Why are so many smart people unhappy at work? W/Christopher Avery

Summary

Christopher Avery, the ‘Responsibility Process Guy,’ joins host Brad Stokes to explore why intelligent, capable people often feel unhappy and stuck at work. Avery introduces his decades-long research into the psychology of cause and effect, culminating in the Responsibility Process model. This framework outlines the unconscious mental states we default to when things go wrong: Lay Blame, Justify, Shame, and Obligation. True Responsibility, he argues, is a higher mental state of ownership and choice that is always available but requires deliberate practice to access.

Avery details each stage of the process, explaining how even highly educated and experienced individuals can get trapped in cycles of blame (assigning cause externally) or obligation (feeling burdened and trapped). He distinguishes Responsibility from the societal definitions often conflated with shame and obligation, emphasizing that Responsibility is a liberating mental state of empowerment, not a character trait or burden. The key is recognizing these mental states in oneself and choosing to move upward.

The conversation shifts to practical application. Avery introduces the ‘three keys to responsibility’: Intention (the ‘winning key’), Awareness (the ‘change key’), and Confront (the ‘growth key’). He illustrates this with the ‘Catch Sooner Game,’ a method for changing habits by catching undesired behavior, switching to the desired action, forgiving oneself, and vowing to catch it earlier next time. Brad shares a personal weight loss story that mirrors this non-punitive, self-compassionate approach.

Finally, they discuss scaling the Responsibility Process within teams and organizations. Avery warns against the common trap of applying the model to others before mastering it oneself. Real change starts with individual practice. He suggests that leaders wanting to foster a responsible culture must begin their own transformation first, as mandating change from the top often backfires. The episode concludes with Avery sharing updates on his company’s rebranding to The Responsibility Company and the launch of a new distance learning product, Responsibility Immersion.

Recommendations

Books

The Responsibility Process (book) — Christopher Avery mentions his book, specifically referencing Chapter 7 which contains the ‘Catch Sooner Game’ for habit change.

Programs

Responsibility Immersion — A new distance learning product launching soon, described as the new entry point for Avery’s work and a prerequisite for the ‘Leadership Gift Program.’
The Leadership Gift Program — Avery’s flagship 10-year-old program that is closing to new members; future access will be through the Responsibility Immersion course.

Websites

Responsibility.com — Avery’s newly acquired website where listeners can find information on the Responsibility Process, download posters, and learn about the new ‘Responsibility Immersion’ distance learning product.
ChristopherAvery.com — Another point of contact for Christopher Avery’s work and resources.

Topic Timeline

00:01:30 — Introduction to Christopher Avery and the Responsibility Process — Christopher Avery introduces himself and his 30-year fascination with the psychology of cause and effect. He explains the core premise of his work: whether life happens to us or we create it. This inquiry led to the development of the Responsibility Process, a pattern for processing thoughts about taking and avoiding ownership. He states its value for anyone wanting a happier, more free, and effective life.
00:03:35 — Explaining the Responsibility Process Model — Avery describes the Responsibility Process as a stack of mental states: Lay Blame, Justify, Shame, Obligation, and finally Responsibility. He explains that when something goes wrong, our mind automatically serves up blame (‘Who did this to me?’). If we recognize and let go of that mental state, we ‘graduate’ upward. Each state (Justify, Shame, Obligation) has its own logic, but only Responsibility offers true freedom, creativity, and access to our full reasoning abilities.
00:11:52 — Distinguishing Responsibility from Shame and Obligation — Brad and Christopher discuss how society often conflates responsibility with shame (self-blame) and obligation (feeling trapped). Avery clarifies that true Responsibility is a mental state of choice and ownership, distinct from the burdened feeling of obligation. He argues that from a young age, people are reinforced for shame (‘taking responsibility’ for a mistake often means self-punishment) and obligation (‘following through’ on despised tasks).
00:16:31 — How to Move from Reactivity to Choice — Brad asks how one moves from the knee-jerk, reactive states (like blame) to a state of choice and responsibility. Avery explains it requires a practice built on the three keys: Intention, Awareness, and Confront. He compares it to a stretching practice for the mind. One must develop a powerful intention to take responsibility, acute awareness of one’s mental states, and the willingness to confront gaps between current reality and desired outcomes.
00:22:15 — The Catch Sooner Game for Habit Change — Avery introduces the ‘Catch Sooner Game’ as a practical method for change. Instead of punishing failure, you catch yourself engaging in an unwanted behavior, stop immediately, switch to the desired behavior, forgive yourself for being human, and vow to catch yourself earlier in the pattern next time. Brad relates this to his own successful weight loss journey, where forgiving himself for slip-ups was key, aligning with Avery’s emphasis on self-compassion over punishment.
00:30:02 — Discipline, Intention, and Letting Go of Right/Wrong — The discussion explores the concept of discipline, distinguishing between discipline as obligation (‘I must’) and discipline as healthy, intentional habits. Avery suggests that a major part of the practice is letting go of the constructs of ‘right’ and ‘wrong,’ replacing them with ‘works for me’ and ‘doesn’t work for me.’ This shift from judgment to personal perspective reduces the mind’s tendency to be hijacked by anxiety when things go ‘wrong.’
00:41:44 — Applying the Responsibility Process in Teams and Organizations — Brad asks how the Responsibility Process translates to group settings. Avery strongly advises against trying to get others to adopt it before developing personal proficiency. Change starts with the individual asking, ‘How did I create, choose, and attract this situation?’ He shares a cautionary tale of executives wanting to ‘fix’ their teams without changing themselves. For teams, he suggests starting by sharing the model vulnerably and making agreements to support each other in climbing back to responsibility.
00:53:28 — Closing Remarks and Christopher Avery’s Updates — Christopher Avery shares updates on his work following a period of illness. His company has been rebranded as The Responsibility Company, and they have acquired the domain Responsibility.com. He announces the upcoming launch of a new distance learning product called ‘Responsibility Immersion,’ which will be the entry point for his flagship ‘Leadership Gift Program.’ He invites listeners to visit the website to learn more and get on the announcement list.

Episode Info

Podcast: Agile Uprising Podcast
Author: AgileUprising
Category: Technology Society & Culture
Published: 2024-08-26T03:24:00Z
Duration: 01:02:23

References

URL PocketCasts: https://pocketcasts.com/podcast/agile-uprising-podcast/7cf908d0-71c8-0134-78b4-4ffec63d9550/why-are-so-many-smart-people-unhappy-at-work-wchristopher-avery/4556a7eb-dd24-4b06-8db2-5c335f998827
Episode UUID: 4556a7eb-dd24-4b06-8db2-5c335f998827

Podcast Info

Name: Agile Uprising Podcast
Type: episodic
Site: http://www.agileuprising.com/
UUID: 7cf908d0-71c8-0134-78b4-4ffec63d9550

Transcript

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[00:01:01] Hello, this is Christopher Avery, the Responsibility Process Guy, and you’re listening to the Agile Uprising Podcast.

[00:01:21] Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Agile Uprising Podcast.

[00:01:25] Hello.

[00:01:25] Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Agile Uprising Podcast.

[00:01:26] Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Agile Uprising Podcast.

