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9 Years - Persistence by Reducing Expectation

Summary

In this reflective episode marking nine years of Developer Tea, the host shares personal gratitude for the podcast’s journey and its impact on his life. He discusses how the show has become an extension of his identity and a routine for self-reflection, thanking listeners for their support over the years.

The core topic explores the relationship between expectations and persistence. The host explains that his ability to continue the podcast for nine years stems from regularly adjusting his expectations about what the show “should” be. He emphasizes that holding expectations too tightly can create unnecessary suffering when reality doesn’t match our imagined futures.

Using the example of a software engineer who enjoys their job but becomes frustrated after not receiving an expected promotion, the host illustrates how expectations can transform positive situations into sources of disappointment. He describes how our brains struggle to distinguish between imagined futures and reality, leading to genuine feelings of loss when expectations aren’t met.

The host shares his own experience with podcast metrics, explaining how he initially tried to calibrate his expectations based on listenership numbers but realized this was causing him to “lose the plot” of why he started the podcast. He now focuses on the core purpose—helping developers find clarity, perspective, and purpose—while reducing the leverage expectations have over his work.

He concludes by encouraging listeners to identify areas in their lives where expectations might be hindering persistence, suggesting they write down expectations that weren’t met and imagine how they would feel without those expectations. The key distinction is between expectations (about outcomes we can’t control) and plans (inputs we can control), with the recommendation to focus less on outcome expectations and more on the intrinsic value of the work itself.

Recommendations

Communities

  • Developer Tea Discord — The host invites listeners to join the free Developer Tea Discord community at developertea.com/Discord to discuss episodes, ask questions, and connect with other community members.

Practices

  • Expectation evaluation exercise — The host recommends writing down areas of life where you’ve had unmet expectations in the past year, then imagining what it would have been like without those expectations. This helps recognize how expectations create unnecessary suffering.
  • Focus on core purpose — For maintaining persistence in long-term projects, the host suggests focusing on the original core reason for starting something rather than getting distracted by outcome expectations like metrics or external validation.

Topic Timeline

  • 00:00:00 — Ninth anniversary reflection and gratitude — The host expresses gratitude for nine years of Developer Tea, acknowledging how the podcast has become part of his identity and self-reflection routine. He thanks listeners for their support over the years, whether they’re new or have been listening since the beginning. The host emphasizes that he’s not announcing the end of the show but wants to reflect on what has made persistence possible.
  • 00:03:01 — The key to nine years of persistence — The host addresses how he’s maintained the podcast for nine years, explaining that he doesn’t feel like he’s done the same thing because his expectations have regularly changed. He identifies adjusting expectations as the critical factor that allows him to continue regardless of circumstances. The key insight is “reducing the power of your expectations” to enable persistence in creative work and careers.
  • 00:05:36 — How expectations create suffering in software careers — Using a software engineering example, the host illustrates how expectations can transform positive situations into sources of frustration. He describes an engineer who loves their job but develops an expectation of promotion, then feels genuine loss when the promotion doesn’t happen—even though nothing was actually lost. The brain’s inability to distinguish between imagined futures and reality creates this suffering.
  • 00:09:27 — Personal experience with podcast expectations — The host shares his own journey with podcast expectations, from early success that exceeded expectations to later struggles with comparing episode performance metrics. He explains how he started trying to calibrate expectations based on listenership numbers but realized this was causing him to lose sight of the podcast’s original purpose. The metrics were competing with the core reason for doing the show.
  • 00:13:24 — Actively reducing expectations to regain focus — The host describes his current practice of actively reducing expectations about the podcast and other areas of life. He explains how expectations can cause people to abandon things they genuinely enjoy when reality doesn’t match their imagined futures. The solution is to evaluate expectations and reduce their leverage over our decisions and emotional states.
  • 00:16:04 — Distinguishing expectations from plans — The host clarifies that he’s not advocating against planning, but rather distinguishing between expectations (about outcomes we can’t control) and plans (inputs we can control). Expectations reflect beliefs about the efficacy of our planning while masking our inability to recognize all factors affecting outcomes. The recommendation is to focus less on outcome expectations and more on the intrinsic value of the work.

