] because there are just so many fewer men

[00:10:57] applying to colleges.

[00:10:59] And college campuses are less attractive

[00:11:02] to potential students

[00:11:03] if they have really poor gender parity.

[00:11:06] And this is something

[00:11:07] that a lot of colleges are seeing

[00:11:09] and struggling with right now.

[00:11:11] Well, something you deal with in the piece,

[00:11:14] and we have to deal with here,

[00:11:15] is the fact that a lot of people,

[00:11:18] especially on the left right now,

[00:11:20] don’t want to talk about this problem.

[00:11:22] We just kind of want to just,

[00:11:23] circumnavigate it altogether.

[00:11:24] Do you have a theory of the case

[00:11:26] for why that is?

[00:11:27] Why is this something that so many people

[00:11:29] have such difficulty talking about?

[00:11:32] Forget about proposing solutions

[00:11:33] or something like that,

[00:11:34] but just diagnosing it

[00:11:36] seems to be a thorny spot in the discourse.

[00:11:39] Why the hell is that?

[00:11:40] Yeah, so this was actually one of

[00:11:42] the major inspirations for writing this piece

[00:11:44] because I was trying to get at that question.

[00:11:47] And I even felt,

[00:11:49] as I was working on this piece,

[00:11:50] my own reluctance

[00:11:53] in some ways to attend to it empathetically.

[00:11:56] And I theorize that there are

[00:11:58] a couple reasons for this.

[00:12:00] First of all, justifiably, I think,

[00:12:03] progressives and people on the left

[00:12:05] want to preserve the gains

[00:12:07] that have been made for women

[00:12:08] over the past several decades.

[00:12:10] You know, the feminist movement

[00:12:12] and movements for women’s equality

[00:12:13] are still pretty fragile.

[00:12:15] We saw during the COVID-19 pandemic

[00:12:17] that suddenly it was women

[00:12:19] dropping out of the workforce en masse.

[00:12:21] And it’s really easy, I think,

[00:12:23] on the left, and just in politics generally,

[00:12:26] to think of things as being zero-sum.

[00:12:29] So there’s this fear that if we start helping men,

[00:12:32] then we’ll just have forgotten about women

[00:12:33] and there won’t be space or time for women anymore.

[00:12:36] And I think that’s a mistake.

[00:12:38] I think we should be able to

[00:12:40] do two things at once,

[00:12:42] recognize that both women and men

[00:12:44] are members of our society

[00:12:45] and we should want to help

[00:12:46] all members of our society.

[00:12:48] So that’s just one part of it.

[00:12:50] I think there’s also something really appealing,

[00:12:53] like, to someone with a progressive mindset

[00:12:56] about, like, an idea of gender neutrality

[00:13:01] or gender neutrality as an ethos

[00:13:03] that we should aspire to

[00:13:04] and not making distinctions

[00:13:06] between men and women

[00:13:07] or masculine and feminine

[00:13:09] or at least just rejecting

[00:13:10] sort of an idea of gender essentialism.

[00:13:14] Because, A, I think we have moved

[00:13:17] in liberal society

[00:13:18] towards an ideal of individualization.

[00:13:23] The ideal of individualization.

[00:13:23] The idea that there could be, like,

[00:13:24] one form of masculinity

[00:13:25] or manhood that’s good

[00:13:27] risks alienating people

[00:13:30] who don’t necessarily fit into that box.

[00:13:33] And then, like, ascribing certain traits to men,

[00:13:36] especially if they’re positive traits,

[00:13:39] maybe worries people

[00:13:40] that we’re subtracting those traits from women.

[00:13:43] Like, if we say that men are leaders,

[00:13:45] does that mean that women

[00:13:46] are always going to be followers?

[00:13:48] Or if men are strong,

[00:13:49] are we actually saying that women are weak?

[00:13:53] And so I think there’s a fear,

[00:13:54] a fear of doing that.

[00:13:56] And then, finally, I think there’s just

[00:13:58] a sort of generalized resentment,

[00:14:02] especially after the Me Too moment in 2018,

[00:14:07] but also for a lot of the,

[00:14:10] I think, the 2010s

[00:14:12] as, I think, a pretty silly

[00:14:15] and uncritical form of the feminist movement,

[00:14:17] sort of made man-hating and misandry

[00:14:20] into, like, kind of a joke

[00:14:22] and a badge of honor.

[00:14:23] Where it was just cool to be like,

[00:14:25] men are trash.

[00:14:26] Men suck.

[00:14:27] Wouldn’t the world be better without men?

[00:14:28] What are they even for?

[00:14:30] And there’s sort of a feel

[00:14:32] that you kind of still need to do that

[00:14:35] to sort of prove your good liberal bona fides

[00:14:38] and that you, like, love women enough.

[00:14:40] And there’s also the fact that

[00:14:42] because progressives in the mainstream

[00:14:45] just have not really taken up

[00:14:46] the masculinity or men question,

[00:14:50] the people who have taken it up

[00:14:51] tend to be on the right,

[00:14:53] and often they tend to be problematic,

[00:14:57] like, unappealing figures.

[00:14:58] You see, you know, incels

[00:15:00] and men’s rights activists

[00:15:01] and Ben Shapiro burning Barbies,

[00:15:05] and there’s a sort of fear

[00:15:07] that if you speak up for men,

[00:15:08] everyone’s going to be like,

[00:15:09] why are you,

[00:15:12] you seem too interested in this.

[00:15:13] Are you one of them?

[00:15:14] It’s like a branding problem, almost.

[00:15:17] One of the many consequences

[00:15:19] of what you’re describing right now

[00:15:23] is that the left, for all of these reasons,

[00:15:27] has sort of ceded the space to the right.

[00:15:30] And the right has happily,

[00:15:32] very happily filled the vacuum.

[00:15:35] And the results of that, I would say,

[00:15:37] have not been awesome.

[00:15:40] So what do you see happening

[00:15:42] with people like Jordan Peterson

[00:15:44] and someone like Andrew Tate,

[00:15:47] who you also write about in the piece,

[00:15:49] as you must?

[00:15:50] Now, these are very different people.

[00:15:51] I want to be clear, I’m not equating,

[00:15:53] Peterson and Tate,

[00:15:54] but they inhabit this space

[00:15:57] in different but revealing ways.

[00:15:59] So what do you make of those two in particular

[00:16:01] and the phenomena they represent more broadly?

[00:16:04] Yeah, super interesting question.

[00:16:06] And I do think that it’s important

[00:16:08] to try and draw distinctions between,

[00:16:11] there’s sort of a spectrum of what I call

[00:16:13] in the piece, the manfluencers.

[00:16:15] God, I hate that word.

[00:16:17] I’m so sorry.

[00:16:18] I still understand.

[00:16:20] The manosphere, manfluencers,

[00:16:22] just, just,

[00:16:23] God, okay, sorry.

[00:16:24] Like those, those yogurts

[00:16:25] that they were selling a little while ago.

[00:16:27] It was like, it’s yogurt,

[00:16:28] but it’s in a black container

[00:16:29] because it’s for men.

[00:16:31] It’s mogurt or something.

[00:16:34] Yes, anyway.

[00:16:34] Anyway, as you were, I’m sorry.

[00:16:35] I’m sorry.

[00:16:37] I mean, it’s true.

[00:16:38] It’s a ridiculous word

[00:16:38] for a ridiculous phenomenon,

[00:16:40] but there is sort of a range

[00:16:41] from people who are

[00:16:42] maybe slightly more benign.

[00:16:44] I think Jordan Peterson

[00:16:45] started out as more benign,

[00:16:47] although he’s gotten fringier since,

[00:16:50] to people like Andrew Tate,

[00:16:51] who I think are just straightforward,

[00:16:53] outwardly bad people.

[00:16:55] And you have also sort of

[00:16:57] Josh Hawley and Joe Rogan

[00:16:58] and Bronze Age pervert

[00:17:00] and all of these people in between.

[00:17:04] But yeah, I mean,

[00:17:05] I think it is just factually accurate

[00:17:09] that conservatives and the right

[00:17:11] have always been more invested in

[00:17:14] and more clear about roles,

[00:17:16] like straightforward roles for people

[00:17:18] and what people should do.

[00:17:19] So it’s almost natural

[00:17:20] that they just have a clearer vision

[00:17:22] of like,

[00:17:22] this is what manhood is.

[00:17:24] This is what men should do.

[00:17:25] But I think, you know,

[00:17:27] they realized that

[00:17:28] there was an opening here.

[00:17:30] Young men especially

[00:17:31] are simply looking for role models

[00:17:34] and realizing that they feel unsure

[00:17:36] and uncomfortable

[00:17:37] of their place in the world.

[00:17:39] And when someone asks this,

[00:17:42] you know, or says this aloud,

[00:17:44] like a young man

[00:17:45] who I interviewed for the piece,

[00:17:46] was just like,

[00:17:46] I just want someone to tell me,

[00:17:48] to tell me how to be.

[00:17:50] If the progressive left is like,

[00:17:52] we’re not going to tell you how to be.

[00:17:52] We’re not going to tell you how to be.

[00:17:52] We’re not going to tell you how to be.

