Vox

Leitura de 52 min

The chaplain who doesn’t believe in God

Summary

Sean Illing interviews Devin Moss, a humanist (non-theist) chaplain. Moss explains his view of spirituality as a third component of human existence—distinct from the body and psyche—that connects us to each other and something beyond ourselves. He describes his clinical training at Bellevue Hospital during the pandemic, where he learned the essence of spiritual care by helping patients in moments of profound vulnerability, often through simple human connection and humor.

The core of the conversation revolves around Moss’s year-long relationship with Phil, a death row inmate in Oklahoma who specifically requested a non-theist spiritual advisor. Moss details their daily phone calls, the complex bond they formed, and Phil’s request that Moss “show me something real, tell me something true.” He reflects on the challenge of providing care without judgment, navigating Phil’s worldview that humanity is inherently corrupt, and attempting to demonstrate an alternative perspective grounded in compassion.

Moss recounts the day of Phil’s execution in vivid detail, describing the logistical failures, the tension, and his role in bringing calm to the execution chamber. He shares the non-theistic invocation he wrote and delivered, aiming to make the space sacred through an appeal to shared humanity, love, and grace. The experience solidified his opposition to the death penalty, highlighting its human cost on the corrections officers and others involved, and the contradiction of a religious state carrying out such acts.

The discussion broadens to explore the human need for religion or something like it. Moss argues for flipping the script: spirituality should be the primary expression, with religion as its possible manifestation. He and Illing critique both militant atheism that reduces religion to false claims and dogmatic religion that causes harm, agreeing that humans are storytelling creatures who seek connection and meaning. Moss emphasizes that dying well requires work done while alive, through intentional rituals and facing mortality, regardless of one’s belief in an afterlife.

Recommendations

Books

  • The Denial of Death by Ernest Becker — Mentioned as a foundational text explored in a previous episode of The Gray Area. Sheldon Solomon’s work proves out Becker’s theories on how the fear of death psychologically affects us.

People

  • Trudy Hirsch Abramson — A Zen Buddhist mentor who told Devin Moss ‘the question is what do you believe in,’ which set him on the path to becoming a chaplain.
  • Adam Luck — The former chair of the Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board, who told Moss that ‘everybody that has a hand in doing the execution… part of them dies in some way.’
  • Sheldon Solomon — A sociology professor who has researched Ernest Becker’s ‘Denial of Death.’ Moss references his idea that we need to face death long enough for it to ‘break our involuntary belief systems.‘

Podcasts

  • The Adventures of Memento Mori — Devin Moss’s own podcast, where he explores themes of death and meaning. It was during a mini-series for this show that he interviewed Trudy Hirsch Abramson.

Topic Timeline

  • 00:03:55 — Defining Humanist Chaplaincy and Spiritual Care — Devin Moss explains he is a humanist chaplain, which is non-theist. He defines spirituality as a third component of human existence—alongside body and psyche—that connects us to each other and something beyond ourselves. He describes spiritual care as tending to this aspect, especially during moments of acute crisis and vulnerability.
  • 00:06:20 — Chaplaincy Training at Bellevue Hospital During the Pandemic — Moss recounts his intense clinical pastoral education at Bellevue Hospital in New York during the COVID-19 pandemic. He shares his initial spiritual insecurity and how he learned by doing rounds, offering meditation, dad jokes, and simply listening. A pivotal moment was when a patient trusted him enough to share a deep fear about his family, teaching Moss that spiritual care is about being present to help someone feel and process emotions.
  • 00:11:52 — The Path to Death Row and Meeting Phil — Moss explains how a conversation with a Zen Buddhist mentor, Trudy Hirsch Abramson, who told him ‘the question is what do you believe in,’ set him on the path to chaplaincy. Later, he was contacted by attorneys for Phil Pancock, a death row inmate in Oklahoma who wanted a non-theist chaplain. Moss wrote to Phil, they connected, and began a year of near-daily conversations.
  • 00:16:05 — Phil’s Request: ‘Show Me Something Real, Tell Me Something True’ — After months of consuming daily calls, a frustrated Moss asked his mentor for advice and was told to simply ask Phil what he wanted. Phil responded by quoting his interpretation of a Shakespeare line: ‘Show me something real, tell me something true.’ This became Moss’s ‘north star’ and defined his role—to find the answer to that riddle for Phil.
  • 00:25:36 — Views on the Death Penalty and Its Human Cost — Moss discusses how his experience changed his ‘mushy’ opinions on capital punishment. He came to see the extensive ‘externalities’ and ‘karmic ripple’ it creates, affecting corrections officers, wardens, and entire communities. He cites a former pardon board chair who said ‘everybody that has a hand in doing the execution… part of them dies in some way,’ a statement Moss believes is absolutely true.
  • 00:28:46 — The Execution Day and Final Moments with Phil — Moss describes the surreal and fraught day of the execution, including delays and logistical failures. He details entering the chamber, seeing the nervousness of the masked corrections officer, and realizing part of his job was to bring calm. He delivered a written invocation he had prepared, calling on ‘the spirit of our humanity’ to make the space sacred for Phil, assuring him he was loved and not alone.
  • 00:41:51 — The Need for Religion or Spirituality — Illing asks if there’s a ‘God-shaped hole’ that needs filling, even without supernatural belief. Moss agrees, arguing spirituality is a human need, but it should not require dogma. He proposes flipping the relationship: spirituality is the primary, lived experience, and religion can be one expression of it. This allows for personal rituals and community connection without harmful dogma.
  • 00:48:38 — Dying Well with a Humanist Worldview — Moss addresses what solace a humanistic worldview can offer facing death. He argues dying well requires work done while alive, regardless of faith. He criticizes the cliché ‘there are no atheists in foxholes,’ stating many hold to their principles. The key is to ‘face [death] long enough where it can break our involuntary belief systems’ and live with more intention.