[00:01:26] I’m Brad Stokes, and with me today is Christopher Avery, the Responsibility Guy.

[00:01:30] Christopher, how about you tell us a bit about yourself?

[00:01:33] Well, thank you, Brad. I’m thrilled to be here on the Agile Uprising Podcast.

[00:01:38] Wow, a bit about myself.

[00:01:40] So, I’ve been fascinated for close to 30 years with the psychology of cause and effect.

[00:01:48] In other words, whether life is happening to us or whether we are creating it,

[00:01:55] all, even the stuff that we don’t like, and the way our thoughts about that are processed

[00:02:02] in our minds, and that has produced a pattern that’s now pretty well known around the world

[00:02:14] in many circles called the responsibility process.

[00:02:17] The responsibility process is a pattern that we use for processing thoughts about taking

[00:02:22] and avoiding ownership.

[00:02:24] The link…

[00:02:25] The link to cause and effect is that we tend to like owning that stuff that we think we

[00:02:32] caused intentionally and is good.

[00:02:37] We tend to not like to take ownership of stuff that we don’t like, and we tend not to think

[00:02:42] that we caused it.

[00:02:43] We tend to think that it was caused out there, somehow, somewhere.

[00:02:49] And so, this is valuable information, number one, in my own life, regardless of whether

[00:02:54] anybody else cares about it.

[00:02:55] And so, I’ve been pursuing it as my own practice, my own study, my own mastery, my own journey.

[00:03:04] But it’s exceptionally powerful for anybody who wants to live a happier life, who wants

[00:03:11] to be more free emotionally, who wants to experience the power of real choices in every

[00:03:19] situation, and who wants to be more productive and more effective, and perhaps more valuable

[00:03:25] in life.

[00:03:27] So that’s who I am.

[00:03:29] That’s pretty fun.

[00:03:31] Now, we said that you’re the responsibility process guy.

[00:03:35] For our listeners who don’t know what the responsibility process is, what is the responsibility

[00:03:39] process?

[00:03:40] Good.

[00:03:41] Let’s start there, Brad.

[00:03:42] Thank you.

[00:03:43] So, imagine a stack of words.

[00:03:45] And maybe even if you’re listening to this, you could do a quick search on just responsibility

[00:03:55] process.

[00:03:55] or even responsibility process, and my name is Avery.

[00:03:59] And it’s a stack of words starting at the bottom,

[00:04:01] so you’re going to ascend through this stack.

[00:04:04] And at the bottom, the word or phrase, short phrase,

[00:04:07] lay blame, and above it, the phrase justify,

[00:04:12] and above it, the word shame, and above it, the word obligation,

[00:04:16] and then a line above obligation, and then above it, the word responsibility.

[00:04:20] And it seems like a very, very simple poster.

[00:04:27] And what it says is that every time something goes wrong,

[00:04:33] every time you’re getting a result that’s different than you want,

[00:04:37] even if it’s just tripping over a crack in the sidewalk

[00:04:39] so that you feel a little embarrassed,

[00:04:42] every time something goes wrong,

[00:04:45] it produces a little bit of angst or anxiety inside of us,

[00:04:49] a little bit of frustration,

[00:04:50] a little bit of frustration,

[00:04:50] a little bit of upset.

[00:04:52] And we can talk about the very precise psychology of how that happens,

[00:04:57] but we can come back to that, Brad.

[00:04:59] So every time that happens,

[00:05:02] then our mind tries to help us cope with this anxious feeling,

[00:05:06] and it serves up an auto-response answer for us

[00:05:10] that starts at the bottom of the chart.

[00:05:13] It starts in blame.

[00:05:14] So our first response when something goes wrong

[00:05:17] is internally and unconsciously asking the question,

[00:05:20] who did this to me?

[00:05:22] Who caused this?

[00:05:24] Who caused this to happen?

[00:05:26] Who made this crummy coffee?

[00:05:28] Who put that spotlight, that stoplight there?

[00:05:31] Who built the crack in the sidewalk this way?

[00:05:34] You know, who thought it was a good idea to create this rule?

[00:05:39] So every time that we’re a little unhappier or upset,

[00:05:44] our minds try to help us cope by assigning cause outside of us

[00:05:49] and, you know,

[00:05:50] allowing us to believe that we know better

[00:05:54] and that we’re a victim of somebody’s stupidity, et cetera.

[00:05:59] So this is just a mental state.

[00:06:01] So lay blame, we call a mental state.

[00:06:06] It’s a coping state,

[00:06:08] and it has its own cause-effect logic in it.

[00:06:12] And the cause-effect logic is very simple.

[00:06:15] I’m in the position of effect.

[00:06:17] This is happening to me.

[00:06:19] And cause is out.

[00:06:20] And cause is outside of me.

[00:06:22] Therefore, for my life to change, for my anxiety to go away,

[00:06:25] for me to be happy,

[00:06:27] then somebody else has to change.

[00:06:30] And so that’s the premise.

[00:06:32] That’s the assumption.

[00:06:33] And all of these steps, Brad,

[00:06:36] it doesn’t matter how smart we are,

[00:06:38] how educated we are,

[00:06:40] how much authority we have,

[00:06:42] or how much experience we have,

[00:06:43] or even how ambitious or motivated we are.

[00:06:46] We are all susceptible to these.

[00:06:50] And since it’s a mental state,

[00:06:52] if we buy the answer our mind hands us,

[00:06:55] then we stay in the mental state,

[00:06:57] we stay with that logic box of cause and effect,

[00:07:00] and then we use our brilliance and our smarts

[00:07:03] and our persuasion to try and prove that other people need to change.

[00:07:08] Or we can simply recognize that we’re in blame,

[00:07:12] that it’s just a mental state,

[00:07:14] and now that we recognize it,

[00:07:16] it’s a choice as to whether or not we stay there,

[00:07:18] and we can choose to get off of it.

[00:07:20] And if we let go of blame,

[00:07:23] then we graduate up.

[00:07:25] And graduating up means we graduate to justify.

[00:07:28] And we can spend more time talking about what justify is.

[00:07:32] So same thing in justify.

[00:07:34] We can either buy into it,

[00:07:36] or we can see it for what it is.

[00:07:38] And if we choose to not stay in the mental state of justify,

[00:07:43] we graduate up to shame.

[00:07:45] Shame is just lay blame on self.

[00:07:48] Instead of blaming outward,

[00:07:49] we’re blaming inward,

[00:07:50] but we still think there’s something wrong,

[00:07:52] that it’s stupid,

[00:07:54] and therefore shame is full of self-punishment and self-loathing.

[00:08:01] And if we identify that for what it is

[00:08:05] and realize it’s just a choice to stay there,

[00:08:07] then we can move to obligation.

[00:08:09] And obligation is a mental state of feeling burdened or trapped

[00:08:13] in a process, a flow, a commitment, a promise,

[00:08:18] that we don’t want to keep.

[00:08:20] But we have to.

[00:08:21] So we have to be somebody we don’t want to be.

[00:08:23] We have to do something we don’t want to do.

[00:08:25] We have to put up with having something.

[00:08:27] We don’t want to have some consequence or something else.