[00:17:52] We’re not going to tell you how to be.

[00:17:52] We’re not going to tell you how to be.

[00:17:52] We’re not going to tell you that.

[00:17:53] Just be a good person.

[00:17:54] You don’t need rules.

[00:17:57] And then young men are like,

[00:17:58] no, I’m really asking you.

[00:18:00] I really want rules, actually.

[00:18:03] The right is happy to give them those rules.

[00:18:06] And so they have kind of stepped up

[00:18:08] and as you said,

[00:18:09] filled the vacuum

[00:18:10] just by saying something,

[00:18:12] just by acknowledging that masculinity

[00:18:15] or manhood is a thing

[00:18:16] and that they can talk about it.

[00:18:18] And also, I would say very importantly,

[00:18:21] by talking about it,

[00:18:22] sympathetically,

[00:18:24] by really appearing to

[00:18:26] or at least seeming to empathize

[00:18:29] with feelings of loss

[00:18:32] that young men are expressing.

[00:18:34] If people have sort of an identity

[00:18:36] as a man or masculine,

[00:18:40] the right is not going to say it’s toxic

[00:18:42] and only talk about toxic masculinity,

[00:18:45] but they also try to talk about

[00:18:47] or attempt to talk about

[00:18:48] positive things about masculinity

[00:18:51] and actually make it a thing.

[00:18:52] Make it out to be something

[00:18:53] that you want to aspire to

[00:18:55] that’s actually transgressive and great

[00:18:58] and like historically superior

[00:19:00] to whatever’s going on today

[00:19:02] for better or for worse,

[00:19:04] depending on how they frame that.

[00:19:05] And being told that your identity

[00:19:07] is actually a positive, good thing

[00:19:10] and here’s a roadmap to how to fulfill it,

[00:19:13] a clear map that you can follow,

[00:19:16] whether it’s good or bad,

[00:19:17] that something is going to beat out

[00:19:19] nothing anytime.

[00:19:22] Why are figures like Jordan Peterson

[00:19:37] and Andrew Tate

[00:19:38] so appealing to young men?

[00:19:40] That’s coming up after the break.

[00:19:42] Why are figures like Jordan Peterson

[00:19:42] and Andrew Tate

[00:19:42] so appealing to young men?

[00:19:42] That’s coming up after the break.

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[00:22:21] There was, I don’t know,

[00:22:32] maybe like a five-day window

[00:22:33] where I thought Jordan Peterson

[00:22:35] was actually saying interesting things.

[00:22:38] Or certainly things that verged

[00:22:41] on the border of interesting.

[00:22:42] And then he careened

[00:22:45] into some very weird places.

[00:22:47] But from the beginning,

[00:22:49] I have always thought

[00:22:50] his wide,

[00:22:51] widespread appeal,

[00:22:53] the fact that he resonated

[00:22:55] was so much more interesting

[00:22:57] and important

[00:22:57] than anything he actually had to say.

[00:23:00] And you went to one of his talks.

[00:23:03] What was that like?

[00:23:06] I mean, what did you learn

[00:23:07] about his appeal

[00:23:08] to the young men,

[00:23:10] and it was mostly young men,

[00:23:11] who showed up there?

[00:23:12] That had to be some kind

[00:23:13] of revelation for you.

[00:23:14] Oh, it was so eye-opening, actually.

[00:23:17] I mean, I went because I’d heard

[00:23:18] about Jordan Peterson online

[00:23:19] and was just curious

[00:23:21] about why he was suddenly

[00:23:22] popping up in my feeds everywhere.

[00:23:24] So I just got tickets

[00:23:25] to his first book tour,

[00:23:27] the 12 Rules for Life book tour.

[00:23:29] And that book was just like

[00:23:30] a surprise runaway bestseller,

[00:23:33] like millions of copies

[00:23:34] sold all over the world.

[00:23:36] And I arrived at like the,

[00:23:40] it was like at a theater

[00:23:41] in downtown DC.

[00:23:43] The audience was at least 85% male.

[00:23:47] And the only women there

[00:23:48] were clearly either moms,

[00:23:51] who had brought their sons,

[00:23:52] or like long-suffering girlfriends,

[00:23:55] who had brought their boyfriends.

[00:23:57] And I actually came with

[00:23:58] a male colleague of mine

[00:23:59] from the Post,

[00:24:00] because I was writing about this

[00:24:01] for the Post,

[00:24:02] and just everyone assumed

[00:24:03] that I was his girlfriend,

[00:24:04] who was just like there

[00:24:05] supporting him.

[00:24:09] But it was just like full of young men

[00:24:10] who were so excited to see this guy.

[00:24:13] And, you know, I was in the audience,

[00:24:15] like kind of shit-talking Jordan Peterson,

[00:24:17] being like, his suit’s very lame.

[00:24:18] Like, what’s the deal here?

[00:24:21] And this guy who I was sitting behind

[00:24:23] just like turned around and was like,

[00:24:24] Jordan Peterson taught me how to live.

[00:24:26] I was like, oh, okay.

[00:24:28] Without a hint of irony too, right?

[00:24:30] No irony, like totally straight.

[00:24:33] And, you know, Peterson climbs on stage

[00:24:36] and he does his Peterson thing.

[00:24:38] He sort of like glares into the audience

[00:24:40] and starts with,

[00:24:42] who are you?

[00:24:43] Who are you?

[00:24:45] And he’s like staring at these young men

[00:24:47] in his like three-piece suit.

[00:24:49] And he’s just like talking to them.

[00:24:51] He doesn’t talk to them directly.

[00:24:52] He gives them like some,

[00:24:54] what I think is pretty basic advice.

[00:24:56] Like, stand up straight.

[00:24:57] Don’t tell lies.

[00:24:59] Make your bed.

[00:25:00] But while he’s giving these pieces of advice,

[00:25:04] he’s also like talking about how he sees

[00:25:06] how men are struggling

[00:25:07] and how hard it is out there.

[00:25:09] And at one point he cries.

[00:25:11] And like there’s sort of a melting in the audience

[00:25:14] as all of these young men are like,

[00:25:15] yes, he sees me.

[00:25:16] Like finally someone sees my struggle.

[00:25:19] And that’s really what it is.

[00:25:21] Because I think all of these young men

[00:25:24] felt recognized

[00:25:26] and felt that somebody was speaking directly

[00:25:29] to them as men

[00:25:32] and showing them how to be,

[00:25:34] like giving them really clear instructions

[00:25:36] for what to do to be a good man,

[00:25:41] which is what they wanted.

[00:25:42] But maybe in other circumstances

[00:25:45] weren’t sure whether like that was allowed in some way.

[00:25:48] Like, do you want to become masculine?

[00:25:50] Do you want to become masculine?

[00:25:50] Do you want to become masculine?

[00:25:50] Do you want to become masculine?

[00:25:50] Do you want to become masculine?

[00:25:51] Do you want to become masculine?

[00:25:51] Do you want to become masculine?

[00:25:51] Do you want to become masculine?

[00:25:51] Do you want to become masculine?

[00:25:51] And how do you do it?

[00:25:53] Where’s the roadmap?

[00:25:54] Peterson’s like, no, it’s not toxic.

[00:25:56] You should do it.

[00:25:56] And here is a very clear map to follow.

[00:25:58] And there’s just such a hunger for that.

[00:26:01] Well, on the other side of that,

[00:26:02] you have Andrew Tate.

[00:26:03] Whereas I think there is something earnest

[00:26:06] about Peterson’s project,

[00:26:08] or there certainly was.

[00:26:09] I think he’s ran into some personal issues

[00:26:12] that may have derailed him a little bit.

[00:26:13] But I do think there was something earnest

[00:26:14] about what he’s trying to do.

[00:26:17] But Tate, Tate to me is,

[00:26:20] what happens when masculinity becomes steeped

[00:26:24] in fear and resentment?

[00:26:26] And let’s just forget about Tate,

[00:26:27] the individual for a second.

[00:26:29] I think he is a grifter and a performance artist

[00:26:31] in lots of ways.

[00:26:33] But as I was just saying about Peterson,

[00:26:35] it’s the reasons for his appeal

[00:26:36] that should concern us.

[00:26:38] And with Tate, unlike Peterson,

[00:26:41] there is no pretension to anything virtuous.

[00:26:44] It is just, hey, the world hates you.

[00:26:48] The world wants to make you weak.

[00:26:50] Right?

[00:26:50] Wants to make you soft.

[00:26:52] So take what you can get,

[00:26:54] crush your enemies,

[00:26:56] abuse women,

[00:26:57] double down on everything they hate about you.

[00:27:00] It’s the weak person’s vision of a strong person.

[00:27:04] You know, it’s the 19-year-old Nietzsche reader

[00:27:05] who didn’t make it past the preface, you know?

[00:27:09] And I don’t think a lot of people

[00:27:11] quite understand the reach Andrew Tate has.

[00:27:14] I mean, do you see him as a creature

[00:27:16] of a very particular moment?

[00:27:18] Or do you think he represents something,

[00:27:20] bigger and more enduring?

[00:27:22] Yes.