Episode Info

  • Podcast: The Gray Area with Sean Illing
  • Author: Vox
  • Category: Society & Culture Philosophy News Politics News Commentary
  • Published: 2024-03-25T09:30:00Z
  • Duration: 00:48:45

References

Podcast Info

Transcript

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[00:00:57] The changing face of ADHD.

[00:01:00] That’s this week on Explain It To Me.

[00:01:02] New episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:01:08] I’m often asked how I come up with ideas for the gray area.

[00:01:13] The easy answer is I have help.

[00:01:16] It’s a small team, just a couple of people, honestly.

[00:01:19] And we’re constantly looking around for topics.

[00:01:23] But beyond that, I don’t really have a process.

[00:01:27] I try to be as open as I can to whatever comes my way.

[00:01:31] Often it’s a compelling book,

[00:01:33] but some of my favorite episodes have come from chance conversations

[00:01:37] or a Twitter thread I stumbled across.

[00:01:41] And sometimes, on the best days,

[00:01:44] I encounter something that’s so exciting or profound

[00:01:48] or something that wrestles with questions I hadn’t even considered

[00:01:52] that I know almost instantly this has to be on the gray area.

[00:01:57] The most recent example of this is an article in the New York Times magazine

[00:02:05] from earlier this year called

[00:02:07] An Atheist Chaplain and a Death Row Inmate’s Final Hours.

[00:02:11] The death row inmate in that headline was a man named Phil,

[00:02:15] a convicted murderer who didn’t believe in God,

[00:02:19] but wanted a spiritual advisor with him as he approached his execution.

[00:02:24] And the atheist chaplain in that headline?

[00:02:26] He’s today.

[00:02:27] Today’s guest.

[00:02:33] I’m Sean Elling, and this is The Gray Area.

[00:02:48] Today’s guest is Devin Moss.

[00:02:51] He spent an entire year in daily conversation

[00:02:56] with a man named Phil,

[00:02:56] with a man on death row,

[00:02:58] through his final moments,

[00:03:01] helping him or trying to help him

[00:03:03] navigate the end of his life on his own terms,

[00:03:07] without God or religion.

[00:03:10] Devin’s also a fellow podcast host

[00:03:12] with a terrific show called

[00:03:14] The Adventures of Memento Mori.

[00:03:19] And of course, it was the whole atheist chaplain thing

[00:03:22] that got me interested.

[00:03:24] It’s a compelling headline for sure.

[00:03:26] But what really attracts me here are the deeper questions

[00:03:31] about what spiritual care looks like without religion,

[00:03:35] or why the religious instinct needs to be taken more seriously,

[00:03:39] whether you believe in God or not.

[00:03:42] Moss has spent an unusual amount of time

[00:03:45] thinking about these questions,

[00:03:46] and I wanted to talk openly with him about what he’s learned.

[00:03:55] Devin Moss, welcome to the show.

[00:03:56] Thanks for having me.

[00:03:59] I’m fairly confident that you’re the first atheist chaplain

[00:04:03] I’ve had on the show, so congrats.

[00:04:06] Thank you, thank you.

[00:04:08] I tend to go by humanist chaplain,

[00:04:11] which is non-theist,

[00:04:14] in the same way that a Buddhist is non-theist,

[00:04:16] like a Zen Buddhist in particular is non-theist.

[00:04:19] Atheist chaplain is more provocative,

[00:04:22] particularly for headlines.

[00:04:24] I feel like atheism also has a bit of a branding,

[00:04:26] problem too, so you can kind of circumnavigate that.

[00:04:29] Yeah, yeah, horrible branding.

[00:04:32] How do you describe the work that you do when people ask?

[00:04:36] I mean, humanist chaplain has to be

[00:04:37] a hell of a conversation starter, I imagine.

[00:04:41] Yeah, I mean, there’s always a fair amount of explaining to do,

[00:04:44] but it’s also, once you kind of get to it, it’s fairly easy.

[00:04:48] So it’s spiritual care.

[00:04:50] And again, I don’t believe in transcendence of spirit or soul.

[00:04:53] I don’t think that there’s a glowing part of our bodies

[00:04:56] that goes up into the sky once we die,

[00:04:58] but I do believe that there is a spirit

[00:05:01] in the sense of the third in the triumvirate

[00:05:05] of what makes us an embodied being, right?

[00:05:10] So there’s the body, the pneumatic presence,

[00:05:12] which, of course, a medical doctor is the one that provides care.

[00:05:15] In that sense, there is the psyche,

[00:05:18] which psychologists and therapists treat that.

[00:05:20] And then I would argue that there is a third thing

[00:05:23] that connects us to each other,

[00:05:26] and it connects us to something beyond ourselves.

[00:05:30] And that is how I look at this idea of spirit.

[00:05:33] And in those moments of crisis, that too, a lot of times,

[00:05:37] that needs the most care when people are in their most vulnerable state,

[00:05:43] oftentimes the most vulnerable state that they have experienced in their lives.

