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Leitura de 54 min

EP45: How To Give And Receive Feedback with Nicola Slater

Summary

This episode of the Tech World Human Skills Podcast features Nicola Slater, a People Development Manager with a background in tech, discussing the critical skill of giving and receiving feedback in the workplace. The conversation explores why feedback is essential for personal and professional growth, yet often avoided due to emotional discomfort and fear of damaging relationships.

Nicola introduces several practical frameworks for effective feedback. The COIN model (Context, Observation, Impact, Next steps) provides a structure for preparing feedback, emphasizing the importance of specific, observed examples. She advises against using the phrase “Can I give you some feedback?” as it often triggers anxiety, and instead recommends framing feedback as a collaborative conversation. The Accountability Dial framework is presented as a tool for escalating feedback appropriately—starting with a light, problem-solving approach for first occurrences and increasing the seriousness if the issue persists.

The discussion critiques the traditional “shit sandwich” approach (praise-critique-praise), arguing it can make praise seem insincere and cause recipients to wait for the negative. Instead, Nicola advocates for separating praise and critique, making both specific and actionable. For receiving feedback, she introduces the ACT model (Accept, Consider, Thank), which helps manage emotional reactions and encourages a thoughtful response rather than defensive pushback.

Key takeaways include making feedback a conversation rather than a monologue, addressing issues early and gently, and proactively asking for feedback to control the timing and topic. The episode emphasizes that effective feedback, rooted in both honesty and care (or “Compassionate Candor”), is a generous act that fuels performance and development, and is a skill valuable for everyone, not just managers.

Recommendations

Books

  • Radical Candor — A book and movement by Kim Scott, which divides management and feedback into quadrants based on honesty and caring. The ideal is ‘Compassionate Candor’—being both honest and caring.

Frameworks

  • COIN Model — A framework for preparing feedback: Context, Observation, Impact, Next steps. Emphasizes the need for specific, observed examples.
  • Accountability Dial — A framework by Jonathan Raymond for determining when and how to give feedback, suggesting starting with a light, problem-solving approach and escalating if needed.
  • ACT Model — A framework for receiving feedback: Accept, Consider, Thank. Designed to manage emotional reactions and encourage a thoughtful response.

People

  • Kim Scott — Author of Radical Candor, mentioned as having a tech background and providing a valuable framework for feedback that balances honesty with care.
  • Sheila Heen — An expert on feedback reception. Her work identifies three triggers (Truth, Relationship, Identity) that can cause people to push back on feedback.
  • Jonathan Raymond — Creator of the Accountability Dial framework, which provides a model for escalating feedback appropriately based on how often an issue occurs.

Topic Timeline

  • 00:00:00 — Introduction to the importance of feedback — Host Ben Pearce introduces the episode’s topic: giving and receiving feedback. He welcomes guest Nicola Slater, a People Development Manager with a tech background who now focuses on human skills. Nicola explains that feedback is “rocket fuel” for performance and career development, and giving it is a kind, generous act in the workplace. They discuss the common emotional battle where people logically want feedback but may hate receiving it due to fear of criticism.
  • 00:06:21 — Feedback as an act of kindness and Radical Candor — The conversation frames giving feedback as an act of kindness and compassion, using the analogy of telling someone their fly is undone. Nicola introduces Kim Scott’s Radical Candor (or Compassionate Candor) model, which posits that great feedback exists at the intersection of honesty and caring. They discuss the pitfalls of being honest but not caring (“Obnoxious Aggression”) or caring but not honest, emphasizing the goal is to be both to help people be their best.
  • 00:13:50 — The COIN framework for structuring feedback — Nicola shares the COIN framework for preparing feedback: Context (the situation), Observation (specific, observed behavior), Impact (the effect of that behavior), and Next steps (what should change). She stresses the critical importance of the Observation being concrete and specific. However, she advises against delivering feedback as a rigid COIN monologue, as it can feel like a telling-off. Instead, she recommends using it to prepare, then starting the conversation more openly (e.g., “Can we chat about the team meeting?”) to foster dialogue and problem-solving.
  • 00:20:29 — When to give feedback and the Accountability Dial — Ben asks about the timing of feedback—in the moment versus later. Nicola shares a personal story of receiving shocking, accumulated negative feedback at an annual review to illustrate the harm of waiting. She recommends addressing issues early and gently using the “Accountability Dial” framework. This involves starting with a light, problem-solving conversation at the first occurrence, and gradually increasing the seriousness and consequences if the behavior doesn’t change, rather than letting issues fester.
  • 00:28:33 — Critiquing the ‘Shit Sandwich’ and giving praise — They critique the classic “shit sandwich” feedback method (praise-critique-praise). Nicola explains its flaws: some people only hear the praise and miss the critique, while others dismiss the praise as mere padding for the coming criticism. She advises separating praise and critique for clarity. The discussion then turns to giving positive feedback, emphasizing that, like critique, it should be specific and include observed examples and impact so the recipient knows what to repeat.
  • 00:34:05 — How to receive feedback using the ACT model — The focus shifts to receiving feedback. Nicola introduces the ACT model: Accept (don’t push back immediately, say thank you), Consider (take time to reflect, identify if any of Sheila Heen’s feedback triggers—Truth, Relationship, Identity—are at play), and Thank (express gratitude to encourage future feedback). Ben shares his personal strategy of maintaining a “poker face” to manage his initial emotional reaction. They also discuss the power of proactively asking for feedback to control the topic, timing, and source.
  • 00:41:10 — Key takeaways and conclusion — Nicola summarizes three key takeaways: 1) Make feedback a conversation, not a monologue. 2) Address issues small but fast (nip them in the bud early and gently). 3) Proactively ask for feedback to build confidence and safety in your relationships. Ben recaps the three main frameworks discussed: COIN for preparation, the Accountability Dial for escalation, and ACT for receiving. The episode closes with the vision of a world where everyone is skilled at giving and receiving feedback.