[00:27:23] The Tate phenomenon,

[00:27:25] which, as you say, is not just Andrew Tate,

[00:27:27] but there’s sort of a whole…

[00:27:30] Yeah, he’s the face of it, I guess.

[00:27:31] Yeah.

[00:27:32] I mean, the other person I think of in this area

[00:27:34] is the very online figure of Bronze Age pervert,

[00:27:37] or BAP,

[00:27:38] who wrote this book, Bronze Age Mindset,

[00:27:41] that’s become a very, like, a conservative phenomenon.

[00:27:45] I think you’re exactly right.

[00:27:46] This is a vision of masculinity

[00:27:47] that’s super basic

[00:27:49] and sort of tailored to,

[00:27:50] to a 15-year-old who doesn’t know any better.

[00:27:53] It’s all about just, like,

[00:27:55] shouting and showing off your cars

[00:27:57] and your women and your money.

[00:28:00] And, like, that’s what being a man is.

[00:28:01] It’s very clear, just, like, work out and be mean.

[00:28:04] And it’s simple.

[00:28:05] Yeah.

[00:28:06] And it’s on its face appealing

[00:28:07] because, like, there are a lot of fast cars

[00:28:08] and, like, pretty girls.

[00:28:10] And I guess that appeals to especially young men

[00:28:13] who haven’t thought about it very much.

[00:28:15] But I do think it has,

[00:28:19] again, in the absence,

[00:28:20] in the absence of better roadmaps,

[00:28:22] in the absence of other models,

[00:28:24] he just presents a very clear, visible model.

[00:28:28] He’s everywhere.

[00:28:29] You see him everywhere

[00:28:30] if you’re a kid online.

[00:28:33] And I think that’s also part of what

[00:28:35] has let him be underestimated.

[00:28:37] His reach is enormous among younger men.

[00:28:42] Like, middle school through high school-aged kids,

[00:28:45] they’ve all heard of Andrew Tate

[00:28:47] to the point that, actually, in Britain,

[00:28:49] where he’s from,

[00:28:50] there was kind of a campaign last year

[00:28:52] where teachers in high schools and middle schools

[00:28:55] were talking amongst themselves

[00:28:57] about how to combat Tate-ism in the classroom

[00:29:00] because these middle schoolers

[00:29:02] who had watched Andrew Tate videos

[00:29:03] were getting up in class

[00:29:04] and telling their female teachers to shut up

[00:29:06] because they don’t listen to women.

[00:29:08] And that’s what Tate taught them.

[00:29:09] But his videos spread on TikTok and YouTube and Facebook,

[00:29:15] you know, before he was banned from all of those sites.

[00:29:18] But I think 55-year-olds,

[00:29:20] dads,

[00:29:21] weren’t necessarily on TikTok

[00:29:22] and I think didn’t realize how much reach he had

[00:29:26] and how much of a hold he had.

[00:29:28] And the same with all of these kind of online figures

[00:29:31] who are sort of flying under the radar

[00:29:33] because they’re online, say.

[00:29:36] But I do think it’s important

[00:29:38] what you point out about their amorality.

[00:29:41] Like, if Jordan Peterson and even to some extent,

[00:29:44] you know, the Josh Hawley figures are saying,

[00:29:47] well, it’s good to be a man,

[00:29:48] but also being a man

[00:29:49] means being responsible in some way,

[00:29:52] contributing to society in some way.

[00:29:56] This, the Tate-ist version of masculinity

[00:29:59] is just totally divorced from anything positive.

[00:30:04] It’s just about defining yourself in opposition to women

[00:30:07] and taking what you can get and showing off, basically.

[00:30:13] But it’s a clear path

[00:30:14] and it feels almost transgressive too,

[00:30:17] which I think is part of its appeal

[00:30:18] because, you know,

[00:30:19] he’s like, call me toxic.

[00:30:21] I love being toxic.

[00:30:22] I am toxic masculinity.

[00:30:24] And to like a 15-year-old edgelord,

[00:30:27] that is aspirational, I guess.

[00:30:29] But it’s really ugly

[00:30:31] and it’s not good for society in any way.

[00:30:34] You know, there is a question lurking here

[00:30:35] about how, you know, this masculinity crisis

[00:30:38] intersects with class and race

[00:30:40] and who we’re really talking about

[00:30:42] when we say men are in trouble.

[00:30:44] I mean, I’m curious what you think of,

[00:30:46] or when you think of the platonic ideal

[00:30:48] of the young man in crisis,

[00:30:49] what does he look like?

[00:30:50] Is he poor, middle class, upper class?

[00:30:52] Is he white?

[00:30:53] I mean, obviously not all men

[00:30:55] are experiencing this problem equally.

[00:30:58] When I think about an incel, you know, for instance, right?

[00:31:00] I think of a certain kind of kid,

[00:31:02] bourgeois, middle, upper class, usually white.

[00:31:04] But I don’t want to reduce this entire problem to just that

[00:31:07] because it isn’t reducible to just that.

[00:31:08] But does it seem to be affecting a particular demographic

[00:31:11] in a particularly strong way?

[00:31:13] Yeah, hashtag not all men.

[00:31:14] Um, no, I think the class distinctions

[00:31:18] are actually really,

[00:31:19] really important.

[00:31:20] And there’s something that I thought about,

[00:31:22] but didn’t have as much space to go into

[00:31:26] as I wanted to in the piece.

[00:31:27] The piece, as you have read, is already quite long,

[00:31:30] but it could have been much longer.

[00:31:32] And I do think that the crisis of masculinity

[00:31:34] is kind of cross-class and cross-racial,

[00:31:39] but maybe presents itself differently in different spaces.

[00:31:43] I think for sort of bourgeois,

[00:31:46] fairly well-educated men

[00:31:48] at the top of the ladder,

[00:31:50] it presents as kind of a psychic problem, almost.

[00:31:54] Like, it’s not necessarily that you don’t have resources.

[00:31:56] It’s just you’re not really sure

[00:31:58] of how to be a guy on your Ivy League campus.

[00:32:01] And so you get really into Nietzsche

[00:32:02] and, like, intellectualize your problems.

[00:32:05] But I mean, for working-class men,

[00:32:07] that’s where you’re seeing, you know,

[00:32:08] like, deaths of despair hitting.

[00:32:10] And, like, this job loss is really hitting there.

[00:32:13] For Black men, there is, there has long been,

[00:32:17] I think, a sort of crisis of role models

[00:32:19] because so many Black father figures

[00:32:21] have been taken out of the community

[00:32:23] via mass incarceration and elsewhere.

[00:32:26] So it’s a little bit more of an ongoing thing.

[00:32:29] And there’s been actually more community step-in,

[00:32:31] maybe, in those places.

[00:32:32] But you have also seen or saw,

[00:32:35] he is now dead,

[00:32:37] the rise of, you know, Kevin Samuels

[00:32:39] was sort of like the Black influencer version

[00:32:41] of Andrew Tate

[00:32:43] and really popular in Black communities.

[00:32:44] And he had all these YouTube videos

[00:32:47] about being a high-value man.

[00:32:49] And, like, making fun of low-value women

[00:32:51] and defining masculinity in that way.

[00:32:54] And so the anxiety about men’s roles

[00:32:56] in relation to women

[00:32:57] is clearly visible there, too.

[00:33:11] Coming up after one more quick break,

[00:33:14] what types of models and mentors

[00:33:16] could help men right now?

[00:33:19] We’ll be right back.

[00:33:49] I’ve resolved not to.

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[00:36:18] One of the things,

[00:36:19] I hate about the culture war,

[00:36:21] at least as it’s waged

[00:36:23] very often by Republicans in particular,

[00:36:27] is that it’s often used

[00:36:29] to mobilize resentments in a way

[00:36:31] that doesn’t address

[00:36:32] any of the underlying causes

[00:36:34] of that resentment.

[00:36:35] It is so much easier to say

[00:36:38] that women, progressives, elites

[00:36:41] are to blame for your problems

[00:36:43] than it is to unpack

[00:36:45] all of these complicated

[00:36:46] social and economic transformations,

[00:36:48] some of which,

[00:36:49] which we were talking about earlier.

[00:36:50] And there’s a part of me

[00:36:51] that just has to believe

[00:36:53] that maybe not all of these problems,

[00:36:55] but many of these problems

[00:36:56] wouldn’t be problems

[00:36:57] if we lived in a more equitable economy,

[00:37:00] if we lived in richer communities

[00:37:01] with deeper connections,

[00:37:03] if precarity and boredom and despair

[00:37:05] weren’t so widespread.

[00:37:08] I mean, how do you make sense

[00:37:09] of the lines here?

[00:37:10] I mean, maybe the problem

[00:37:11] is so complicated and diffuse

[00:37:12] that all you can really say

[00:37:14] is that there are a thousand

[00:37:15] overlapping causes

[00:37:16] and it’s hard to tease it all out.

[00:37:18] But I don’t know.

[00:37:19] I’m just curious

[00:37:19] how you make sense of that.

[00:37:21] No, I think that’s absolutely right.

[00:37:22] And that’s the thing

[00:37:23] that frustrates me often

[00:37:24] about the conservative response

[00:37:26] to this crisis.