[00:08:32] And it’s actually not until we refuse to feel trapped

[00:08:35] that we can start getting to this mental state called responsibility.

[00:08:41] And responsibility is also just a mental state.

[00:08:45] And it’s always available to us.

[00:08:47] It’s always accessible.

[00:08:49] So one of the reasons that people want to learn how to practice this

[00:08:53] is so that they can get themselves to this mental state of responsibility more frequently.

[00:08:58] And in the mental state of responsibility, we’re far more brilliant.

[00:09:02] We have far greater access to our complex adaptive reasoning abilities in our mind.

[00:09:08] We have no logic box.

[00:09:10] We’re wide open to all the forms of probabilistic reasoning available to us.

[00:09:16] We’re far more generative, far more creative.

[00:09:19] We feel free.

[00:09:20] We feel powerful.

[00:09:21] We feel that choice when we’re in this mental state.

[00:09:24] It’s a fabulous place to get to and to hang out in.

[00:09:27] And so that’s it.

[00:09:29] The responsibility process is a simple stack of words that is very easy to recognize,

[00:09:37] especially in others, Brad.

[00:09:39] It’s a thousand times easier to see it in other people than it is to see it in ourselves.

[00:09:43] Oh, isn’t the saying,

[00:09:45] recognize the plank in your own eye before you get the speck out of somebody else’s?

[00:09:50] Yes, absolutely.

[00:09:52] And therefore, it only works when self-applied.

[00:09:57] So if right now you’re thinking about how you can’t wait to call that person you dearly love

[00:10:04] and tell them that you know what’s wrong with them,

[00:10:06] don’t do it because that will backfire on you.

[00:10:10] Because they’ll then have two problems.

[00:10:13] They’ll have whatever problem.

[00:10:14] You want to point out to them that has them stuck in justify or whatever.

[00:10:20] And then they’ll have a bigger problem at that moment, and that is you labeling them.

[00:10:25] And by the way, you’d be coming from blame if you were to do that.

[00:10:29] You’d be saying, I have a problem.

[00:10:33] You need to change in order for you to be okay with me.

[00:10:38] So the responsibility process model seems very simple.

[00:10:43] Yet to apply it means that we need to be willing to realize that we’re a causal force in our life

[00:10:52] and everything that upsets us.

[00:10:54] And that the place to solve the problem is not out there, but it’s in here.

[00:11:00] Now, it’s an interesting word because I can imagine that some would actually interpret it slightly differently.

[00:11:08] And one of the ways I could see this is the obligation state.

[00:11:11] To some people, it would almost feel like responsibility.

[00:11:14] Almost.

[00:11:15] And I’ll just put this out.

[00:11:17] Say they’re inside a project that’s experiencing a great deal of chaos.

[00:11:22] We’re talking a world of work.

[00:11:24] And they feel that they are holding the whole thing together.

[00:11:28] I am taking responsibility.

[00:11:30] I’m doing everything I can.

[00:11:32] But it’s that, no, I’m doing this because I feel a sense of obligation that I’m struggling in this.

[00:11:39] It’s not understanding the responsibility.

[00:11:40] The responsibility is that I own the part that I can.

[00:11:44] But I choose to own that.

[00:11:46] I choose to take that as opposed to this is imposed on me from outside.

[00:11:50] Is that a fair?

[00:11:52] It’s more than fair, Brad.

[00:11:53] That’s spot on.

[00:11:55] The power of this material is that until we had this research, this phenomenological study,

[00:12:06] we used the word responsibility for all of these things.

[00:12:09] All of these stages.

[00:12:12] Labeling.

[00:12:13] It’s his responsibility.

[00:12:20] Justify is a little harder to say.

[00:12:22] But it’s the responsibility of the environment.

[00:12:24] It’s the responsibility of the circumstances.

[00:12:27] That I can’t do anything.

[00:12:31] Shame.

[00:12:33] We, our societies, every society I’ve checked on,

[00:12:39] especially more industrialized or advanced economies,

[00:12:44] who believe in productivity and employment,

[00:12:48] we define responsibility as shame and obligation.

[00:12:52] So, Brad, you have been reinforced your whole life by authorities, parents, teachers, others,

[00:13:00] for beating yourself up when you’ve made a mistake.

[00:13:03] They go, oh, good boy, look at Brad.

[00:13:05] What a great character he is.

[00:13:07] He’s taking responsibility.

[00:13:08] He’s taking responsibility for that mistake.

[00:13:11] And you’ve been reinforced for doing what you’re supposed to do even if you despise it.

[00:13:16] Oh, look at Brad.

[00:13:18] He’s really staying in there.

[00:13:19] He’s really following through.

[00:13:21] He’s not a quitter.

[00:13:24] So somebody’s in the, I’m going to go back to the project scenario again,

[00:13:30] thinking about the world of work.

[00:13:32] The blame state seems fairly obvious.

[00:13:35] The blame state seems, oh, I’m in this mess.

[00:13:37] I’m in this mess, and it’s their fault.

[00:13:39] It’s a very external pressure.

[00:13:41] As we cut the tree, is it more we’re starting to internalize this?

[00:13:46] Is the actual state of moving from blame to responsibility,

[00:13:50] the change from externalization of pressure to moving it to an internal state?

[00:13:57] In obligation, it’s really interesting.

[00:14:01] Some people see a kind of a psychology slash sociology comparison between blame and justified

[00:14:13] being psychology, externalizing, but shame and obligation being a little bit more sociological

[00:14:20] in that dealing with the world around them.

[00:14:25] So in obligation, we build up resentment towards, you know,

[00:14:30] towards who or whatever it is that we think has us trapped.

[00:14:35] So we resent the mortgage.

[00:14:37] We resent the kids.

[00:14:40] We resent the needy elderly parents that keep us from going bowling instead of, you know,

[00:14:46] going to help them do whatever they need to do.

[00:14:49] We resent the boss.

[00:14:53] And, you know, the interesting realization there is that if,

[00:14:59] if I’ve been making my own decisions in my life for more than three or four years,

[00:15:05] then I get to face the fact that I am the architect of my life.

[00:15:12] I am the architect of my life’s experience.

[00:15:15] It’s a product of my choices.

[00:15:18] And if you want to argue that, then I’d go further and say it’s a product of my filters.

[00:15:23] Oh, that’s a nice, that’s a nice lens.

[00:15:26] That wasn’t on purpose.

[00:15:28] Yeah.

[00:15:29] I’ll tell you that my filters were really caused by my environment,

[00:15:33] by my parents and my church and my schools and my neighborhoods.

[00:15:37] I say, okay.

[00:15:39] And do you want to defend those filters or do you want to examine them

[00:15:44] and decide which ones you want to keep and which ones you want to change?

[00:15:50] So filters are choices as well.

[00:15:54] So if I’ve been making my own decisions for a few years, I am the architect of my life.

[00:15:58] If there’s anything I don’t like about it, there’s only one person who gets to refactor it.

[00:16:04] So how does a person move from the place where their locus is outside,

[00:16:11] their locus is, they’re in the blame state or in the lower levels of the responsibility process.