Episode Info

  • Podcast: Developer Tea
  • Author: Jonathan Cutrell
  • Category: Technology Business Careers Society & Culture
  • Published: 2024-01-05T08:00:00Z
  • Duration: 00:18:14

References

Podcast Info

Transcript

[00:00:00] It’s a little difficult for me to believe that it’s been nine years as of the day that

[00:00:20] this podcast, this episode releases, it’s been nine years since this podcast started.

[00:00:26] And I’m so grateful for everything that I’ve learned on this show.

[00:00:32] By the way, I’ve got a little bit of a cold, you might be hearing that, but I couldn’t

[00:00:35] let this particular date pass without releasing an episode, cold or not.

[00:00:41] This podcast has meant so much to me over the last nine years.

[00:00:47] Don’t worry, I’m not getting ready to announce that we’re canceling or anything like that.

[00:00:51] I just want to take a moment to reflect and say thank you.

[00:00:55] It’s very rare that I talk about myself, my personal feelings on this show, at least anything

[00:01:01] deeper than my opinions, but I’m very fulfilled by the opportunity to do this podcast.

[00:01:09] I know the years it has changed and it will continue to change just like I will continue

[00:01:13] to change.

[00:01:14] That’s actually what we’re going to talk about after this reflection, this moment of reflection

[00:01:18] for me.

[00:01:19] We’re going to talk about how you can configure your brain for change, to invite change.

[00:01:26] But I do want to take a moment and just show my appreciation for all of you who are listening

[00:01:31] right now.

[00:01:32] Maybe this is the first time you’re listening, maybe you’ve been listening for nine years.

[00:01:36] Maybe you followed us all the way through when we were a part of the Spec Network.

[00:01:41] Maybe you’ve been with us since the very beginning in our earliest sponsored days or throughout

[00:01:47] all of the many interviews that we’ve done with the awesome guests, whatever your journey

[00:01:52] with Developer T has been, I just want to say that I sincerely appreciate that you’re

[00:01:56] spending a few moments of your life listening to me talk on this podcast.

[00:02:00] We may never meet in person.

[00:02:02] Some of you I have met in person or I’ve met you virtually online, but this is such a meaningful

[00:02:08] thing to me.

[00:02:09] It’s become a part of my kind of routine, my self-reflection routine.

[00:02:15] So many times something will happen in my personal life, I’ll have some experience

[00:02:20] or I’ll have some insight while I’m just hanging out with my family or when I’m exercising

[00:02:26] or if I’m participating in one of my ridiculously long list of hobbies that I have.

[00:02:33] This show is always in the back of my mind.

[00:02:36] If I have an epiphany that I feel like is worth sharing, it happens in all parts of

[00:02:42] my life and this truly is an extension of who I am.

[00:02:45] So thank you so much, genuinely from the bottom of my heart.

[00:02:49] I’ve enjoyed doing this so much and I can’t wait to do more of it.

[00:02:53] I have been asked many times either implicitly or explicitly how I’ve done this show for

[00:03:01] so long.

[00:03:02] How can I keep going for so long?

[00:03:06] And the truth is that I don’t feel like I’ve done the same thing for nine years.

[00:03:12] Most of the people who listen to the show, you might perceive that a little bit differently

[00:03:16] because the show in large part, when it actually gets delivered, when you’re hearing the show,

[00:03:22] you’re still hearing the same intro music as we started with nine years ago, right?

[00:03:26] So there are not a ton that has changed about this.

[00:03:29] Me standing in front of a microphone, sharing my opinions, sharing insights from my experience

[00:03:34] in the industry, interviewing other people.

[00:03:37] All of these format things have not changed drastically.

[00:03:41] We have had some shifts in topics, et cetera.

[00:03:44] But the way that I interact with what I’m doing has changed significantly.

[00:03:50] There have been schedule changes.

[00:03:52] There have been patterns in my life that I’ve been able to adjust so that the output of

[00:03:57] the show doesn’t really necessarily have to change very much.

[00:04:00] But everything surrounding it can change pretty drastically, especially my own expectations.

[00:04:07] This is probably the critical factor and the one I want to hone in on in this discussion

[00:04:12] today.

[00:04:14] My expectations for what this show could or should be have changed on a very regular basis

[00:04:22] over the course of the last nine years.

[00:04:25] And in some ways, that affects what I do with the show in terms of the types of content

[00:04:31] that I might produce or the kinds of guests I might have on.