[00:37:27] So I write in the piece

[00:37:29] about Republican Senator Josh Hawley,

[00:37:31] whose book entitled

[00:37:33] Manhood went on sale.

[00:37:36] And unfortunately,

[00:37:38] the jokes like really,

[00:37:39] really write themselves.

[00:37:41] Yes, they do.

[00:37:41] Yes, they do.

[00:37:42] Right now, he’s writing a book

[00:37:44] on manhood,

[00:37:45] but like the most famous picture

[00:37:46] of Josh Hawley is him

[00:37:47] sort of fist pumping,

[00:37:48] outside of the January 6th uprising

[00:37:51] and then just hightailing it

[00:37:53] like heels to butt

[00:37:54] out down the hall

[00:37:55] when he’s confronted

[00:37:56] by people in the Capitol.

[00:37:58] So in his book,

[00:37:59] he blames the crisis of manhood

[00:38:02] specifically on liberal elites.

[00:38:06] Like that is who he blames.

[00:38:07] And he basically says

[00:38:09] it’s the elites have ruined manhood

[00:38:11] and feminists are taking away

[00:38:13] your manhood.

[00:38:15] And what you really need to do

[00:38:16] is sort of go back in time

[00:38:18] almost and he proposes

[00:38:20] a vision of manhood

[00:38:21] that basically is like

[00:38:23] the life that your grandfather

[00:38:24] lived somehow.

[00:38:25] Like a man should work

[00:38:27] a union job

[00:38:28] and be able to provide

[00:38:29] for his whole family.

[00:38:30] And that’s the ideal.

[00:38:32] But Josh Hawley,

[00:38:34] how are you going to get there?

[00:38:36] A, like what solutions

[00:38:37] are you offering

[00:38:38] except this new victim complex

[00:38:40] where you blame your sadness

[00:38:41] on women and liberal elites,

[00:38:44] whoever they are.

[00:38:44] And then again,

[00:38:46] Josh Hawley,

[00:38:47] it was your party

[00:38:48] who was in favor of NAFTA.

[00:38:52] And, you know,

[00:38:53] many of these policies

[00:38:54] that led to the offshoring

[00:38:55] of these working class

[00:38:57] union jobs for men.

[00:38:59] Are you going to

[00:39:00] do anything about that?

[00:39:02] Like, are you taking responsibility

[00:39:03] for those economic factors?

[00:39:05] There are things that

[00:39:07] we could do in America

[00:39:08] to make the economy

[00:39:09] more equitable,

[00:39:11] to make working life fairer,

[00:39:13] to make it easier

[00:39:14] to support a family.

[00:39:16] But where are the policies?

[00:39:17] Yeah.

[00:39:18] Where indeed?

[00:39:18] And as you put it in the piece,

[00:39:21] what this often boils down to

[00:39:22] is a misplaced desire to belong.

[00:39:25] And this is a general problem

[00:39:27] in this society.

[00:39:28] And maybe it’s especially

[00:39:28] bad for men,

[00:39:30] but our social lives

[00:39:31] in the real physical world

[00:39:34] are so much poorer

[00:39:35] than they used to be.

[00:39:37] And belonging

[00:39:37] is about anchoring

[00:39:39] our identities in communities.

[00:39:41] And unfortunately,

[00:39:42] the easiest way to do this now

[00:39:43] is to go online.

[00:39:44] And that’s a rather short road

[00:39:46] to some pretty,

[00:39:48] dark places.

[00:39:49] And that’s kind of

[00:39:49] what we’re talking about

[00:39:50] with the Tate phenomenon

[00:39:51] and the rest of it.

[00:39:51] Yeah.

[00:39:52] I mean, unfortunately,

[00:39:55] yes, that is very true.

[00:39:58] So one of the points

[00:39:59] that I make in the essay

[00:40:02] that I think is,

[00:40:04] it felt mildly controversial

[00:40:06] to be making this point,

[00:40:08] was the fact that it was notable

[00:40:10] that there,

[00:40:12] and this is something

[00:40:13] that also almost every young guy

[00:40:15] who I interviewed

[00:40:16] for this piece told me,

[00:40:17] that there were,

[00:40:18] just fewer role models around,

[00:40:21] and especially father figures.

[00:40:24] You know,

[00:40:25] many of the young men I talked to

[00:40:26] told me about how they didn’t have

[00:40:27] a good relationship

[00:40:28] with their father

[00:40:29] or their father wasn’t around.

[00:40:30] They grew up in a single-parent household.

[00:40:32] Most of their friends

[00:40:33] maybe didn’t have

[00:40:34] a great relationship

[00:40:35] with male relatives.

[00:40:37] So they didn’t really have

[00:40:38] anywhere to go

[00:40:40] to sort of learn

[00:40:41] how to be a man.

[00:40:42] And that was part of the reason

[00:40:44] why they felt kind of lost

[00:40:46] and were looking

[00:40:46] for these models online.

[00:40:48] And I do think

[00:40:49] that that has been

[00:40:50] a social shift

[00:40:51] over the past several decades

[00:40:53] that has really increased,

[00:40:54] not in, you know,

[00:40:56] traditionally marginalized communities,

[00:40:57] but everywhere.

[00:41:00] And the young men

[00:41:02] who seem to have

[00:41:03] sort of succeeded in some way

[00:41:05] or had a better grasp

[00:41:07] on masculinity

[00:41:08] or told me that they had found a mentor

[00:41:10] were guys who had found someone

[00:41:12] in their community somehow.

[00:41:14] One young guy told me about

[00:41:16] how his,

[00:41:18] his father wasn’t really

[00:41:19] part of his life,

[00:41:20] but he became friends

[00:41:22] with sort of a priest

[00:41:23] who was a chaplain at his school

[00:41:25] who sort of took him under his wing

[00:41:27] and like taught him

[00:41:28] how to buy nice shoes

[00:41:29] and like told him

[00:41:30] to ask women out on dates.

[00:41:32] And that was what helped him

[00:41:34] learn how to be a man.

[00:41:36] And, you know,

[00:41:37] he went on to talk about this

[00:41:38] and was sort of like,

[00:41:39] I think that this is a problem

[00:41:40] that we don’t have

[00:41:42] these father figures around,

[00:41:44] but it’s hard to imagine

[00:41:45] a policy solution

[00:41:46] because you can’t man,

[00:41:48] date community,

[00:41:50] you know,

[00:41:50] like you can’t just

[00:41:51] through fiat

[00:41:52] assign a father

[00:41:53] from the government

[00:41:54] to every young man

[00:41:55] who’s looking

[00:41:56] for a model or a mentor.

[00:41:58] So what are you going to

[00:42:00] do about it?

[00:42:01] In the past,

[00:42:02] maybe people would go to church

[00:42:03] and have an intergenerational friendships

[00:42:06] or be in clubs

[00:42:08] or lodges.

[00:42:10] And even if it wasn’t a relative,

[00:42:12] they might find a mentor there,

[00:42:13] but there are so many fewer

[00:42:15] male teachers

[00:42:16] in the school system.

[00:42:18] That you don’t see that

[00:42:19] happening as much anymore.

[00:42:20] And people just don’t join

[00:42:22] community organizations

[00:42:23] like they used to.

[00:42:25] Well, the friendship piece

[00:42:26] is interesting to me.

[00:42:27] But I mean,

[00:42:28] I don’t think our culture

[00:42:29] has a very coherent

[00:42:30] or wise philosophy

[00:42:32] of male friendship.

[00:42:33] And there’s already

[00:42:34] a very general

[00:42:35] loneliness epidemic,

[00:42:37] really, in the country.

[00:42:38] And it seems

[00:42:38] it’s even worse

[00:42:40] for men.

[00:42:41] Men report having

[00:42:42] even fewer friends

[00:42:43] than women.

[00:42:45] And that is a recipe

[00:42:47] for,

[00:42:47] for bad things,

[00:42:48] bad social outcomes.

[00:42:49] And I think that’s part

[00:42:50] of the piece here.

[00:42:50] But again,

[00:42:51] how the hell do you solve

[00:42:52] that kind of problem

[00:42:53] with a policy?

[00:42:54] You know, I don’t,

[00:42:55] I don’t know how you do that.

[00:42:57] That’s a cultural

[00:42:57] malaise, you know?

[00:43:00] Yeah, I mean,

[00:43:01] the U.S. Surgeon General

[00:43:02] said, I think,

[00:43:03] that loneliness

[00:43:04] was one of the top problems

[00:43:05] in America.

[00:43:06] And like,

[00:43:07] one of the top health problems

[00:43:08] in America.

[00:43:10] But,

[00:43:11] again,

[00:43:11] it’s hard to,

[00:43:12] I don’t know that he’s proposed

[00:43:14] like a

[00:43:14] policy to fix loneliness.

[00:43:16] And it’s hard to imagine

[00:43:19] what,

[00:43:19] what that would be.

[00:43:21] But I mean,

[00:43:21] you can kind of feel this.

[00:43:23] And it has effects

[00:43:24] in like a lot of different areas

[00:43:25] of society, right?

[00:43:26] Not just masculinity,

[00:43:28] but often masculinity.