[00:16:17] How do they move from the knee-jerk monkey brain reaction, it’s all them,

[00:16:24] to the, this is my part, this is what I can do.

[00:16:27] This is my choice at this point.

[00:16:29] Right.

[00:16:31] So what they do is they start a practice of practicing responsibility,

[00:16:39] using the three keys to responsibility of intention, awareness, and confront.

[00:16:46] So just like, you know, if you’re, if you, if your body is,

[00:16:56] if your body is really tight, and you want it to be looser,

[00:17:02] then you start a stretching practice.

[00:17:06] And you learn what’s true about your muscle fibers.

[00:17:10] And you learn what’s true about how to help them gradually release.

[00:17:15] And so, you know, you study yoga or you study stretching,

[00:17:20] and you learn the difference between ballistic stuff that’s going to tear them

[00:17:25] versus incremental gradual stuff that’s going to, you know, find them.

[00:17:29] And you learn about opening.

[00:17:31] And, you know, you, all of a sudden you open yourself to this huge volume

[00:17:36] of what’s true that you didn’t pay attention to before.

[00:17:39] Right.

[00:17:40] So that’s, that’s how to do what you asked, Brad,

[00:17:44] how to get out of this reactive mode of below the line to being at choice

[00:17:51] about recognizing those mental states.

[00:17:54] Those mental states and moving to responsibility.

[00:17:57] So intention, awareness, and confront.

[00:17:59] So I’ll give you an example.

[00:18:01] I have a very powerful intention to take 100% responsibility for my life

[00:18:12] all the time, every day, especially in new upsets.

[00:18:21] And then I developed very acute awareness of what it’s like to be me

[00:18:29] or in my mind when I’m in blame and when I’m justifying and when I’m in shame

[00:18:35] and when I’m in obligation.

[00:18:38] And so for most things in my life, I go from experiencing something going wrong,

[00:18:49] having a little bit of angst about it,

[00:18:51] catching myself in one of those mental states below the line,

[00:18:55] and moving out of it to responsibility about that quickly.

[00:19:00] And other people take months or weeks or days or hours.

[00:19:05] And so all of my work is designed to help you move from doing that

[00:19:11] in years or months or weeks to days or hours or minutes.

[00:19:19] So the process of enlightenment,

[00:19:21] which is where we’re talking about.

[00:19:24] We’re intending to go to a new direction.

[00:19:27] We’re becoming aware of the situation internally that’s preventing us to do that.

[00:19:32] And we confront the things inside and without that we feel,

[00:19:38] preventing us from getting to the destination.

[00:19:41] Is that along the lines of what you’re speaking here?

[00:19:45] I’m just trying to make sure that I understand.

[00:19:48] Because it sounds like it actually just has a very,

[00:19:51] very set pattern as well is the intention.

[00:19:54] Can the awareness happen before the intention?

[00:19:57] The intention leads the awareness.

[00:20:02] That’s a really good question.

[00:20:04] And I think it’s kind of academic, Brad.

[00:20:07] So three keys to responsibility are intention, awareness, and confront.

[00:20:13] All four of them are capabilities,

[00:20:16] profound capabilities of the mind that we’re born with and can develop.

[00:20:20] We can develop them like we can develop any muscle or any other skill.

[00:20:25] And it’s not like some people are born with them and some people aren’t.

[00:20:31] And our schools and parents don’t tend to develop them.

[00:20:35] We tend not to be introduced to these things until we get into studying change processes,

[00:20:41] which for most people get started in studying either leadership or personal growth.

[00:20:48] And then awareness is the one that’s most used.

[00:20:53] My belief is that awareness, though, is only part of the puzzle.

[00:20:59] And for me, I put intention first because if I don’t intend to operate from responsibility,

[00:21:08] then all the awareness and confront in the world doesn’t matter.

[00:21:13] So for me, intention is everything.

[00:21:16] The deliberateness of thought, deliberateness of action.

[00:21:21] So if I’m aware that I happen to call people by nicknames as opposed to short names,

[00:21:28] that I’m not by their preferred full name.

[00:21:32] And yes, this is a bad habit of mine at times.

[00:21:37] But if I’m not intent about actually confronting that particular thing and correcting,

[00:21:44] I will continue going on.

[00:21:46] Misnaming people forever.

[00:21:49] If I’m intentional about it and I’m aware that I have a habit that needs to be confronted,

[00:21:58] and even if I slip, I’m then able to correct.

[00:22:01] And the practice of being intentional, taking responsibility for my action and then correct

[00:22:07] becomes more ingrained each time I do it as well.

[00:22:10] Right.

[00:22:11] And that’s why there’s a game that we teach that people love.

[00:22:15] And I think it’s Chapter 7 in the book, The Responsibility Process, called the Catch Sooner Game.

[00:22:22] The Catch Sooner Game just says that you can change any habit of mind or behavior that you want to change

[00:22:29] by simply catching yourself engaging in what you don’t want to do,

[00:22:36] stopping right then and switching to what you do want to do,

[00:22:42] and then simply forgiving yourself, having some compassion for yourself, some empathy.

[00:22:47] That’s deep circuitry that you’ve created over your years that has that pattern that operates that way.

[00:22:56] So don’t beat yourself up.

[00:22:59] Don’t chastise yourself.

[00:23:02] Don’t, quote, hold yourself accountable, which is what most personal change programs teach.

[00:23:09] Instead, forgive yourself for being human.

[00:23:11] Forgive yourself for not being able to change a long-held pattern in a moment.

[00:23:21] Next step is to vow to catch yourself sooner in the pattern next time.

[00:23:27] That’s all.

[00:23:28] Very simple.

[00:23:29] Catch yourself, change it right now for this incidence, and then forgive yourself for being human,

[00:23:36] let it go, and vow to catch yourself earlier in the pattern next time.

[00:23:40] So I tell a story about, you know, I’m going to stop eating donuts.

[00:23:45] And I catch myself sitting, standing next to the food table at the party halfway through the second donut.

[00:23:55] Okay.

[00:23:57] So part of our normal pattern would be to say, well, I’ve already eaten half of it.

[00:24:02] I might as well finish it, right?

[00:24:05] This says, you know, look at that donut.

[00:24:09] Remember your promise to yourself.

[00:24:11] You just caught yourself.

[00:24:12] Congratulations.

[00:24:14] Put the donut in the trash and pick up the celery or whatever.

[00:24:20] And then forgive yourself.

[00:24:22] You’re human.

[00:24:23] And then just vow to catch yourself earlier in the pattern next time.

[00:24:27] So the next time, right, I catch myself approaching the donuts at the table and catch myself.

[00:24:34] And so then I decide to go look at the celery.

[00:24:38] And then the next time, I catch myself from across the room seeing that there’s this cool table full of sweets.

[00:24:46] And I decide I don’t run my body on that.

[00:24:49] It’s that practice.

[00:24:52] I can actually very much relate to this.

[00:24:54] About 10 years ago, I was a much heavier human being.

[00:24:57] I was about 320 pounds.

[00:24:59] Wow.

[00:25:00] I was a much bigger boy.

[00:25:02] And I’ve eventually gotten myself down to about 180.