[00:04:35] But the biggest thing that it allows me to do is continue regardless of what happens.

[00:04:43] This is the key to persistence, at least in this particular case, the key to persistence

[00:04:48] for me.

[00:04:49] And I suspect that the key to persistence for you may look very similar.

[00:04:57] Adjusting your own expectations or a better way to put it is reducing the power of your

[00:05:03] expectations.

[00:05:06] Reducing the power of your expectations.

[00:05:09] Now, this sounds like I’m going to go into some kind of like Buddhist teaching or something

[00:05:14] here, but that’s not really the intention.

[00:05:16] The intention is to identify areas where you have an expectation of what will occur, whether

[00:05:23] it’s with a podcast or with your code or with your career or with your family or friends,

[00:05:29] looking at those expectations and holding them loosely.

[00:05:34] Because here’s what can happen.

[00:05:36] If we build up an expectation, if we build up an expectation, we begin to wrap our actions

[00:05:44] in our thoughts around that expectation.

[00:05:50] And instead of thinking about the thing that we’re doing in that moment, instead of thinking

[00:05:54] about, say, the process, instead of thinking about writing that particular piece of code

[00:06:00] with quality in mind, we start to think about some expectation.

[00:06:06] And by the way, expectation doesn’t necessarily have to be some irrational load that you’re

[00:06:13] putting on a situation.

[00:06:15] It can be totally rational.

[00:06:17] Your expectation of what should happen, what is likely to happen, what could happen, all

[00:06:22] of these types of expectations, we bring them to the table.

[00:06:26] We begin to wrap all of what we do around them.

[00:06:29] And in fact, the purpose for the thing that we’re doing becomes the expectation.

[00:06:35] Think about this as it plays out in your normal life or in your life as a software engineer.

[00:06:42] Let’s imagine that you are working your job as a associate software engineer, whatever

[00:06:47] your entry level position or mid level position, software engineer.

[00:06:51] And in no uncertain terms, you really love your job.

[00:06:55] You enjoy your day to day work.

[00:06:56] You enjoy the people you work with.

[00:06:58] You enjoy the kind of problems that you’re solving.

[00:07:00] You feel sufficiently challenged.

[00:07:02] You feel excited.

[00:07:04] But that little expectation starts to grow inside of you.

[00:07:09] The expectation of getting a promotion, of achieving a particular title or maybe even

[00:07:14] a salary.

[00:07:15] Your work continues.

[00:07:16] You keep on enjoying every day that you walk into work.

[00:07:20] But now the expectation is kind of living alongside that.

[00:07:24] You know that reviews are around the corner.

[00:07:27] You’re going to be either up for promotion or not.

[00:07:30] You talk to your manager.

[00:07:32] They put you up for promotion and you get a rejection.

[00:07:36] Now this expectation that you had has created a differential.

[00:07:43] It’s created a picture of something that you ostensibly thought would be good for you

[00:07:47] or would be desirable for you.

[00:07:50] This fork in the road.

[00:07:52] But it’s all a fiction.

[00:07:54] It never actually happened.

[00:07:56] It’s just a comparison point that you’ve created in your own mind.

[00:08:02] It’s all a fiction.

[00:08:03] And so now you’re in some kind of suffering.

[00:08:09] You’re experiencing a negative feeling.

[00:08:11] You’re experiencing frustration or maybe you’re feeling a sense of imposter syndrome.

[00:08:17] Maybe you begin to develop resentment towards your manager or resentment towards the people

[00:08:23] who ultimately made the decision not to promote you.

[00:08:28] And what otherwise was an excellent job that you were enjoying yourself, you could have

[00:08:33] continued on, the promotion had you not developed an expectation, a promotion would be a bonus

[00:08:42] something that you appreciate.

[00:08:43] Instead, your expectation turned it into something that you felt like you lost.

[00:08:50] Let’s think about this for a second.

[00:08:52] You obviously didn’t lose anything.

[00:08:55] But because you’ve trained your mind into thinking about an expectation, your mind is

[00:09:02] an incredibly powerful thing.

[00:09:04] You’ve developed this very thorough story about yourself in a future world where that

[00:09:12] expectation has been met.

[00:09:14] And now you’re living in a world where that expectation has not been met.