[00:05:49] How long have you been doing this kind of work?

[00:05:51] It’s been fairly recent.

[00:05:53] I kind of tripped my way into it.

[00:05:56] As a chaplain, you still have to go to seminary school,

[00:05:59] so you have to have your master’s in divinity or equivalent.

[00:06:03] I did that during the pandemic.

[00:06:05] And then we’re also required to go through what’s called CPE,

[00:06:10] which is clinical pastoral education.

[00:06:12] This is your clinical hours.

[00:06:15] And I did my first unit of CPE at Bellevue Hospital here in New York.

[00:06:20] What was that like doing a residency at a hospital

[00:06:24] during a once-in-a-divine?

[00:06:26] generation pandemic?

[00:06:29] It was intense.

[00:06:30] And talk about people in acute moments of crisis, Bellevue Hospital in particular.

[00:06:37] And I also cannot imagine a better place to learn what it means to be spiritual.

[00:06:44] Because I came into this incredibly insecure about spirituality in general,

[00:06:51] but also what I can provide to people for as spiritual care when

[00:06:56] I’m not, I’m a non-theist, right?

[00:06:58] How can someone, how can I, do this without God?

[00:07:02] And, you know, it was scary as hell and it was profound as hell at the same time.

[00:07:09] Were you a different person coming out of that?

[00:07:11] Absolutely.

[00:07:11] And even like, on a daily basis, my shift hours were from 2 to 8 or 9.

[00:07:18] And I would, at around about 1 o’clock, I’d be like, oh, I can’t believe I

[00:07:22] got to go back and do this today.

[00:07:24] And then when I would leave at night,

[00:07:25] I would do , uh, i am at 30.

[00:07:25] Okay.

[00:07:25] Uh, 1 p.m..

[00:07:26] i would be like wow i could never imagined that would happen today and i learned so much and i’m

[00:07:34] a different person leaving at night than i came in in the day and that was like a repetitive cycle

[00:07:39] over and over again what are you doing from two to eight there i mean are you literally going from

[00:07:45] room to room counseling people talking to people spending time with their them and their families

[00:07:49] what does it look like yeah so so unless someone calls specifically for a chaplain you just do

[00:07:57] rounds and go door to door and check in on people and so because i was afraid to pray because i was

[00:08:04] so spiritually insecure i’m like you know i’m happy to meditate with people i’ve had a a long

[00:08:09] meditation practice and so i would memorize a handful of dad jokes at just as as something to

[00:08:18] lean on because i do believe

[00:08:19] you

[00:08:19] that humor is also medicine and then so one of the first rooms that i went to was it was a double

[00:08:25] occupancy so there was two guys in there uh knocked on the door you know and it’s sort of

[00:08:31] like you had to feel out what your shtick is and and how you introduce yourself and so i knocked

[00:08:35] on the door and be like hi i’m chaplain devon your spiritual care advisor is there anything

[00:08:40] that i can offer you such as a meditation a dad joke prayer and first guy says no and then it

[00:08:49] goes back to this to the second bed by the window and and did the same thing and he was like no i

[00:08:54] don’t believe in god but my mom does and she would be very happy to know that you came and checked in

[00:09:01] on me and so that was kind of it and then i offered my joke du jour and he said yes and so i told him

[00:09:10] my joke i’m sorry i can’t resist what’s your best dad joke well the one i used then was um how come

[00:09:17] you never see elephants how come you never see elephants how come you never see elephants how come

[00:09:19] they’re hiding in trees you got me because they’re good at it it’s so terrible that this is this is

[00:09:26] the one that introduced the groan from the bed on the other side of the room which i take as a sign

[00:09:32] of approval and then i mic dropped and i left the room the next day i went back to the same room

[00:09:37] both guys were there and and kind of did the same thing and then we built a rapport for about at

[00:09:43] least a week and then i got to a point where i was looking forward to going into this room

[00:09:46] about 10 days into it

[00:09:49] i knocked on the door and then his roommate the guy closest to the door

[00:09:54] said hey mr johnson is looking forward to your visit today he wants to talk to you

[00:10:03] so i go back there and his wife is there again he asked his wife to leave

[00:10:09] and then he says i realized that i haven’t cried in a while and then he falls up he’s like

[00:10:19] you know my mom right i i don’t know his mom but but somehow in his sort of religious

[00:10:24] background and narrative his mom was very religious and he mentioned his mom to me a few

[00:10:30] times but so trust had been built in his head i knew his mom and how important religion was to

[00:10:36] his mom and he said i am afraid that if i die my mom will no longer talk to my wife and my son

[00:10:48] because of many reasons and he wasn’t afraid to die in that sense that’s not what he was

[00:10:55] expressing but he was afraid that if he did suddenly his wife and son and mother would no

[00:11:03] longer talk and there would be friction and so i i listened to him there and then he started to cry

[00:11:09] i cried with him i talked through how he can actually begin to have those conversations and

[00:11:16] set things up practically and that is when i learned what spiritual care was there’s a crossover

[00:11:24] between a therapist but i wasn’t there to analyze i wasn’t there to judge i was just there to help

[00:11:30] him cry the reason you and i are talking right now is because i i happened upon this article

[00:11:38] about your experience on death row i guess i’m curious how you found yourself there in the first