[00:25:07] But when I decided to lose weight, it was basically everybody told me I was fat.

[00:25:15] And when you’re that big, you know you’re not pretty.

[00:25:19] You know you’re not.

[00:25:20] But what it gets to is you play a head game where it’s, yeah, I’m fat.

[00:25:24] Just leave me alone.

[00:25:25] I get it.

[00:25:26] I get it.

[00:25:27] I can’t do anything about it.

[00:25:28] And now I went to see an ear, nose, throat doctor.

[00:25:34] And for some reason, something clicked in my head.

[00:25:36] And I just said, you know what?

[00:25:37] I’m going to do this.

[00:25:38] I’m going to lose weight.

[00:25:40] But I made a couple of packs with myself.

[00:25:43] One of them, and I hadn’t read the responsibility process at this time, was to give myself the slip-ups.

[00:25:51] And I made that very deliberate choice right at the start.

[00:25:54] I know I’m not going to get this right.

[00:25:57] I know I’m going to make mistakes.

[00:25:59] I am going to forgive myself, acknowledge I’m human.

[00:26:03] Exact words.

[00:26:04] Acknowledge I’m human.

[00:26:05] And then resolve the next time to do it a little bit better.

[00:26:09] And that was all it was.

[00:26:10] And it was such a powerful thing for me.

[00:26:12] But then we come back to the intentionality side of things.

[00:26:15] Well, if I know that I’m going to make some mistakes, let’s set myself up for success.

[00:26:19] So I’m going to make sure that I don’t put snacks in the cupboard.

[00:26:24] And I know that I’m going to go to the cupboard.

[00:26:26] I know I’m going to go to the fridge.

[00:26:27] So what I’ll do is I’m going to put some sparkling mineral water and some soda in the fridge, some diet soda in the fridge.

[00:26:34] And I’ll put cashews in the cupboard.

[00:26:36] And if I go to the cupboard, rather than beat myself up about going to the cupboard, what I’ll do is I’ll have a small handful of cashews.

[00:26:43] Ah, wonderful.

[00:26:44] And I found that that was possibly the most powerful thing.

[00:26:50] It’s coffee time for you, not for me.

[00:26:53] Oh, wine is a good thing.

[00:26:55] That was my last night.

[00:26:57] But that little change made huge impact on my life.

[00:27:02] Yes.

[00:27:03] And it sounds like you’re very much reflecting that.

[00:27:06] It’s that acknowledge the human in this.

[00:27:10] Well, absolutely.

[00:27:13] And, you know, eventually what we’re practicing, so we call intention the winning key.

[00:27:22] Win is an intention that we love being winners.

[00:27:25] We love having what we want.

[00:27:27] We love doing what we want.

[00:27:28] We love being what we want.

[00:27:30] So we call intention the winning key.

[00:27:32] We call awareness the change key because awareness helps us identify gaps between where we are, where we want to be.

[00:27:40] We call confront the growth key.

[00:27:43] And what’s happening in growth and personal growth is we’re getting more and more and more aligned with ultimate and universal reality.

[00:27:54] Rather than living lies, rather than fighting against what’s true, we’re learning what’s true and aligning with what’s true.

[00:28:01] And so the fact that you discovered for yourself what we call the catch sooner game makes perfect sense because it’s natural human process that works.

[00:28:16] The unnatural process, the unnatural process is the one that so many people tout, which says find somebody to hold you accountable.

[00:28:24] And if you don’t reach your goal when you say you’re going to reach it, then punish yourself.

[00:28:29] Find a way to discipline yourself.

[00:28:30] And all that does is…

[00:28:33] I think the word discipline gets…

[00:28:36] Yeah.

[00:28:37] And all that does is send us to shame.

[00:28:39] So if I try and use a framework that teaches me to beat myself up if I catch myself eating a doughnut.

[00:28:48] And in the responsibility process, that just sends us to shame.

[00:28:53] So we do an analysis of that and say, okay, anything that sends us to shame must not be real.

[00:28:59] It must be false or fake.

[00:29:02] Well, what sends us to shame?

[00:29:08] Oh, well, acknowledging humanity, that wouldn’t send us to shame.

[00:29:12] Having some compassion, having some humility, having some empathy, realizing that neural patterns run deep, that wouldn’t send us to shame.

[00:29:22] Also, I find there’s a dissonance.

[00:29:28] There’s a dissonance, too.

[00:29:30] When you’re in that beat-yourself-up state where you’re looking at external factors and you’re not making your own choices, I find you get a real internal dissonance.

[00:29:41] So you’re acting in a certain way, but your brain and everything else is screaming at you to do something else.

[00:29:47] And the misalignment, almost, it’s just destructive.

[00:29:54] Whereas when you can actually bring help, bring people together…

[00:29:56] Yeah.

[00:29:57] Yeah.

[00:29:58] For example, it’s back to deliberate choices, deliberate responses to environment.

[00:30:02] They are responses that you have chosen, not have been imposed on you.

[00:30:07] The dissonance inside helps go away, and you do, like you said, become that little bit happier.

[00:30:13] That little bit, every time that you do it.

[00:30:17] Much more free.

[00:30:19] Much more free.

[00:30:21] Much more, right.

[00:30:25] Yup.

[00:30:27] responsibility like you said you can’t we actually use i’m going to circle back to the

[00:30:33] word discipline because i i think it’s one of the ones that gets misused a little bit

[00:30:38] i i don’t see that a disciplined life is a life where you beat yourself up the discipline life

[00:30:45] for me is one where you make deliberate choices about what you’re doing and it’s comes back to

[00:30:49] your intention and confront willing to make those be intentional about your practice be aware of

[00:30:58] what you’re doing and then making the decision to confront the things that you want to change

[00:31:03] and that for me is more discipline than belting oneself up because i slipped on the donut

[00:31:10] belting oneself off because i spoke out of turn i said something that was hurtful but i didn’t

[00:31:17] necessarily intend at the time it was

[00:31:19] a

[00:31:19] the reaction to something that i hadn’t controlled and it wasn’t intentional about

[00:31:23] i can do something to fix the problem that i’ve just caused by my

[00:31:28] um misawareness where i haven’t chosen to do something i’ve just reacted

[00:31:33] but uh belting myself up about it doesn’t help them and it doesn’t help me

[00:31:39] you know brad i think all i want to do is reinforce what you said and build on it

[00:31:47] by seeing the way i think about discipline

[00:31:49] is that we use that term in in two broad ways

[00:31:54] one of those ways is that we use it um as obligation we use it as we must discipline

[00:32:03] ourselves uh in order to get the results that we want we must we must do what we have to do

[00:32:11] instead of what we want to do and the other way we use it is we use it as a way to talk about

[00:32:18] healthy habits

[00:32:19] so i’m a very i’m a very disciplined cyclist and swimmer yes you can find me you know x times a

[00:32:30] week uh playing hooky from my desk and being out there on my bike uh or um in the pool

[00:32:39] i love it i’m good at it it keeps me healthy i get tremendous meditation done i get tremendous

[00:32:46] work done um

[00:32:49] i take care of my body and it’s it’s effortless in that i want to do it so it’s playing