[00:43:30] I mean,

[00:43:30] this is kind of a,

[00:43:31] a side note.

[00:43:32] But if you think about

[00:43:33] the Trump phenomenon,

[00:43:35] and David French wrote

[00:43:36] like an actually incredible

[00:43:38] column about this

[00:43:39] a couple weeks ago.

[00:43:40] One of the reasons

[00:43:41] why people

[00:43:42] seem to love going

[00:43:43] to Trump rallies

[00:43:44] and being MAGA fans

[00:43:45] is because they’re fun.

[00:43:47] It’s like a club.

[00:43:48] You can like meet people

[00:43:49] and you all hang out together

[00:43:51] and like are fans

[00:43:52] of Trump together.

[00:43:53] And it’s a social thing

[00:43:54] as much as it is

[00:43:55] a political thing.

[00:43:56] And then if you dive into that

[00:43:57] and think of specifically

[00:43:59] the Proud Boys,

[00:44:01] and this is where it turned

[00:44:02] into a masculinity thing.

[00:44:03] This group founded

[00:44:04] by Gavin McGinnis,

[00:44:06] he talks about it

[00:44:07] as a men’s fraternity

[00:44:09] for male friendship

[00:44:10] and teaching men

[00:44:11] how to be men.

[00:44:13] And it eventually

[00:44:14] devolved

[00:44:15] or maybe started

[00:44:15] as,

[00:44:16] you know,

[00:44:16] basically a right-wing

[00:44:18] hate group

[00:44:18] where they would

[00:44:19] go around

[00:44:20] and like beat up

[00:44:21] people they called Antifa

[00:44:22] and ended up

[00:44:23] storming the Capitol.

[00:44:25] But it began

[00:44:26] as like a group of men

[00:44:27] who wanted

[00:44:28] male buddies

[00:44:29] and they would wear

[00:44:30] matching shirts

[00:44:31] and like do silly

[00:44:32] cereal chugging contests.

[00:44:34] And it was,

[00:44:35] people were attracted to it

[00:44:36] because,

[00:44:37] oh,

[00:44:37] you join a club

[00:44:38] and there’s like a chapter

[00:44:39] in your city

[00:44:40] and you can

[00:44:40] go drinking together.

[00:44:42] And it was about friendship

[00:44:43] and turned into something ugly.

[00:44:45] I don’t want to let you

[00:44:46] off the hook here

[00:44:46] without asking you

[00:44:48] what you think

[00:44:50] a truly

[00:44:51] healthy masculinity

[00:44:52] looks like.

[00:44:53] And I’m actually

[00:44:54] very interested

[00:44:54] in your view of that

[00:44:55] as a woman.

[00:44:57] I’ve had similar conversations

[00:44:59] on the show

[00:44:59] but they were with men.

[00:45:00] And you identify

[00:45:03] three traits

[00:45:04] in the piece,

[00:45:05] you know,

[00:45:05] protector,

[00:45:07] provider,

[00:45:08] procreator.

[00:45:09] And I know

[00:45:10] a lot of people

[00:45:11] will hear that

[00:45:12] and not without reason

[00:45:14] immediately think

[00:45:15] of the patriarchy

[00:45:16] of yesteryear.

[00:45:16] Do you think

[00:45:18] that’s a mistake?

[00:45:19] Ah,

[00:45:20] yeah.

[00:45:21] Another great question.

[00:45:23] And,

[00:45:23] I mean,

[00:45:24] you can hear me giving

[00:45:25] sort of gusty sighs

[00:45:27] before each answer

[00:45:28] because even through

[00:45:29] writing the piece

[00:45:29] I was kind of

[00:45:30] wrestling with

[00:45:31] my reluctance

[00:45:33] to try and define

[00:45:34] masculinity

[00:45:35] or cheer on masculinity

[00:45:36] too much

[00:45:37] and like my feel

[00:45:38] that

[00:45:38] we actually need to.

[00:45:41] And,

[00:45:41] I don’t know,

[00:45:42] one of the things

[00:45:43] about the piece

[00:45:43] that seemed to

[00:45:44] strike a lot of people

[00:45:45] was like

[00:45:45] the fact that

[00:45:46] I admitted that

[00:45:47] I like men.

[00:45:49] Like,

[00:45:49] I like them.

[00:45:50] I want them to be happy.

[00:45:51] And I also do think

[00:45:53] that there is something

[00:45:53] distinctive

[00:45:54] that one could call

[00:45:56] manhood or masculinity

[00:45:57] that is

[00:45:58] a different thing

[00:45:59] than

[00:46:00] womanhood

[00:46:01] or femininity.

[00:46:03] So,

[00:46:04] you pulled out

[00:46:04] the concepts

[00:46:05] of

[00:46:05] protector,

[00:46:06] provider,

[00:46:07] procreator

[00:46:08] and I got those

[00:46:09] from

[00:46:09] the anthropologist

[00:46:11] David Gilmour

[00:46:12] who did this

[00:46:13] cross-cultural study

[00:46:14] a couple decades

[00:46:16] ago

[00:46:17] looking at

[00:46:18] what it meant

[00:46:19] to be a man

[00:46:19] in all of these

[00:46:20] different groups

[00:46:20] across several continents.

[00:46:22] And he found out

[00:46:23] that almost every society

[00:46:24] did have a concept

[00:46:26] of

[00:46:26] masculinity

[00:46:28] that was

[00:46:29] distinctive

[00:46:30] from just being male.

[00:46:32] It was like

[00:46:32] something that you earned

[00:46:33] and was also

[00:46:34] distinctive

[00:46:35] from being female.

[00:46:36] And,

[00:46:37] yeah,

[00:46:37] it had to do with

[00:46:38] being someone who

[00:46:39] protected the people

[00:46:41] around you

[00:46:41] and your community

[00:46:42] provided

[00:46:44] in some way

[00:46:45] for your family,

[00:46:46] and your site

[00:46:47] and that often looked like

[00:46:48] not just providing

[00:46:49] but like creating

[00:46:50] surplus

[00:46:51] in some ways

[00:46:52] and sharing that

[00:46:53] with others

[00:46:53] and then procreating

[00:46:55] like having a family

[00:46:56] and that was what

[00:46:57] being a successful male

[00:46:59] looked like.

[00:47:01] And,

[00:47:01] in

[00:47:02] our modern moment

[00:47:04] I think that

[00:47:05] can look like

[00:47:07] a lot of

[00:47:07] different things.

[00:47:09] I guess when I

[00:47:10] talk to

[00:47:11] men

[00:47:12] there’s like a call-out

[00:47:13] in the essay

[00:47:14] where I ask people

[00:47:15] to write in about

[00:47:16] like,

[00:47:16] what is their ideal

[00:47:17] of masculinity

[00:47:18] and why?

[00:47:19] And when I think about

[00:47:20] masculinity myself

[00:47:22] there are a couple

[00:47:22] of attributes

[00:47:23] that seem to come up

[00:47:24] a lot.

[00:47:26] And it’s stuff like

[00:47:27] strength used well

[00:47:29] and responsibility,

[00:47:32] duty,

[00:47:33] like performing your duty,

[00:47:34] looking out for

[00:47:35] people who are

[00:47:36] weaker than you.

[00:47:38] I think that

[00:47:40] there’s a pushback

[00:47:41] that I get

[00:47:42] very often

[00:47:42] and I talked about this

[00:47:43] earlier in our conversation

[00:47:44] where people are like,

[00:47:45] why do you have to say

[00:47:46] that’s being a good

[00:47:47] man?

[00:47:48] Why is leadership

[00:47:49] or ambition

[00:47:49] or adventurousness

[00:47:51] a male trait?

[00:47:52] Aren’t women leaders?

[00:47:53] Et cetera, et cetera.

[00:47:54] And of course,

[00:47:56] yes.

[00:47:57] But,

[00:47:58] I do think

[00:47:59] that

[00:48:00] being a good person

[00:48:01] is not

[00:48:02] a clear enough

[00:48:04] roadmap.

[00:48:05] It’s not a strong enough,

[00:48:06] like,

[00:48:07] a clear enough

[00:48:07] norm

[00:48:08] and that’s what

[00:48:09] younger people especially

[00:48:10] are looking for.

[00:48:11] I think what it means

[00:48:13] to be a good

[00:48:13] person

[00:48:14] is in some way

[00:48:16] tied to

[00:48:17] your

[00:48:18] embodiment.

[00:48:20] Your sort of

[00:48:21] human form

[00:48:21] as a male person

[00:48:23] or a female person.

[00:48:25] And so, for instance,

[00:48:26] men

[00:48:26] tend to be,

[00:48:28] though not always,

[00:48:29] much stronger than

[00:48:30] like the average woman

[00:48:31] or old person.

[00:48:32] So,

[00:48:33] being a good person,

[00:48:35] if that is your embodiment,

[00:48:37] necessarily means

[00:48:37] thinking about, like,

[00:48:38] what that says

[00:48:39] about your responsibilities.

[00:48:41] What do you do

[00:48:42] with that strength

[00:48:43] that you have,

[00:48:44] say, that other people

[00:48:44] don’t have?