[00:11:44] place how does a

[00:11:45] you

[00:11:46] humanist chaplain from brooklyn end up on death row in oklahoma it all begins

[00:11:52] with a zen buddhist name trudy hirsch abramson i was doing the podcast and i was doing a just a

[00:12:00] mini series within that about the myths of immortality about spiritual beliefs in the

[00:12:04] afterlife and i was just interviewing trudy because she was sort of the subject matter

[00:12:10] expert on buddhism i drove up to zen mountain monastery in upstate new york outside of phoenicia

[00:12:16] and and it was as though i had known trudy all of my life we had a beautiful conversation and at

[00:12:24] the end of the conversation she says to me you would make a good chaplain and you know i sort

[00:12:31] of did a kickback reaction and was like uh can’t i don’t believe in god and then her response was

[00:12:37] i don’t believe in god either the question is what do you believe in that is what really

[00:12:45] started me to believe in god and i was like oh my god i don’t believe in god i don’t believe in god

[00:12:46] on the journey okay then then what what do i believe in because i certainly don’t want to

[00:12:51] go through life identifying my belief system by what i don’t believe in yeah so it’s what do i

[00:12:58] believe in how can i frame my life to actually index on the things that that resonate and that

[00:13:03] are true to me and in a typical zen buddhist voice she just said well just sit on that and

[00:13:11] let it stew and next thing you know i went to seminary school

[00:13:16] then how do you end up on death row in oklahoma so soon after i i finished my cpe at bellevue

[00:13:25] the american humanist association the endorsing body sent me an email saying that there are some

[00:13:32] attorneys that represent this man on death row named phil pancock in oklahoma that are looking

[00:13:37] for a non-theist chaplain because phil specifically wanted a non-theist chaplain would you be

[00:13:44] interested and my answer was i don’t believe in god i don’t believe in god i don’t believe in god

[00:13:46] i would absolutely be interested and on reflection to be candid i felt called to do that from a

[00:13:55] spiritual care perspective but i also was was very much intrigued by the story of it and so i wrote

[00:14:00] phil a letter introduced myself and left my phone number in it and said if you find that i am the

[00:14:06] right person to represent you or be by your side in such a important time i would love to do so and

[00:14:14] then we talked and we

[00:14:16] hit it off and and then we started a journey of almost a year what do you think he really

[00:14:24] wanted from you um someone to listen someone to comfort him or just company all the above i think

[00:14:30] there’s there’s a very practical logistical element too which is in an execution in every

[00:14:38] state by order of the supreme court uh protected by their constitutional rights is that the

[00:14:46] spiritual care advisor is the only one in their world is their their only ally that is allowed to

[00:14:53] be with them in the execution chamber so so he wanted an ally there with him and one that was

[00:15:00] not there just to save his soul and pray over him he definitely wanted someone to vent to

[00:15:07] to talk with he wanted someone to debate with and explore existentialism just explore religion

[00:15:16] he was incredibly smart and so he read the bible but he read it to have a counter argument for it

[00:15:23] about four months into it i was getting very frustrated with the calls we would talk every

[00:15:29] day and and it was every day for four months yeah i mean every day for essentially almost a year but

[00:15:35] that month four it started to become all-consuming for me so he would call like at nine in the

[00:15:41] morning 9 30 and so that’s how i would start my day and it’s a challenge then to

[00:15:46] to restart your day after those conversations right and so it was affecting me and this

[00:15:52] spiritual insecurity was coming up again like how am i helping this guy am i giving him what he needed

[00:15:57] and so i asked my mentor my zen buddhist mentor i’m like what do i do and chaplain trudy said just

[00:16:05] ask him what he wants from you and so i did and and he immediately quoted his interpretation of a

[00:16:16] shaman eight as he interpreted it to be show me something real tell me something true and that

[00:16:22] became my north star that was how i interpreted my role was to find the answer to that riddle

[00:16:31] i’m not sure how to ask this so i guess i’ll just ask did you like him i mean i i know what

[00:16:40] he’s accused of uh i know he claimed it was self-defense i don’t really know what happened

[00:16:46] obviously and it doesn’t matter in this conversation but i guess i just assume

[00:16:51] this is not someone maybe you’d normally go have a beer with you know what i mean

[00:16:56] but but part of being a chaplain is putting all of that aside because it’s not about you

[00:17:01] but i guess that’s also easier said than done yeah it was very complex and i would also add

[00:17:09] too is that because of the case was suspicious in the conviction

[00:17:16] but to answer your question i did like phil he was complex i was often very frustrated by phil as

[00:17:25] well sometimes i i was like i just can’t answer the phone today i just i just can’t talk to you

[00:17:30] today phil but i also think i got to know him in ways that other people weren’t able to and i think

[00:17:42] he knew it there was other volunteers there that were compassionate that showed up for him and were

[00:17:46] friends but they would advocate for him no matter what and my job wasn’t to advocate my job was to

[00:17:55] give him spiritual care and so i didn’t have to put blinders on for what he did or the potential

[00:18:02] for what he did you know he was many things he was a very caring person he did think of others a lot

[00:18:07] and he was also a very violent person it was reported that he said to you at one point

[00:18:13] you’re showing me something i haven’t seen from anyone

[00:18:16] i don’t recall anybody ever really coming through for me like this and there’s a lot going on there

[00:18:24] man in a sense that’s a beautiful thing to hear but for me it’s also devastatingly sad because