[00:33:00] yeah it’s also disciplined in the form of good healthy functional habit yes

[00:33:10] and obligation because discipline can slip back into obligation if you’re disciplined

[00:33:14] and intentional and you’re using that in the form of i’m disciplined

[00:33:19] in that i’m making my own choices and i’m aware and i’m using the responsibility process and that

[00:33:24] might be my discipline but that can slip back into obligation and shame very very easily unless again

[00:33:30] you’re maintaining that awareness of mind oh i i’m i i haven’t ridden my bike today i haven’t

[00:33:38] ridden my bike for five days in this example you know i really need to get right back into that

[00:33:42] and i i i’m a bad human being i i’m not doing what i said i would do so i’ve slipped again

[00:33:47] from responsibility back into obligation so i suppose you can elevate up the tree and you can

[00:33:52] without intention without intentionality not without intention without being continually

[00:33:58] intentional you can actually move yourself back down into the lower levels can’t you

[00:34:03] well the so the awareness there that you want to develop

[00:34:09] is that you have to evaluate yourself as having been wrong in order for that to happen okay

[00:34:16] okay

[00:34:17] you you must turn you must turn that five days that you missed working out you must turn that

[00:34:24] into a problem into an evaluation for that to happen so if instead you say to yourself

[00:34:34] wow five days went by without me having a chance or a thought of riding um what do i want about

[00:34:43] that well i think i’d like to go riding today or as soon as i can

[00:34:47] right not not there’s something wrong with me or that that was bad or that that was wrong

[00:34:53] so so people ask me christopher is there any way to get to the mental state of responsibility and

[00:35:03] stay there and first that question comes from being raised to think that responsibility is

[00:35:10] our character so we’re we were raised our whole lives to be responsible people except what we

[00:35:15] weren’t told is that is that we’re responsible people we’re responsible people we’re responsible

[00:35:17] people we’re being we’re being rewarded for shame and obligation as well as responsibility

[00:35:22] which means you believe that shame and obligation is um is good character traits

[00:35:29] um so what we teach is that responsibility is not our character at all it’s simply a mental state

[00:35:38] it’s uh i really like that because um i can see how if you’ve

[00:35:46] not engaged with the responsibility of the responsibility of the responsibility of the

[00:35:47] responsibility process before you you’re not in a pattern of thinking about own choices

[00:35:54] it would be very easy to say oh i’m a bad person i never seem to get anything done i i i’m not

[00:36:02] meeting my obligations i’m not so you could very internalize the what you perceive as an

[00:36:08] external force is an internal deficit in a very real way yeah i believe that everybody’s

[00:36:17] like nobody has deficits deficits are labels put on us by uh some you know society that tries to

[00:36:25] mold us in certain directions um so anyway you know where i was going is that um even though i

[00:36:35] say over and over and over that every time something goes wrong our mind takes us to the

[00:36:39] bottom of this chart people still believe the game is that they’re supposed to go through these

[00:36:44] these phases and get to responsibility

[00:36:47] and then stay there for the rest of their life

[00:36:49] and when they learn that that’s not true so for instance this morning today numerous things have

[00:36:58] gone wrong in my life and my mind takes me to the bottom of that chart and i get to find myself

[00:37:03] there and pull myself up and that’s after 29 years of practice to the point of mastery

[00:37:08] so the truth about that is that the pattern is never going to go away

[00:37:13] so it’s not about trying to change the pattern it’s about trying to change the pattern

[00:37:17] or overcome the pattern the pattern is never going to go away every time i have angst my mind is going

[00:37:23] to take me to blame every time the so the game is how quickly can i recognize it uh and solve the

[00:37:32] real problem which is in my head between what i want and what i have and how to get what i want

[00:37:38] but so people do ask christopher is there any way to to stay in responsibility and never get

[00:37:45] knocked out of it

[00:37:47] And I say, sure, we know the answer to that, and that is never have anything go wrong.

[00:37:54] What a wonderful world, actually.

[00:37:56] I find some of the most fun moments are when things have gone completely wrong and I get to move through it.

[00:38:03] Good for you, yes.

[00:38:07] Yeah, a boring world it would be if nothing went wrong.

[00:38:10] Actually not.

[00:38:11] But, so if you start examining that, where is right and wrong defined?

[00:38:20] Ah, that’s true.

[00:38:22] It’s a very human construct as well, isn’t it?

[00:38:25] It’s a very human construct.

[00:38:27] Right and wrong is invented by humans in order to control self and other.

[00:38:39] And so what is…

[00:38:41] It’s a very human construct if we just also had as part of our practice of intention, awareness, and confront to practice more and more letting go of right and wrong as a point of view.

[00:38:51] And what that means is that more and more of our life every day becomes perfect.

[00:38:59] And our mind gets hijacked less often.

[00:39:02] So I talk about our mind getting hijacked.

[00:39:05] Every time something goes wrong, we have anxiety.

[00:39:08] This very precise psychology in our mind triggers.

[00:39:11] It triggers the responsibility process.

[00:39:12] Well, how do we stop it from being triggered?

[00:39:14] We stop it by stopping the evaluation of right and wrong.

[00:39:18] How do we stop the evaluation of right and wrong?

[00:39:20] By getting rid of those labels and seeing more things as they really are, which is they just are.

[00:39:26] Yes.

[00:39:27] I was reading a thing by Amos Dversky and one of his sayings was the easiest way to get rid of a stereotype is get rid of the label.

[00:39:38] So true.

[00:39:39] I was just thinking.

[00:39:41] When you said that, I started reflecting, well, what do we call wrong?

[00:39:44] We call wrong things that are unexpected, things that might be unpleasant, that are uncomfortable.

[00:39:52] The un-words tend to be unwanted.

[00:39:58] Whereas if I guess your mindset is more, this is change, this is okay, and then you make your choice through that,

[00:40:09] that’s a much more empowered.

[00:40:11] I do a workshop that I’ve done for years gathering the best stuff I’ve found on shared responsibility on teamwork collaboration.

[00:40:24] One of the agreements that I ask people to make and hold throughout the workshop is to replace the construct of right and wrong

[00:40:32] with the construct of works for me and doesn’t work for me.

[00:40:37] Okay.

[00:40:38] I like it.

[00:40:39] No, we have a great conversation.

[00:40:41] about, well, what does that mean? What’s the difference between the semantics of right

[00:40:46] and wrong and the semantics of works for me and doesn’t work for me? And the types of

[00:40:51] things that people usually come up with is that one is judgmental, where the other is

[00:40:58] actually owning or acknowledging one’s own point of view. One is absolutism, acting as

[00:41:04] if you know absolute, and the other is admitting to a perspective. One shuts down conversation

[00:41:15] and the other opens it up.

[00:41:19] Yes. No, that’s quite a lot of fun. Now, we’ve talked about a lot of how we do this ourselves.

[00:41:31] How do…

[00:41:34] The response

[00:41:34] responsibility for a person, how do they start themselves on the journey? And then

[00:41:38] say we’re in a team environment, how would that then translate out into, say, a group

[00:41:44] of people? Because responsibility, obligation, blame, shame, justify, all of the above, I

[00:41:51] can see that happening at an organizational level. And the organization could be a cell

[00:41:56] of five people. It could be a much larger thing as well. I can see that this scales

[00:42:02] and translates.