[00:48:46] Richard Reeves talks about

[00:48:47] how masculinity

[00:48:49] and femininity

[00:48:50] or male and female

[00:48:51] overlap a lot,

[00:48:53] but on the

[00:48:54] sort of far ends

[00:48:55] of the spectrum,

[00:48:56] there are very big differences

[00:48:57] and that tends to be

[00:48:58] where sort of our

[00:48:59] definitions of male and female

[00:49:01] come from.

[00:49:01] And I think that’s

[00:49:02] valuable, too.

[00:49:03] Well, that’s one of the

[00:49:04] frustrations for me

[00:49:05] in this climate

[00:49:06] is that I do find it

[00:49:07] very difficult to live

[00:49:08] in the nuance

[00:49:09] on virtually any topic,

[00:49:10] but especially something

[00:49:11] like this where the topic

[00:49:12] really cries out

[00:49:14] for nuance.

[00:49:15] And, you know,

[00:49:16] it’s true,

[00:49:16] you can’t talk about

[00:49:17] masculinity and femininity

[00:49:19] without acknowledging

[00:49:20] some differences

[00:49:20] between the sexes.

[00:49:22] And yet,

[00:49:23] that acknowledgement

[00:49:23] is utterly compatible

[00:49:25] with the reality

[00:49:27] that much of

[00:49:28] what we call gender

[00:49:29] is a performance,

[00:49:31] is a cultural construct.

[00:49:34] And I don’t know why

[00:49:35] we seem unable

[00:49:36] to avoid this

[00:49:37] zero-sum trap.

[00:49:38] I mean, you see this

[00:49:38] in lots of other cultures

[00:49:39] where there’s a respect

[00:49:40] for the masculine

[00:49:41] and feminine ideal.

[00:49:42] There’s no zero-sum relationship.

[00:49:44] These are poles

[00:49:45] at opposite ends

[00:49:45] of the continuum.

[00:49:46] And possessing virtues

[00:49:47] at both ends

[00:49:48] of the spectrum

[00:49:49] is seen, rightly,

[00:49:51] as wise and healthy.

[00:49:52] I don’t know why

[00:49:53] we can’t do that.

[00:49:54] Yeah, America

[00:49:55] really likes extremes.

[00:49:57] I think we really like

[00:49:58] things that are

[00:49:58] very clear-cut

[00:49:59] and are one or the other.

[00:50:01] Or we are used

[00:50:02] to seeing things

[00:50:03] that are very clear-cut

[00:50:04] one end or the other

[00:50:05] and seeing them used

[00:50:06] to marginalize people

[00:50:09] or somehow denigrate people

[00:50:11] who don’t fit

[00:50:12] the exact norms.

[00:50:13] And I think people

[00:50:15] who think of themselves

[00:50:15] as, you know,

[00:50:15] good progressives

[00:50:17] and liberals

[00:50:17] really don’t want to do that

[00:50:19] and so shy away

[00:50:21] from espousing norms

[00:50:23] because they might

[00:50:24] leave someone out.

[00:50:27] And I understand that,

[00:50:28] but for the people

[00:50:30] who are asking

[00:50:31] for a roadmap,

[00:50:33] like, tell me who to be,

[00:50:35] saying, oh, just be

[00:50:36] whoever you want to be,

[00:50:37] but be a good one,

[00:50:38] it’s just not helpful.

[00:50:40] And I’ve had this argument

[00:50:41] with commenters

[00:50:42] on the piece

[00:50:42] and people online a lot

[00:50:43] where they’re like,

[00:50:44] well, you know,

[00:50:45] I just don’t think

[00:50:47] that we need to have

[00:50:48] a norm for masculinity.

[00:50:50] I don’t, as a, you know,

[00:50:51] 50-year-old, like,

[00:50:52] successful man,

[00:50:53] like, I know who I am

[00:50:54] and I don’t think

[00:50:54] we need to have a norm.

[00:50:56] And it’s kind of like,

[00:50:56] that’s great for you

[00:50:59] and I know that you think

[00:51:01] that’s the truth,

[00:51:01] but there are people

[00:51:02] literally crying out

[00:51:03] for a norm,

[00:51:04] saying, please help me.

[00:51:06] So what are you going

[00:51:09] to give them?

[00:51:10] And I also think

[00:51:10] that there’s an age thing here

[00:51:12] and I noticed this

[00:51:13] in responses to the piece, too.

[00:51:15] Often there were older men

[00:51:17] who would write in

[00:51:17] and are like,

[00:51:18] what’s the problem?

[00:51:18] I’m a man.

[00:51:19] I feel great about it.

[00:51:20] I don’t see the issue.

[00:51:21] And sort of like,

[00:51:22] that’s great for you.

[00:51:24] But for young people,

[00:51:25] I think when you’re young,

[00:51:27] you just, like,

[00:51:28] don’t have that much

[00:51:29] life experience.

[00:51:29] You’re trying to figure out

[00:51:31] who to be.

[00:51:32] And maybe having

[00:51:34] something of a norm

[00:51:35] or some sort of ideal,

[00:51:37] even if it’s loose,

[00:51:38] can be helpful

[00:51:39] to, like, point you

[00:51:40] in a direction.

[00:51:40] And then as you grow older

[00:51:42] and you get life experience

[00:51:43] and you figure out

[00:51:44] how you fit in the world,

[00:51:45] you make the norm up

[00:51:47] for yourself.

[00:51:49] But they’re looking

[00:51:50] for a starting point.

[00:51:52] Did you read that

[00:51:53] really wonderful essay

[00:51:54] by Phil Christman?

[00:51:56] It’s called

[00:51:56] What’s It Like to Be a Man?

[00:51:57] Yeah, it’s great.

[00:51:58] But he suggests in that

[00:51:59] that even the category

[00:52:00] non-binary

[00:52:01] probably does

[00:52:02] and probably should

[00:52:03] apply to all of us,

[00:52:05] really,

[00:52:06] to one degree or another

[00:52:07] because, again,

[00:52:08] these traits

[00:52:09] are sprinkled

[00:52:10] across a continuum.

[00:52:11] Most of us have

[00:52:11] traits or instincts

[00:52:12] at various points

[00:52:14] along that continuum,

[00:52:15] even though

[00:52:15] there are clusters.

[00:52:16] There’s no need

[00:52:17] for this rigidity,

[00:52:18] you know?

[00:52:18] Right.

[00:52:19] It’s a really juvenile,

[00:52:20] unhelpful binary.

[00:52:22] Yeah.

[00:52:22] I think that

[00:52:23] you can say that

[00:52:24] masculinity,

[00:52:25] specifically,

[00:52:26] is a good thing

[00:52:26] or that there are ways

[00:52:27] to be a good man,

[00:52:28] but there are also

[00:52:29] a lot of different models

[00:52:30] for how to be a good man.

[00:52:32] Not everyone has to be

[00:52:33] John Wayne.

[00:52:34] I’ve also

[00:52:35] very often felt like

[00:52:37] it’s,

[00:52:38] I think it’s a massive

[00:52:39] blind spot

[00:52:39] in our culture

[00:52:40] that we don’t have

[00:52:41] what other cultures,

[00:52:43] I guess,

[00:52:43] would call

[00:52:43] a rite of passage.

[00:52:45] You know,

[00:52:45] for young men,

[00:52:46] there is this need

[00:52:47] for a lot of boys,

[00:52:48] and I’m sure girls too,

[00:52:49] but it’s especially strong

[00:52:50] with boys

[00:52:51] to test yourself,

[00:52:53] to test your strength,

[00:52:54] court danger,

[00:52:55] and learn something

[00:52:55] about yourself

[00:52:56] on the other side.

[00:52:57] And we just don’t have

[00:52:58] any ritualized form of this

[00:53:00] where men

[00:53:01] shepherd other men

[00:53:03] into manhood.

[00:53:05] What we have instead

[00:53:06] is a lot of

[00:53:07] young men

[00:53:08] doing incredibly

[00:53:09] stupid shit

[00:53:10] and getting themselves

[00:53:11] hurt and killed

[00:53:13] and hurting

[00:53:13] and killing

[00:53:14] other people.

[00:53:15] At far greater rates

[00:53:16] than women.

[00:53:18] And I say all that

[00:53:18] just to kind of echo

[00:53:19] this broader point

[00:53:20] about the need

[00:53:20] to be honest

[00:53:21] about that reality

[00:53:21] and find ways

[00:53:22] to channel

[00:53:23] these instincts

[00:53:24] to more

[00:53:25] socially desirable ends.

[00:53:27] Because if we don’t,

[00:53:29] well,

[00:53:30] we can see

[00:53:30] what you get

[00:53:31] is the Andrew Tate-ification

[00:53:32] of men.

[00:53:34] Yeah,

[00:53:34] I think that’s

[00:53:35] a really important point

[00:53:36] and goes back to,

[00:53:38] so again,

[00:53:38] David Gilmour,

[00:53:39] this anthropologist

[00:53:40] I mentioned,

[00:53:41] and many other

[00:53:42] anthropologists

[00:53:43] have also identified

[00:53:44] this idea of

[00:53:45] rite of initiation

[00:53:46] or a rite of passage

[00:53:47] when it comes to

[00:53:48] defining manhood

[00:53:49] in a lot of cultures

[00:53:50] because of

[00:53:51] sort of

[00:53:52] development

[00:53:53] differences.