[00:18:33] you know here’s a guy who i imagine like a lot of people on death row or in prison never really

[00:18:39] had a shot if you followed his life circumstances back far enough you’ll learn that he was a guy who

[00:18:46] he was probably screwed by the world and the people around him from the very beginning

[00:18:51] the very beginning that’s a true statement that you just made and he made a lot of bad bad decisions

[00:18:59] but you’re right just think about that like knowing that nobody in your entire life

[00:19:07] has ever showed up for you in any way from parents expanding outward into the into the world and so

[00:19:16] and that also snowballs as you go through life and then that becomes your perception and that

[00:19:24] becomes that that becomes the world and i also think this is this is a a good point to underscore

[00:19:30] at least maybe deviate from this idea of phil and i both being atheists right we both by the

[00:19:36] definition of the word atheist but our non-belief isn’t the thing that was the binding tissue of our

[00:19:43] relationship it was humanity his non-belief is the thing that was the binding tissue of our

[00:19:46] relationship it was humanity his perspective of the world or of humanity is that it was inherently

[00:19:52] corrupt and vile and humans are when given a choice so say we agree that that when we’re born

[00:20:04] like there’s no intrinsic meaning in life and we have to create that meaning for ourselves

[00:20:09] he says humans then tend to be self-serving violent

[00:20:16] and essentially evil and listen you don’t have to go far to find evidence of that um where i came in

[00:20:25] my perspective is yes okay so i i am with you that there’s no intrinsic meaning in life so that means

[00:20:31] that we make the choice and we are then compelled to make the choice of being compassionate showing

[00:20:40] up for people doing and being better than what’s best for us

[00:20:46] that was the push and pull of like i’m just trying to be in my own way in our own relationship

[00:20:52] just to be a little gravitational force for phil to demonstrate that his perspective

[00:20:59] wasn’t the only way it could have been or the way it actually was in that moment

[00:21:04] after a short break we’ll hear about devon’s experience on execution day stay with us

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[00:25:19] did you have strong feelings about the death penalty before you went to oklahoma

[00:25:36] did the experience change your views one way or the other i did not have strong opinions i did have

[00:25:46] opinions that were i would say a bit mushy and i will describe it as as this if there was a chance

[00:25:55] for anybody innocent to be executed then then i’m not for it and yet knowing that there are

[00:26:02] monsters among us and i had used the same scenario that then i then heard throughout oklahoma this is

[00:26:10] the scenario that everybody that is pro capital punishment will use if it was your daughter it’s

[00:26:16] always the daughter no one says if it were your son if it were your daughter and she was murdered

[00:26:23] and raped that should be the litmus test of of how we think of capital punishment that’s the argument

[00:26:31] that the state legislators in oklahoma use and and even like i don’t know where i got that but

[00:26:36] that was kind of also in my head prior to working with phil is is that if someone admitted to it

[00:26:42] and it was such a heinous

[00:26:45] violent

[00:26:46] violence

[00:26:46] violence

[00:26:46] crime then yeah i would be okay with capital punishment that’s that’s how i came into it and

[00:26:52] that’s okay and those are like those are real feelings if a parent had to go through that

[00:26:58] horrible horrible scenario they have every right to feel that and i’m not advocating that that

[00:27:04] anybody can’t feel those very strong and real emotions but what i didn’t realize until i was

[00:27:10] actually in the soup is that there are a lot of externalities the ripples

[00:27:16] of who it affects they’re significant and so if we just think that the legislators make the laws

[00:27:23] the judicial branch of the state does the sentencing but guess who does the executions

[00:27:30] none of them are doing the executions none of the the family of the victims are doing the executions

[00:27:35] it is people it is people like me it is people the corrections officers in the small towns where

[00:27:42] this is more than likely the only employment opportunity for them to do the executions and so

[00:27:46] i think that’s the only opportunity they have and we’re the ones that are doing this and and i i

[00:27:51] spoke with a man named adam luck who was the former chair of the clemency board the pardon

[00:27:57] parole board before the execution he said everybody that has a hand in doing the execution

[00:28:04] itself part of them dies in some way although that sounds like a dramatic statement i don’t

[00:28:11] think it is it is absolutely 100 true the warden

[00:28:16] isn’t for it the corrections officers aren’t for it and so with all of the externalities in all

[00:28:22] the pain it creates a karmic ripple that is multi-lives and multi-generational i hope you’re

[00:28:32] comfortable talking about it um but i do want to ask because this is real life and you were by his

[00:28:39] side when he died and i assume the last words he heard from another person were yours

[00:28:46] what did you say i mean i can imagine walking into that situation with the plan and then

[00:28:52] completely abandoning that plan in the moment because the gravity of it because it’s not what

[00:29:01] you expected the whole thing was surreal the whole thing being the the moments of that day

[00:29:06] and even the morning of the governor still hadn’t made a decision whether to grant clemency the

[00:29:11] execution was scheduled for 10 a.m so it was postponed an hour and a half to the day before the

[00:29:16] death of phil so phil is strapped to the gurney for an extra hour plus which is horrible to think

[00:29:23] about the night before they messed up his last meal i mean i can’t even express even to this day

[00:29:31] like how angry that makes me and i can’t imagine again what it does to the spirit of someone that

[00:29:37] just cannot get any demonstration of humanity on any level and also sort of the last

[00:29:46] one of the frustrations is that the spiritual care advisor generally gets 45 to 30 minutes