[00:09:19] And because your brain can’t really tell the difference between imagination and reality,

[00:09:24] you actually feel a sense of loss.

[00:09:27] When I first started developer T, I actually had the opposite experience.

[00:09:30] I didn’t really know what was going to happen with the podcast.

[00:09:33] I was very fortunate.

[00:09:34] I was very lucky that the podcast gained the traction that it did.

[00:09:40] And I had the opposite experience.

[00:09:42] It was my expectation that I would continue working on the podcast for years before it

[00:09:46] ever gained traction or something like that.

[00:09:49] But it gained traction very early.

[00:09:50] And so something broke my expectation in a positive way.

[00:09:54] But then as the years went on, the previous performance of the podcast, I thought I was

[00:10:00] having a rational response as I was looking at the numbers, like look at the listenership,

[00:10:07] for example.

[00:10:09] And if one episode dipped below another episode, I realized that there was a differential between

[00:10:15] my expectation of how that podcast episode should have performed and how it actually

[00:10:21] performed.

[00:10:23] And now I’m trying to rationalize in my mind the reason for the differential.

[00:10:28] Just like you might do that.

[00:10:30] If you didn’t get the promotion, well, why didn’t I get the promotion?

[00:10:33] Maybe I’m not good enough for the promotion.

[00:10:35] Maybe I screwed something up.

[00:10:37] Maybe I said something wrong.

[00:10:38] Maybe that particular project that could have worked extra hours on and maybe that would

[00:10:42] have impressed my boss’s boss’s boss.

[00:10:45] All of these things are born out of the differential between reality and our expectation.

[00:10:51] And so I would spend time trying to analyze what kind of content is it that has a better

[00:10:57] listenership than other content.

[00:11:00] What kind of seasonality should I expect?

[00:11:02] There’s all of these things that I was trying to calibrate my expectations.

[00:11:05] I was trying to change the way that I would expect so I could be more accurate with my

[00:11:10] expectations in the future.

[00:11:12] And this is, again, a rational thing to do.

[00:11:15] We want to be able to predict the future.

[00:11:16] It’s one of the things that we really want to do as humans because predicting the future

[00:11:21] allows us to reduce risk and also take advantage of benefits that we can see coming down the

[00:11:26] road.

[00:11:27] So predicting the future is a natural tendency to want to try to evaluate our expectations

[00:11:35] and tune them so that they’re better.

[00:11:38] But what I realized is that all of that tuning was not really the core of why I started the

[00:11:43] show to begin with.

[00:11:46] I didn’t start this show, as crazy as it seems, purely for the pursuit of making money.

[00:11:54] Podcasts are not the money-making tree that you might expect that they are.

[00:11:58] I’ve been fortunate enough to make some money with this podcast.

[00:12:01] You know that because you’ve heard episodes in the past where I’ve had sponsors.

[00:12:06] But I didn’t start this with that in mind.

[00:12:09] And so the listenership of the show started to compete for the core reason I started this

[00:12:15] podcast in the first place.

[00:12:18] It took me a while to find the tagline that you all probably have heard.

[00:12:23] But to help developers find a clarity, perspective, and purpose is my core reason.

[00:12:28] Now, if I can help more developers do that, then even better.

[00:12:35] That’s great.

[00:12:36] But what I failed to do was recognize that the number of engineers listening to the show,

[00:12:42] the number of audience per episode, the number of unique downloads, I was starting to tune

[00:12:49] myself towards that number rather than allowing that number to be an outcome that I don’t

[00:12:56] have any control over.

[00:12:57] I was trying to control that outcome.

[00:12:58] I was trying to align my expectations and correct my process to improve the outcomes

[00:13:06] towards my expectations.

[00:13:09] Sometimes this is a reasonable thing to do.

[00:13:11] Sometimes you should do this.

[00:13:12] But in this case, I was losing the plot.

[00:13:15] I was losing the core reason why I started the show in the first place.

[00:13:19] So one of the things that I’m doing, and I’ve been doing it for a couple of years now, is

[00:13:24] I’m actively trying to reduce my expectations of developer T and in other areas of my life.

[00:13:31] Reduce the leverage that my expectations have over my life.

[00:13:38] Because the truth is, in that situation where you didn’t get that promotion that you thought

[00:13:43] you were going to get, it’s very tempting to say, you know what?