[00:53:54] Like,

[00:53:55] as a woman,

[00:53:56] you know,

[00:53:56] you reach menarche,

[00:53:58] like you get your period

[00:53:59] and it’s there

[00:54:00] and you sort of know

[00:54:01] that that’s happened

[00:54:02] and you can now

[00:54:03] have children.

[00:54:03] It’s sort of a very

[00:54:04] visible breakpoint

[00:54:05] in some ways.

[00:54:07] And obviously,

[00:54:08] men go through puberty,

[00:54:09] but it’s,

[00:54:10] I think it’s like

[00:54:11] not as clear.

[00:54:12] And so,

[00:54:13] it does seem that

[00:54:13] many societies

[00:54:14] and many societies

[00:54:15] have,

[00:54:17] in the absence of

[00:54:17] a sort of visible change,

[00:54:19] created this,

[00:54:21] whether it’s like

[00:54:21] you go on a vision quest

[00:54:23] or you’re apprenticed

[00:54:23] to like some other man

[00:54:24] or some way of

[00:54:26] turning a young male

[00:54:27] into a man

[00:54:28] that is sort of

[00:54:30] a ceremony

[00:54:30] and a rite of passage

[00:54:32] that you can

[00:54:32] look back on

[00:54:33] as a transition point.

[00:54:35] And a lot of the people

[00:54:36] who I interviewed

[00:54:39] and talked to

[00:54:40] and who responded

[00:54:41] to the call-out

[00:54:41] mentioned something like this.

[00:54:43] Richard Reeves actually

[00:54:44] has,

[00:54:45] some interesting riffs

[00:54:46] on this.

[00:54:47] He talks about,

[00:54:48] in sort of lamenting

[00:54:49] the lack of male teachers

[00:54:50] in schools,

[00:54:51] he notes that

[00:54:52] one of the problems

[00:54:52] with that is that

[00:54:53] there are fewer male coaches

[00:54:55] for male sports.

[00:54:57] And often it was

[00:54:58] sort of sports teams

[00:55:00] and sort of

[00:55:01] the regimented life

[00:55:02] of male sports

[00:55:03] that turned into

[00:55:05] a sort of rite

[00:55:05] of initiation for men

[00:55:07] or boy scouts

[00:55:08] and like becoming

[00:55:09] an eagle scout

[00:55:10] with your scout leader

[00:55:11] who teaches you

[00:55:12] how to be a scout.

[00:55:13] And there are fewer

[00:55:14] of these kind of

[00:55:15] male spaces

[00:55:16] in a way

[00:55:17] where that sort of

[00:55:19] transition with leadership

[00:55:21] happens.

[00:55:22] I do like the idea

[00:55:23] of getting more

[00:55:24] male teachers

[00:55:25] into these

[00:55:26] K through 12

[00:55:27] classrooms.

[00:55:28] And we talked a little bit

[00:55:29] about that with Richard Reeves.

[00:55:31] But, you know,

[00:55:31] we had a sharp

[00:55:32] listener

[00:55:33] wrote in

[00:55:34] and made a,

[00:55:35] I think,

[00:55:35] a pretty good point,

[00:55:36] which is that,

[00:55:37] yeah,

[00:55:37] there is a lack

[00:55:38] of male teachers.

[00:55:39] But one of the reasons

[00:55:40] for that is because

[00:55:41] men and male institutions

[00:55:43] historically have

[00:55:44] prescribed work

[00:55:45] and work,

[00:55:45] with children,

[00:55:46] as women’s work.

[00:55:48] And so women

[00:55:49] internalize those values

[00:55:50] and so did men.

[00:55:52] And that’s one of the reasons

[00:55:53] we’re in this predicament.

[00:55:54] And, you know,

[00:55:55] that doesn’t really

[00:55:55] help us get out of it,

[00:55:56] but it is an important

[00:55:57] thing to note.

[00:55:58] It’s one of the reasons

[00:55:59] we got here.

[00:55:59] We didn’t just

[00:56:00] fall into it.

[00:56:01] Yeah.

[00:56:01] And in some ways,

[00:56:02] it’s a bit of a

[00:56:03] chicken-egg situation,

[00:56:04] right?

[00:56:05] Yeah.

[00:56:05] Like, which came first?

[00:56:06] Because actually,

[00:56:07] if you look at the history

[00:56:08] of teaching,

[00:56:09] teaching was a male profession

[00:56:11] for a really,

[00:56:12] really long time.

[00:56:14] So, in some ways,

[00:56:15] there’s also a question of,

[00:56:17] okay,

[00:56:18] how would we entice men

[00:56:20] back into those professions?

[00:56:22] And I think then,

[00:56:23] also, we get back

[00:56:24] to this problem

[00:56:25] from the left

[00:56:27] and progressives

[00:56:27] where it’s like,

[00:56:28] entice men?

[00:56:29] Haven’t we done enough

[00:56:30] for men?

[00:56:31] Do we really need

[00:56:32] to give men scholarships?

[00:56:34] But if you really want

[00:56:35] to change the dynamics somehow,

[00:56:37] it will be a sort of

[00:56:39] social and norms change,

[00:56:40] and that actually does

[00:56:42] take time and incentives.

[00:56:44] It’s going to be

[00:56:45] a long process.

[00:56:45] It’s going to be a cultural

[00:56:46] and political project.

[00:56:47] I think we both

[00:56:50] probably agree that

[00:56:52] the left has got to find a way

[00:56:54] through this discomfort.

[00:56:55] We need a confident story

[00:56:57] to tell that’s inspiring

[00:56:59] and empowering to men,

[00:57:01] but one that isn’t weighed down

[00:57:03] by regressive hierarchies.

[00:57:07] And an interesting challenge

[00:57:09] for the left

[00:57:09] that I think you hinted at earlier

[00:57:11] is that this is an area

[00:57:13] in which the openness

[00:57:14] of the left,

[00:57:15] the kind of live

[00:57:16] and let live mentality,

[00:57:17] the refusal for good reasons

[00:57:18] to say,

[00:57:19] this is the way to live

[00:57:20] and this is the way to be,

[00:57:22] leaves them at a disadvantage

[00:57:23] to conservatives

[00:57:24] who are very clear

[00:57:25] about their values

[00:57:27] and the hierarchies

[00:57:28] that follow from those values.

[00:57:30] And it’s easy for them to say,

[00:57:32] this is the way it was

[00:57:34] and it was good

[00:57:34] and true and right.

[00:57:36] They know the story.

[00:57:37] They know the story

[00:57:38] they’re telling.

[00:57:38] They have their meta-narratives.

[00:57:40] You know,

[00:57:40] what the left can’t do,

[00:57:42] and I think you say this explicitly,

[00:57:43] is it can’t just say

[00:57:44] masculinity,

[00:57:45] as such,

[00:57:46] is toxic.

[00:57:47] There has got to be

[00:57:47] an affirmative vision,

[00:57:49] something positive

[00:57:49] and concrete.

[00:57:50] Otherwise,

[00:57:51] what you get

[00:57:52] is just a negation.

[00:57:53] And that’s not enough

[00:57:54] because it makes

[00:57:55] the masculinity

[00:57:55] we’re left with

[00:57:56] nothing but just crude,

[00:57:58] dumb,

[00:57:58] anti-femininity.

[00:58:00] And that’s a road to nowhere

[00:58:01] or it’s a road

[00:58:01] to ugly places.

[00:58:03] No, absolutely.

[00:58:03] I mean,

[00:58:04] I do think that that is

[00:58:05] one of the biggest challenges

[00:58:07] for the left

[00:58:08] when it comes to masculinity

[00:58:10] and also when it comes to

[00:58:12] policy more generally.

[00:58:14] You know,

[00:58:15] it’s not enough

[00:58:15] to just criticize

[00:58:17] or say that something is bad.

[00:58:19] We have to provide

[00:58:21] a beautiful vision,

[00:58:22] an aspirational vision

[00:58:23] that people want

[00:58:24] and are drawn to.

[00:58:26] If you’re a man,

[00:58:27] say,

[00:58:28] are you more attracted

[00:58:28] to someone who says,

[00:58:30] like,

[00:58:30] these qualities about you

[00:58:31] are great.

[00:58:32] We support them.

[00:58:33] Here’s how you do them better.

[00:58:34] Or someone who says,

[00:58:36] uh,

[00:58:36] they’re toxic, actually.

[00:58:37] They suck.

[00:58:38] And, um,

[00:58:40] yeah,

[00:58:40] that’s all we’ve got for you.

[00:58:42] Like,

[00:58:42] there has to be

[00:58:43] a positive vision

[00:58:44] for any

[00:58:44] person

[00:58:45] or any policy,

[00:58:46] any movement.

[00:58:46] Otherwise,

[00:58:47] people don’t want to go there.

[00:58:49] Yeah, I mean,

[00:58:49] I have a son.

[00:58:50] You know,

[00:58:51] he’s four years old.