[00:29:51] with the person that’s going to be executed because the governor had delayed the press

[00:29:57] corps had already made it through security and so there’s a lot of like maintain your poise

[00:30:04] maintain your poise maintain your poise because the chances of getting frazzled were high and

[00:30:10] extreme and we went through this maze the head chaplain then left me in this sally

[00:30:16] court where then the corrections officers escorted me up to the front door of the execution chamber

[00:30:22] and it was there that the masked corrections officer who would be in the room with us

[00:30:27] greeted me because the corrections officers that are in the room need to be anonymous

[00:30:31] and then i could see in his face that he was nervous and that he was scared and that he was

[00:30:38] also affected by this moment and so it was kind of in that moment that i realized that part of my

[00:30:45] role

[00:30:46] is just to bring as much calmness and peace into that space as I possibly could.

[00:30:54] And that morning I had written an invocation, a prayer of sorts that I knew that needed to be

[00:31:01] said. And I did it immediately because I wanted to claim that space for Phil so that we could

[00:31:07] make it sacred and not let any time go by without making sure that he felt that this was his time.

[00:31:16] Do you remember the prayer? It’s okay if you don’t, but I just want to ask.

[00:31:20] Yeah. When I originally wrote it, I wrote it, call into the space, the spirit of the divine.

[00:31:27] And then I crossed that out. And instead I just wrote, I called in the space, the spirit of our

[00:31:33] humanity, because it was very clear to me in those moments that this was a human problem

[00:31:37] and not a theological issue. All too human.

[00:31:42] All too human. I had the answer to the

[00:31:46] Philippian’s riddle, show me something real, tell me something true. I seeded that within the

[00:31:54] prayer. I wanted him to know that he was loved, and that I was a conduit to that love and that

[00:32:02] he was not alone. And then I also invoked the spirit of grace, of strength, of surrender.

[00:32:14] And interestingly, I ended

[00:32:16] it with, I’m going to pray for my life, but I’m going to pray for my life.

[00:32:16] I’m going to pray for my life.

[00:32:16] it with with an amen just because it felt right and i also understood too that there were other

[00:32:20] people in that room besides phil and i that i think needed to hear these words and so i claimed

[00:32:26] that space for him and then i followed it up with telling him how our relationship affected me and

[00:32:34] what it meant to me and that he is a loved human he died well with grace

[00:32:48] i also did my job well and made sure that he knew that he was loved and he was not alone

[00:33:01] and so in this weird

[00:33:04] moment of an execution which is weird to say that

[00:33:10] there was peace he transitioned well i really commend you for doing that that’s an awesome

[00:33:21] responsibility to be there in that way in that moment for someone and i just have all the respect

[00:33:27] in the world for that thank you thank you i know you told the the reporter from the new york times

[00:33:34] that you’re

[00:33:34] your thoughts to yourself as you were driving away from the prison that day where

[00:33:40] god has nothing to do with this and you’re goddamn right about that um there’s no spark of divinity

[00:33:52] and capital punishment pumping poison into people’s veins to kill them is a

[00:33:58] a uh a thoroughly human institution and god has nothing to do with it

[00:34:04] and i would also add to that in a state like oklahoma who is very religious

[00:34:12] the governor governor stitt has reclaimed this the state of oklahoma for jesus

[00:34:19] no matter what you believe why would you not demonstrate the best of your

[00:34:28] faith the best of your humanity it just strikes me as so anti-religious

[00:34:34] under the brand under the flag of religion and i can’t square that and we’ll never be able to

[00:34:40] after one more short break devin and i talk about whether we need

[00:34:49] religion or something like religion stay with us

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[00:39:01] Born in Idaho.

[00:39:03] When I was about five, we joined an Assemblies of God church, which is Pentecostal.

[00:39:08] That’s hardcore.

[00:39:09] That’s like snakes and tongues, right?

[00:39:11] Yeah.

[00:39:12] And this is during the 1980s when they thought the rapture was imminent too.

[00:39:16] There’s like a rapture cycle with the Pentecostals.

[00:39:20] You know, as a five-year-old, every time I would see a cloud formation with a big hole

[00:39:25] in the middle, I’d be like, oh, today’s the day.

[00:39:28] I’m not ready.

[00:39:29] Really, when did you realize, I think I’m an atheist or a humanist or whatever, whatever

[00:39:35] language you used at the time?

[00:39:37] Yeah.

[00:39:37] You know, it’s funny because I was always skeptical, or at least I was always curious.

[00:39:42] You know, one of the Sunday school stories that I remember being just very head-scratching

[00:39:49] to me was the story of Jonah and the whale.

[00:39:52] And the way we were taught at the time too, it was very literal.

[00:39:56] Any metaphor or symbology or underlying message.

[00:39:59] It was completely skipped over for the literal version of the story.

[00:40:05] And so I just remember raising my hand, being like, so wait, so he lived in the belly of

[00:40:12] the whale?

[00:40:13] Like, how is that possible?

[00:40:15] And of course, the answer is always miracle.

[00:40:18] And so it just, it always kind of left my eyes squinting, being like that, I don’t know

[00:40:25] about that.

[00:40:26] And then when my parents divorced.

[00:40:29] When I was 11, we stopped going to church altogether.

[00:40:32] It was very extreme to nothing at all.

[00:40:36] And so I always, I always had a little bit of a spiritual search in me, right?