[00:42:03] Has that been your experience?

[00:42:09] There are some things that we’ve learned that can destroy it from growing or scaling

[00:42:18] very rapidly and things that can support it in doing so. So I would say first in terms of inviting other organizations…

[00:42:32] Mm-hmm?

[00:42:33] So one of the things that happens is that because it’s so much easier to see in others than to see in ourselves, then most people go immediately to, oh, my God, how do I get people around me to adopt this?

[00:42:48] And yet they have not developed any proficiency yet themselves.

[00:42:55] Yeah.

[00:42:55] So the first thing I do is I implore you to apply it to only you for weeks or months before you have any expectations of anybody else doing anything with it.

[00:43:12] And just remind yourself that if there are people around you that annoy you because they’re not taking responsibility, well, then the thing to ask yourself about that is how did I create, choose, and attract that?

[00:43:25] And.

[00:43:25] And how would I show up differently for them to be different?

[00:43:30] And I find people normally, especially the ones that annoy you or have what you would term misbehavior, they’re normally resultant of the system that they’re in.

[00:43:41] There’s normally a condition either caused from without or caused from within, but there’s normally something that is forming the basis of the behavior.

[00:43:51] And.

[00:43:52] Yeah.

[00:43:53] And you chose that.

[00:43:54] You chose.

[00:43:55] You chose to be in that system with them.

[00:43:57] Exactly.

[00:43:57] And I can either choose to help change the system and make an impact in that way, but I can’t change them.

[00:44:04] I can go on my own journey and if I can give them some tools to come along with me, but I can’t enforce that on them.

[00:44:11] And it almost it’s almost the I need the relationship there first, because the relationship is the basis of that communication.

[00:44:20] And if they then want to engage and join.

[00:44:25] And if they want to engage and join me on the journey that I’m going on, that’s great.

[00:44:27] I’m going to share with you a story that unfortunately has happened too many times.

[00:44:34] I give a speech to a bunch of business leaders afterwards.

[00:44:37] One comes up to me and gives me a huge handshake and gushing with joy says to me, you know, thank you.

[00:44:49] That was a great speech.

[00:44:50] Now I understand why I, the owner.

[00:44:55] But the company is the responsible one.

[00:44:58] Yet, Christopher, I’m surrounded by all of these people that don’t practice responsibility.

[00:45:03] Damn, what do I do about them?

[00:45:06] Yeah.

[00:45:06] And so, you know, I found that that person is an example of what most of us hear and see when we’re first introduced to this.

[00:45:20] And that is we apply it to everybody but ourselves.

[00:45:23] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:24] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:25] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:29] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:30] How did you attract those people to apply for jobs at your company?

[00:45:35] Yeah.

[00:45:35] How did you hire them?

[00:45:37] How did you select them?

[00:45:38] How did you onboard them?

[00:45:40] How did you train them?

[00:45:41] And how have you been reinforcing them all these years for them to be that way?

[00:45:46] Right.

[00:45:46] And who would have to change for the system to change?

[00:45:52] Yes.

[00:45:54] Yeah.

[00:45:54] And it’s one of the things I’ve also observed, not only for myself,

[00:46:00] but I’ve seen it in teams.

[00:46:03] And normally, so I know when I’ve gotten better and I’ve changed

[00:46:09] in certain things, my world gets better.

[00:46:12] And funnily enough, I start seeing the world around me get better as well.

[00:46:15] The world, the little bits and pieces, the people that touch me,

[00:46:19] they’re a little bit happier.

[00:46:20] And I get to see the transformations in them.

[00:46:23] But one of the things I love watching in teams is when you’ve got that one

[00:46:26] person in the middle that has not got it at all,

[00:46:29] they’re struggling in the system, suddenly something clicks.

[00:46:33] Oh, I can affect this.

[00:46:35] I can do something about this.

[00:46:37] And then they take it on board.

[00:46:39] Not been imposed.

[00:46:40] It’s been an internal choice.

[00:46:41] And they have just, they’ve not from obligation decided to do this.

[00:46:45] They’ve just said, no, I can make a change.

[00:46:47] I can actually do something that makes a difference.

[00:46:50] And they change.

[00:46:52] And it’s almost,

[00:46:53] it’s almost like a virus is that one little change in that person.

[00:46:59] The person beside them says, oh, they’ve changed.

[00:47:01] It looks really good.

[00:47:02] I’d like some of that.

[00:47:04] I’m going to change too.

[00:47:05] And that’s when you see it start to spread.

[00:47:06] Now that can be crushed so easily.

[00:47:09] It can be, but,

[00:47:12] but what you’ve just described is where I start all leadership coaching,

[00:47:18] whether it’s authoritative leadership, leadership with the title,

[00:47:22] or whether it’s pure leadership.

[00:47:23] And that is for things to change first time, let’s change.

[00:47:27] And when I, when I change,

[00:47:29] I change the way I look at things and the things that I look at change.

[00:47:33] And so you asked, you know, sort of how did, how,

[00:47:37] what do you do about this in a group or a team or organization?

[00:47:41] Well,

[00:47:41] what I found is that because this research changes people’s definition of

[00:47:51] responsibility,

[00:47:52] and it changes their understanding,

[00:47:53] understanding of responsibility and it it’s it alters society’s definition of

[00:48:04] responsibility that we grew up learning.

[00:48:06] Then if you really want other people to join you in this,

[00:48:13] then you must become a teacher of this material.

[00:48:19] And, you know,

[00:48:21] that’s why we make the poster available.

[00:48:23] To download from my website and on the back of the poster,

[00:48:26] we have the teaching points summarizing everything that I’ve said during this

[00:48:31] podcast with you today.

[00:48:34] And you know,

[00:48:37] it is first you’ll practice the idea that you don’t want to

[00:48:42] label anybody else and you only want to apply it to yourself.

[00:48:47] If you’ll practice that,

[00:48:48] then I’m okay if you download that poster and immediately go say,

[00:48:53] can I,

[00:48:53] can I try and explain this to you?

[00:48:55] I find it really valuable and I’d like the experience of trying to explain it.

[00:48:59] And you might find it valuable too.

[00:49:02] Yeah.

[00:49:04] That’s really,

[00:49:05] that’s really good.

[00:49:06] And that’s how you bring it to a team.

[00:49:08] And then,

[00:49:08] and then maybe you have a conversation about an agreement.

[00:49:14] What if we all do our best to operate from responsibility,

[00:49:18] knowing full well that stuff’s going to go wrong and we’re all going to go to blame.

[00:49:23] And nothing good is going to happen until one of us climbs back up and pulls the

[00:49:27] rest of us back up.

[00:49:29] What if we had that as an agreement?

[00:49:30] Could we do that?

[00:49:33] And that’s,

[00:49:34] that’s liberating,

[00:49:35] isn’t it?

[00:49:36] Yeah.

[00:49:37] Or I forgot this one.

[00:49:39] How about this one,

[00:49:41] Brad,

[00:49:42] I’m trying to learn to practice responsibility.