[00:58:51] He’s a kind of a recurring

[00:58:53] character on the pod.

[00:58:54] He’s a recurring character

[00:58:55] on the pod, I guess,

[00:58:56] because parenthood at the moment

[00:58:57] is such a huge part

[00:58:58] of my life experience now.

[00:59:00] So it’s kind of,

[00:59:01] I can’t help but end up

[00:59:02] talking about it.

[00:59:03] Because he’s four,

[00:59:04] he’s too young

[00:59:05] to have come to me

[00:59:07] and said,

[00:59:08] you know,

[00:59:08] Dad,

[00:59:08] what does it mean

[00:59:09] to be a good man?

[00:59:10] I don’t have a simple answer.

[00:59:12] And to the extent

[00:59:13] I do have answers,

[00:59:15] it doesn’t sound like

[00:59:16] an answer to the question,

[00:59:17] what is it like

[00:59:18] to be a good man?

[00:59:18] It sounds like the answer

[00:59:19] to the question,

[00:59:20] what is it like

[00:59:21] or what does it mean

[00:59:21] to be a good human being?

[00:59:23] You know,

[00:59:23] tell the truth,

[00:59:24] be kind,

[00:59:25] care about suffering,

[00:59:26] be physically

[00:59:27] and mentally strong

[00:59:28] and be brave

[00:59:29] and vulnerable,

[00:59:29] laugh,

[00:59:30] cry as much as possible.

[00:59:31] You know,

[00:59:31] I mean,

[00:59:32] it’s a rambling answer

[00:59:33] and obviously,

[00:59:34] I’m going to need

[00:59:35] a better one.

[00:59:35] Maybe for me,

[00:59:36] it doesn’t really matter

[00:59:38] what I say.

[00:59:38] The job of me as a dad

[00:59:40] is to just model

[00:59:41] what it means

[00:59:42] to be a good human being

[00:59:44] and a good man

[00:59:44] and hopefully

[00:59:45] that serves him well.

[00:59:47] But I don’t know

[00:59:47] if you’re a parent or not,

[00:59:48] but do you have

[00:59:49] a better answer

[00:59:50] to that question?

[00:59:51] Can you give me one?

[00:59:52] If you did have a son,

[00:59:54] assuming you don’t,

[00:59:55] and he asked you

[00:59:55] that question

[00:59:56] after having thought

[00:59:57] about this,

[00:59:58] what would you say?

[00:59:59] Oh,

[00:59:59] that’s,

[01:00:00] that’s so interesting.

[01:00:03] So,

[01:00:03] one of the things

[01:00:04] that I heard a lot

[01:00:05] in response to this piece too

[01:00:06] was that

[01:00:07] from parents

[01:00:08] who are like,

[01:00:08] you know,

[01:00:09] I’ve given a lot of thought

[01:00:10] about how to raise

[01:00:11] a strong woman

[01:00:13] or,

[01:00:13] you know,

[01:00:14] like my little girl

[01:00:14] to be,

[01:00:15] but I never really

[01:00:16] thought about

[01:00:16] how to raise a son

[01:00:17] to be a good man.

[01:00:20] It’s just like

[01:00:21] not something

[01:00:21] we think about as clearly.

[01:00:22] I think that the answer

[01:00:23] that you gave

[01:00:24] is kind of as good

[01:00:25] as any.

[01:00:26] I do

[01:00:27] still kind of

[01:00:28] go back to that

[01:00:29] embodiment question

[01:00:31] in a way too

[01:00:32] where,

[01:00:33] you know,

[01:00:34] I would

[01:00:34] sort of like note

[01:00:35] some of these features

[01:00:36] like,

[01:00:36] oh,

[01:00:37] you’re like

[01:00:37] a boy

[01:00:39] and that girl

[01:00:40] is a lot smaller than you.

[01:00:41] You should

[01:00:42] probably not hit her.

[01:00:44] You have an unfair

[01:00:44] advantage here.

[01:00:45] Like,

[01:00:45] what do those specific

[01:00:46] things that come with

[01:00:47] being a boy entail?

[01:00:49] Maybe I would think

[01:00:50] about that too,

[01:00:51] but I don’t know.

[01:00:53] A lot of people

[01:00:54] sort of called out

[01:00:56] kind of old codes

[01:00:58] for masculinity

[01:01:00] in their responses

[01:01:01] to what the ideal

[01:01:02] masculinity is.

[01:01:04] And I did think

[01:01:05] that a lot of them

[01:01:06] were really interesting.

[01:01:08] There’s the Rudyard Kipling

[01:01:09] poem,

[01:01:09] If,

[01:01:10] which is,

[01:01:11] you know,

[01:01:12] problematic

[01:01:12] in a number of ways,

[01:01:14] but is,

[01:01:14] a sort of really

[01:01:15] interesting discourse

[01:01:16] on how to be a man.

[01:01:18] There’s

[01:01:18] Cardinal John Henry Newman’s

[01:01:20] The Model of a Gentleman,

[01:01:22] which talks about how

[01:01:23] a man makes people

[01:01:24] comfortable in his

[01:01:25] presence

[01:01:26] and is never

[01:01:27] overwhelming

[01:01:28] and like it’s his job

[01:01:29] to sort of

[01:01:30] shepherd

[01:01:30] the weak

[01:01:31] and stand up for them.

[01:01:33] Someone else quoted

[01:01:34] the

[01:01:34] Cowboy’s Code,

[01:01:37] which

[01:01:37] talks about how

[01:01:39] a man should be

[01:01:40] nice to old people

[01:01:42] and animals,

[01:01:43] be a patriot,

[01:01:44] and be a man

[01:01:44] and have skills

[01:01:45] and know how to use them.

[01:01:46] And it’s like kind of

[01:01:47] old-fashioned

[01:01:47] and it’s every stanza

[01:01:49] is framed as a cowboy,

[01:01:50] but it was actually

[01:01:51] kind of nice.

[01:01:52] And I wonder if there is a way,

[01:01:54] I think,

[01:01:55] to look to past models,

[01:01:57] which stuck around,

[01:01:59] I think,

[01:01:59] because they did

[01:02:00] resonate with a lot of men

[01:02:02] and a lot of people

[01:02:03] found them useful

[01:02:04] over the years

[01:02:05] and see what good

[01:02:06] there is there

[01:02:07] and try and

[01:02:08] take that resonant good

[01:02:10] and bring it forward

[01:02:11] while being careful

[01:02:12] to begin to separate out

[01:02:14] what is no good,

[01:02:14] what is no longer useful,

[01:02:15] or what is bad.

[01:02:17] Maybe the point here is

[01:02:18] there are many ways

[01:02:20] to be a good man

[01:02:22] and not all of them require

[01:02:23] deadlifting 500 pounds

[01:02:25] or riding horses.

[01:02:26] It was a true pleasure

[01:02:28] to talk to you again,

[01:02:29] Christine.

[01:02:30] I encourage everyone

[01:02:31] to go and read

[01:02:32] your really wonderful

[01:02:33] and admirably

[01:02:34] nuanced piece.

[01:02:37] And congratulations again

[01:02:38] on your

[01:02:39] friend of the pod status.

[01:02:40] Checks in the mail.

[01:02:41] Amazing.

[01:02:42] Hopefully I’ll come back again.

[01:02:43] Thanks for having me.

[01:02:44] I appreciate it.

[01:02:45] Bye.

[01:02:45] Bye.

[01:02:45] Bye.

[01:02:45] Bye.

[01:02:45] Bye.

[01:02:45] Bye.

[01:02:45] Bye.

[01:02:45] Bye.

[01:02:45] Bye.

[01:02:46] Bye.

[01:02:46] Bye.

[01:02:46] Bye.

[01:02:46] Bye.

[01:02:46] Bye.

[01:02:46] Bye.

[01:02:46] Bye.

[01:02:46] Bye.

[01:02:46] Bye.

[01:02:46] Bye.

[01:02:46] Bye.

[01:02:51] Bye.

[01:02:51] Bye.

[01:02:51] Okay, Julian,

[01:02:52] we need to do the credits now.

[01:02:55] Now you say.

[01:02:56] Patrick Boyd,

[01:02:58] engineer,

[01:02:59] this episode.

[01:03:00] Oh, that was so good.

[01:03:02] Alex Overington

[01:03:03] wrote our theme music.

[01:03:04] Serena Solin

[01:03:05] is our fact checker

[01:03:06] and A.M. Hall

[01:03:07] is the boss.

[01:03:09] Special thanks

[01:03:09] to Caitlin Boguki.

[01:03:12] As always,

[01:03:13] let us know

[01:03:13] what you think.

[01:03:14] Drop us a line

[01:03:15] at thegrayareaatbox.com.

[01:03:19] If you dug this episode,

[01:03:21] share the link

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[01:03:25] All right,

[01:03:25] last thing.

[01:03:26] Okay, last thing

[01:03:27] you got to say.

[01:03:28] And remember,

[01:03:29] new episodes

[01:03:30] of The Gray Area

[01:03:31] now drop on Monday.

[01:03:36] Listen and subscribe.

[01:03:38] Listen and subscribe.

[01:03:40] Yeah.