[00:40:42] I always liked the idea or like want to believe that there is something bigger beyond our

[00:40:50] humanhood.

[00:40:51] And I became Catholic for a short bit until that same skepticism was like, then I tried

[00:40:58] Southern Baptist.

[00:40:59] And once I was through with that, I think I stopped looking.

[00:41:04] And in my family too, saying atheist was a wicked word.

[00:41:07] It was tantamount to Satanist.

[00:41:10] It was, you sacrifice puppies at night as an atheist.

[00:41:14] And so it was something that you just, you couldn’t ever say that you were that.

[00:41:18] And so you just kind of say agnostic, shrug your shoulders and just not talk about it.

[00:41:23] And so that was kind of me through my twenties and, and essentially the majority of my life.

[00:41:28] And so I was like, I’m going to go to church.

[00:41:29] I just, if anybody wanted to ask, I would say agnostic.

[00:41:34] And it wasn’t until I started exploring how death affects life that I began to really

[00:41:40] understand how that, how that influenced my spirituality.

[00:41:44] Part of what interests me about your story, the story and what you do is this question

[00:41:51] about whether we need religion or, or something like religion.

[00:41:56] I mean, the fact that you felt called to do.

[00:41:59] The work that you do speaks to this.

[00:42:02] I mean, do you feel like there’s a God shaped hole in the modern world that needs to be

[00:42:08] filled by something, even if that’s something isn’t supernaturalism or religion in a conventional

[00:42:13] sense?

[00:42:14] I do believe that.

[00:42:15] I do believe that, that there is a God shaped hole in all of us.

[00:42:19] And I do not feel compelled that it needs to be filled with dogma.

[00:42:25] The question that I get asked a lot in this regard too, is like, and then how do you feel

[00:42:28] and how do you prepare someone who’s dying, who doesn’t believe that there’s something

[00:42:33] next?

[00:42:34] The answer is in the reframing of the question is that if there is, and if that’s what you

[00:42:40] believe, fine.

[00:42:41] And if we are wrong, then great.

[00:42:43] But what’s more important is everything that you’re doing before that moment.

[00:42:50] It is in that moment.

[00:42:52] That’s the most important, not after.

[00:42:55] What happens after is after.

[00:42:56] It’s in that transition that is.

[00:42:58] That is important.

[00:43:00] And how you get there is micro steps tracing back throughout your life.

[00:43:08] And so do we need spirituality as an individual?

[00:43:12] Yes.

[00:43:13] And I would also say as a culture, there is a, whether it’s collective consciousness

[00:43:19] or a resonance that connects us to each other and connects us out to something bigger.

[00:43:25] And I think we need to, we need to make sure that those,

[00:43:28] those connecting points are connected.

[00:43:32] I’ve really come to be annoyed with a certain kind of atheist that can only approach religion

[00:43:39] as a set of epistemological claims, as though, you know, scanning the Bible for bogus claims

[00:43:48] about biology or history will amount to some kind of death blow for religion.

[00:43:55] And I understand where that comes from.

[00:43:57] I mean, this has always been tricky for me.

[00:43:58] Because I do think religion has done immense damage in the world.

[00:44:04] I think it has caused a lot of needless suffering in the world.

[00:44:08] I think it still causes a lot of needless suffering in the world.

[00:44:12] I mean, as we speak in our country, there are people who want to create a theocracy here,

[00:44:19] who want to chain women to their reproductive cycles because of their religious beliefs.

[00:44:27] And those people.

[00:44:28] And those people are enemies of liberal democracy, in my opinion.

[00:44:31] And yet also, religion, at its best, is a near universal expression of this human need for connection and meaning.

[00:44:41] Yeah.

[00:44:41] I see spirituality and theology as two completely different animals.

[00:44:49] Yeah.

[00:44:49] And the way, the way I think about religion is, it is as an expression of the spiritualities.

[00:44:58] Because the way it works now is that spirituality is an expression of religion.

[00:45:02] I say, flip it.

[00:45:05] I am a huge proponent on rites of passage rituals.

[00:45:10] I’m a huge proponent of even making rituals throughout your day.

[00:45:15] And you can develop for yourself, you can be as syncretic as you need to be, just to

[00:45:21] make sure that it is bringing intention to attention throughout your day.

[00:45:27] And so the expression of spirituality can be your lived religion, and we can get a sort

[00:45:33] of a cohort community.

[00:45:35] We can get enough semblance of commonality of what that looks like.

[00:45:40] Even if it’s like Sunday mornings, we’re going to sweep up the sidewalks in Brooklyn and

[00:45:48] have coffee and cake, that is an important spiritual expression and can be considered

[00:45:56] religion.

[00:45:57] But it’s also about the pomp and the history and all of those things, as you pointed out,

[00:46:01] Sean, that have proved over the centuries time and time again to be more harmful than

[00:46:07] good.

[00:46:08] Yeah.

[00:46:09] And I just don’t think truth is the primary concern of most human beings.

[00:46:14] Not when you really drill down.

[00:46:15] I think that we are storytelling creatures before we are rational creatures.

[00:46:21] And the stories that organize and shape our lives.

[00:46:25] Yeah.

[00:46:26] And don’t have such power over us because they are empirically true.

[00:46:31] They’re powerful because of the effects of believing in them, and the solace they provide,

[00:46:36] the connection they provide, the meaning they provide.