[00:49:45] And I know that catching myself below the line can be really challenging when I’m

[00:49:49] new at this.

[00:49:51] Um,

[00:49:51] but it’s much easier for other people to see it.

[00:49:53] And even if it’s in myself,

[00:49:55] uh,

[00:49:57] uh,

[00:49:57] I give you 100% permission to let me know if you observed any behavior in me

[00:50:02] that looks like blame or justify or shame or obligation.

[00:50:05] I hope you would do it lovingly.

[00:50:07] Yes.

[00:50:08] Yeah.

[00:50:11] Oh,

[00:50:11] that just fills my heart with good things.

[00:50:14] Sure.

[00:50:14] For me.

[00:50:15] Nice.

[00:50:16] Yeah,

[00:50:16] it does.

[00:50:17] Um,

[00:50:18] now in terms of larger organization,

[00:50:21] then we teach people,

[00:50:23] we’ll simply go find partners one by one,

[00:50:27] uh,

[00:50:28] at the level of peers or below.

[00:50:30] It’s a little more challenging to do upward.

[00:50:32] Um,

[00:50:34] but eventually,

[00:50:36] uh,

[00:50:36] in terms of the system,

[00:50:38] uh,

[00:50:39] I only work in systems now where I can work top down in terms of doing deep

[00:50:45] change.

[00:50:46] Uh,

[00:50:46] and I,

[00:50:48] it’s been years since I was willing to take a project from executive aid that

[00:50:52] wants me to change,

[00:50:53] which is the,

[00:50:54] um,

[00:50:55] and,

[00:50:56] excuse me.

[00:50:57] No problem.

[00:50:58] The,

[00:50:59] um,

[00:51:00] the,

[00:51:01] um,

[00:51:02] Do you need to get that?

[00:51:03] I,

[00:51:04] I can find it necessary.

[00:51:05] No,

[00:51:06] I just have difficulty stopping it because it rings on my computer.

[00:51:07] Um,

[00:51:08] yes,

[00:51:09] I’ve had that happen.

[00:51:10] Sorry.

[00:51:11] No,

[00:51:12] no problem.

[00:51:13] Let me just text and tell them I’ll get back to you.

[00:51:14] Okay.

[00:51:15] So,

[00:51:16] so,

[00:51:17] so,

[00:51:18] so,

[00:51:19] so,

[00:51:20] so,

[00:51:21] so,

[00:51:22] so,

[00:51:23] so,

[00:51:24] so,

[00:51:25] um…

[00:51:26] That’s okay.

[00:51:27] Well,

[00:51:28] we’ll,

[00:51:29] we’ll wrap it up after this.

[00:51:30] All right.

[00:51:31] in a way,

[00:51:32] I be respectful of your time.

[00:51:33] Mm.

[00:51:34] mm,

[00:51:35] mm.

[00:51:36] So,

[00:51:37] uh,

[00:51:38] the,

[00:51:39] the sneaky thing about the responsibility process is that we’re absolutely

[00:51:42] sure,

[00:51:43] in all cases,

[00:51:44] that somebody outside of

[00:51:45] us has to change until we get to responsibility.

[00:51:49] And then we realize that the change has to happen here.

[00:51:51] to happen here and so the the number of executives or owners with big budgets to to hire you to

[00:52:02] change or install change or implement something in other groups is immense and it’s so attractive

[00:52:09] in business to go after this money and the truth is it’s all false

[00:52:15] and so you know i’ve had a number of experiences where executive a hired me to change group b

[00:52:24] and i went into group b and i did good work and guess what happened group b a bunch of the people

[00:52:30] there looked up and they said i’m a better leader than that guy i report to i’m leaving i deserve

[00:52:36] better this company is no longer qualified to have me work for it yes yes i can believe it

[00:52:44] so now

[00:52:45] anytime i get a call from executive a i say i will help you make whatever change you want to make

[00:52:54] but it’s going to start with you and me for three months that’s awesome

[00:53:00] now we’re nearing the end of our time and uh we’d like to give our guests a chance to call out

[00:53:07] anything that they have coming up any promotions any courses um really anything that uh is important

[00:53:15] in the world

[00:53:15] you

[00:53:15] , thank you brad um so i’m um me and my company is a little bit like phoenix rising from ashes i

[00:53:28] had a a significant illness uh that started a few years back lasted for a couple of years

[00:53:36] took me out took uh took the company down uh we both survived uh and we’re back big time

[00:53:43] and uh since early 2018

[00:53:45] i’ve been rebuilding and i’m happy to say that uh things are going great

[00:53:52] in late last year we discovered the responsibility.com the url was available

[00:54:01] i gosh darn it i acquired it and in january we decided to change the company name from

[00:54:09] partnerworks inc which it started as a teamwork collaboration shared responsibility company so

[00:54:15] So partner works is a German word meaning working productively together.

[00:54:20] So we’re now the Responsibility Company.

[00:54:23] And we are in the moment rebranding and building Responsibility.com, the website.

[00:54:31] I hope that by the time you are listening to this podcast, we will have launched a brand new product,

[00:54:38] which is a distance learning product that anybody in the world can participate in.

[00:54:46] You may have heard about the Leadership Gift Program.

[00:54:48] That’s something that’s 10 years old now.

[00:54:50] It’s closing to new members.

[00:54:53] And the only way you’ll be able to get into the Leadership Gift Program is by being a graduate of this new product,

[00:54:58] which is called Responsibility Immersion.

[00:55:01] And so go to Responsibility.com, check out Responsibility Immersion.

[00:55:08] It’s a great place to get started.

[00:55:08] And while you’re there, if Responsibility Immersion isn’t for you now,

[00:55:13] then you’ll have lots of opportunities to get on our announcement list

[00:55:16] and stay in touch with future workshops around the world

[00:55:20] or distance learning programs like Responsibility Immersion.

[00:55:25] That’s excellent.

[00:55:26] Now, also, if our listeners want to get in touch with you, what’s the best way to contact you?

[00:55:33] Responsibility.com.

[00:55:36] ChristopherAvery.com.

[00:55:37] LinkedIn.

[00:55:41] So those are all good ways.

[00:55:43] Lots of different paths.

[00:55:45] I’ve been on the mailing list for quite some time, so it’s been excellent.

[00:55:50] Well, thank you again, Christopher, for your time.

[00:55:53] Really, really appreciated the discussion.

[00:55:55] Honestly, I’d love to keep talking because we’re into a spot that I find really super interesting,

[00:56:00] but maybe for a future date.

[00:56:04] Maybe for a future date.

[00:56:05] Yeah.

[00:56:06] Look, also, thank you for your time.

[00:56:07] Also, thank you to our listening audience.

[00:56:09] If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review us on iTunes.

[00:56:12] It really does help.

[00:56:13] If you want to support through financially, you can join us on Patreon.

[00:56:18] Also, if you want a conversation, please join us on the Agile Uprising Coalition.

[00:56:23] That’s coalition.agileuprising.com,

[00:56:25] where you can talk to any of the members of the board and other members and practitioners in Agile

[00:56:30] to get support and advice and even be able to help others as well.

[00:56:35] Until next time, this is the Agile.

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