[00:13:46] That’s it.

[00:13:47] I’m throwing in the towel.

[00:13:48] I’m leaving this company.

[00:13:49] I’m going to go somewhere that actually respects my experience and is going to give me the

[00:13:56] title that I want.

[00:13:58] And this is how your expectations can stop you from continuing something that you really

[00:14:05] love doing.

[00:14:06] You really love that job, but you decided to stop it because your expectations created

[00:14:11] a differential between your reality, which, by the way, you really enjoyed, and some other

[00:14:18] reality that never was true.

[00:14:21] When listenership has waxed and waned over the years of this show, I could have thrown

[00:14:26] in the towel.

[00:14:27] I could have said, you know what?

[00:14:29] I can’t attract the same number of listeners.

[00:14:32] I can’t attract the same kinds of sponsors anymore because my listenership is down and

[00:14:37] therefore it’s not worth doing.

[00:14:39] My expectations of the show have failed in that case.

[00:14:44] I expected to have X number of listeners, therefore I could get Y number of sponsors

[00:14:49] and I’ve had less than X, therefore the show is no longer worth doing.

[00:14:54] This again is losing the plot.

[00:14:56] So evaluate those expectations.

[00:14:59] I really encourage you to take a few minutes, whether you’re doing it now or later, write

[00:15:06] down some areas of your life where you have, maybe in the past year, upon reflection, you’ve

[00:15:13] had some expectations that you failed to meet, whether it’s expectations of yourself, maybe

[00:15:19] it’s expectations of other people, something that was significant.

[00:15:23] And try to imagine what it would have been like had you not developed expectations.

[00:15:30] It’s very hard to do, by the way.

[00:15:32] Don’t get me wrong.

[00:15:33] This is not something that’s easy to do.

[00:15:35] When we develop expectations and then we invest in those expectations, that’s really where

[00:15:40] we go wrong.

[00:15:42] Expectations on their own are kind of a natural byproduct of our thinking brain.

[00:15:46] We have some expectation of what will happen, but when we start to invest in that expectation,

[00:15:53] when we start to plan on it, we start making changes based on it, that’s where things can

[00:15:59] get a little bit wonky.

[00:16:00] Now, briefly, I want to make sure that you understand that I’m not talking about creating

[00:16:04] plans.

[00:16:07] Plans are these longer term expectations we have of what we might do in the future.

[00:16:13] Instead, think about this as the meta layer.

[00:16:17] For example, I expect that I will fulfill all of my plans.

[00:16:23] This is a meta expectation that I have of what’s going to happen with my planning process.

[00:16:30] My planning is going to be perfect.

[00:16:31] That would be an expectation.

[00:16:33] The plan itself is just what you think about doing, what you’re planning to do is not necessarily

[00:16:38] an expectation of how things are going to go.

[00:16:42] Probably the easiest line to draw in the sand is expectations are about outcomes that you

[00:16:46] can’t control, while plans are more like inputs that you can control.

[00:16:51] Our expectations reflect what we believe about the efficacy of our planning, but our expectations

[00:16:58] also mask our inability to recognize all of the many factors that may impact outcomes

[00:17:07] beyond our control.

[00:17:09] Ultimately, I’ve been incredibly happy to do this show, and I expect to continue being

[00:17:16] happy doing this show.

[00:17:19] The way that I ensure that that will happen is that I focus on that core reason why I

[00:17:25] started doing this show in the first place.

[00:17:27] If that disappears, then I will.

[00:17:29] I will shut the show down, but I don’t see that disappearing anytime soon, and that’s

[00:17:34] because of all of you.

[00:17:36] Thanks so much for listening to today’s episode of Developer Tea.

[00:17:39] If you’d like to discuss this episode, or if you’d like to just chat, come and join

[00:17:44] us in the Developer Tea Discord community.

[00:17:45] That’s developertea.com slash Discord.

[00:17:48] That’s free.

[00:17:49] It always will be free.

[00:17:51] There’s tons of other community members in that Discord.

[00:17:55] Come and check it out, developertea.com slash Discord.

[00:17:57] I’m in there.

[00:17:58] You can send me a message, ask me a question, ask me for advice.

[00:18:01] I’m there to chat, as are other members of the community.

[00:18:05] Thanks so much for listening, and until next time, enjoy your tea.

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