[00:46:39] That is real and true, even if the beliefs themselves aren’t.

[00:46:44] And I guess that kind of sounds like apologetics for faith, and maybe it is in some way, but

[00:46:50] I still think it’s right.

[00:46:52] And I suspect maybe you do too, or…

[00:46:54] I do.

[00:46:55] it’s important that we understand mythology and our predilection for stories and understand that

[00:47:03] they are stories but they are but they are guiding stories as well and so i’m with you

[00:47:11] it’s not a position that is also an absolute in my opinion i think you need to hold the steering

[00:47:17] wheel fairly loosely and i am a firm believer in the scientific method i am love reason

[00:47:23] definitely love proof in the right circumstances and the right arguments and i think there is

[00:47:30] a understanding in a time when we’re sort of crossing the ontologies right we’re crossing

[00:47:36] the ways of the areas i equally get annoyed when new age spirituality folks bring in physics

[00:47:44] yeah me too can’t stand it stop crossing the streams these are two different modes of of

[00:47:49] thinking both are equally important but we need to understand when we’re in them

[00:47:53] which one we’re operating in and spirituality also is not something that’s inherited and part of it

[00:48:01] is that it must be a journey it is provisional the more you learn the more you feel the more

[00:48:09] than it it develops i heard you mention in one of your podcasts that people who really have faith

[00:48:16] die better it’s not hard to understand why that may be the case you know the comfort that

[00:48:23] that must come with the belief in the afterlife or something like that it may not be an equivalent

[00:48:31] solace but what kind of solace can a more humanistic worldview offer to someone as they

[00:48:38] approach the end death is hard for everybody and it is hard because we avoid it personally and we

[00:48:46] and we most definitely avoid it as a culture how a culture dies is a direct reflection of how they

[00:48:53] die and we do not die well in modern america and so i would probably take out the border of

[00:49:01] faith and non-faith when it comes to how to die well i i would just say that dying well requires

[00:49:13] work that is to be done while you’re still very much alive with or without a faith in a supernatural

[00:49:22] power

[00:49:23] i’ve always hated that that line you know um there are no atheists in foxholes

[00:49:29] i mean yeah i i get the point um and i guess there’s some truth in that but also there are

[00:49:36] actually atheists in foxholes and there are countless examples of people who hold fast to

[00:49:41] their principles when facing death you know who don’t sacrifice their intellectual integrity

[00:49:46] out of fear at the end and what sort of god puts you in a foxhole trying to avoid bullets and being

[00:49:53] killed by somebody else anyway who’s in a foxhole that says this is the divine will yeah i think

[00:50:00] there’s plenty of atheists and there’s far too many foxholes you know i heard you ask in one of

[00:50:05] your podcasts like what would it mean to live as though we’re not entitled to time i think most of

[00:50:11] us myself included do live as though we have infinite time and we’ll probably regret that

[00:50:17] at the end but i don’t know what it would mean if we always lived as though

[00:50:23] the lights could go out in 10 minutes you know that it’s hard to do you know it’s it’s it’s so

[00:50:29] hard to do and it’s a muscle that we have to exercise and that’s what i think this idea of

[00:50:34] a lived religion that’s an expression of your spirituality comes in and even if it’s a

[00:50:38] recognition when you first wake up in the morning even if it’s a meditation you do before you go to

[00:50:44] bed we would not be advanced as we were if all we did all day was live in the now and not see

[00:50:53] 20 years from now sheldon solomon says it so well he’s a sociology professor that has proved out

[00:51:02] ernest becker’s denial of death and how it affects us psychologically the way he says it is that we

[00:51:08] just need to face it long enough where it can break our involuntary belief systems

[00:51:17] our last episode was about ernest becker’s the denial of death i i don’t know if i’m

[00:51:23] going to be able to do that but i’m going to be able to do it i’m going to be able to do it

[00:51:23] through some kind of midlife crisis and i’m working the shit out here

[00:51:26] on the show it just it just kind of went down this way i don’t know what do you think happens

[00:51:34] when we die devin i assume you must have thought about that being around death so much yeah my

[00:51:41] answer is simple we die it goes just as black as it did before we were born and then i you know i

[00:51:47] twist the question to be like what’s important is what happens while we live

[00:51:53] why do we need an afterlife well it’s so it can manage the terror of there being nothing which is

[00:52:01] terrifying why do we need a transcendent soul when the raccoon in my backyard isn’t worthy of one

[00:52:09] it makes us different because we realize we are conscious and and someday we’ll be unconscious

[00:52:15] death is something we all do alone but dying dying doesn’t have to be a solo activity and

[00:52:23] i’m glad there are people who do what you do who make sure that people don’t have to die

[00:52:28] alone well thank you thank you

[00:52:31] devin moss is a chaplain and host of the podcast the adventures of memento mori

[00:52:50] so

[00:52:51] damn this was a pretty heavy one

[00:52:53] but it was personal and raw and i really did get a lot out of it and yeah i don’t know what to say

[00:53:00] other than i hope it was valuable to you and if you have any thoughts about any other things i

[00:53:06] should have said or did say or you wish i said drop me a line at the gray area at vox.com and

[00:53:13] tell me i read all the emails i promise

[00:53:15] this episode was produced by john aarons edited by john aarons and i’m so grateful to have you

[00:53:23] watching this episode of the gray area drop

[00:53:25] engineered by patrick boyd and alex overington wrote our theme music

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