Episode Info

  • Podcast: Tech World Human Skills
  • Author: Ben Pearce
  • Category: Technology Business Careers Education Self-Improvement
  • Published: 2024-11-27T05:30:00Z
  • Duration: 00:44:06

References

Podcast Info

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hi there, I’m Ben Pearce and welcome to the Tech World Human Skills Podcast.

[00:00:04] Now, if you’re a leader in tech, I am hosting a free workshop that you need to be on.

[00:00:09] How to maximise your team’s influence and impact.

[00:00:12] I’ll cover the tools and knowledge you need to raise the game of your team.

[00:00:16] It’s free on December 5th at 4pm GMT, 11am Eastern, 8 Pacific.

[00:00:21] Sign up at elevatedu.live slash savemyspot.

[00:00:24] Hey folks, and welcome to the Tech World Human Skills Podcast.

[00:00:32] I don’t mind saying, it’s another great topic today.

[00:00:36] Today, we’re talking about feedback.

[00:00:38] How to give it, how to receive it.

[00:00:42] It is such a valuable skill, but so many people are so bad at it.

[00:00:48] So, to help us today, we have an expert on the subject.

[00:00:51] She has helped people in the tech world.

[00:00:54] With their personal development at so many companies.

[00:00:57] She’s been a trainer, run learning and development departments.

[00:01:01] And enabled thousands of people in her career.

[00:01:04] So, please welcome People Development Manager at Unilei, Nicola Slater.

[00:01:12] Hello Ben, thanks for having me on.

[00:01:14] I think, when you say Tech World Human Skills, that feels like a summary of my career.

[00:01:20] I actually started out as a…

[00:01:24] I was a small computer programmers developer, back in the mid 90s, did that for a few years.

[00:01:30] Took a sideways shift, gently into sort of tech training and then kind of went from there.

[00:01:35] So, what I do now, compared to what I do then, really different, but it all kind of makes sense if you look at it.

[00:01:41] But yeah, so for the last 20 years or so, I’ve been concentrating on the people development side, rather than the code development side.

[00:01:49] So, yeah.

[00:01:50] Well, it is brilliant to have you with us.

[00:01:52] So, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:01:54] And to talk about a topic, which I think is really important, and I’ve been wanting to do an episode on this for ages.

[00:02:00] And we were talking a few months ago, and we were talking about how you were about to run a course in the company that you’re working at, Unilei, on feedback.

[00:02:11] And I was like, brilliant, because I’ve been wanting to do this episode for ages.

[00:02:16] You’re an expert in it.

[00:02:18] Let’s get you on.

[00:02:19] And so, I’m so pleased that we can talk about it today.

[00:02:23] Because in my mind…

[00:02:24] I think it’s a really important skill, and as I said right at the beginning, and it’s something that I think, I’ve certainly seen some really bad examples of how to do it.

[00:02:37] So, enough from me, let me hand over to you, why is giving feedback so important?

[00:02:43] I think feedback in general is, I mean, for you as a person who might get some feedback, it’s absolutely sort of rocket fuel for your performance, your career.

[00:02:53] Yeah.

[00:02:54] Your development, right?

[00:02:56] So, being able to give it to other people, it is super important to kind of help them grow, develop, be the best they can be.

[00:03:03] You know, the vast majority of people want to be the best they can be at work.

[00:03:07] So, being able to give feedback in a positive way that helps people with their growth is one of the most fulfilling, kind, generous things you can do in the workplace, really.

[00:03:20] I think it’s that selfless thing of sort of saying…

[00:03:24] Here’s a gift, almost, to help you kind of grow, and, you know, setting aside the practicalities of, it helps deadlines get met, and people kind of help businesses perform as well, really.

[00:03:35] So, really selfishly, as an individual, like, we want feedback, don’t we?

[00:03:41] Because we want to get better, we want to be the best that we can be, and so selfishly, we want people to give us tips and tricks on how we can get better, and all of that kind of stuff.

[00:03:48] But actually, then there’s a bit of an emotional bit that goes on.

[00:03:50] Yeah.

[00:03:51] Yeah.

[00:03:51] Yeah.

[00:03:52] Yeah.

[00:03:52] Yeah.

[00:03:53] Yeah.

[00:03:53] Yeah.

[00:03:54] Yeah.

[00:03:54] That goes with receiving people, where people say, logically, I do want to get feedback, and I completely agree with all those things, as long as people, you know, don’t make it awkward, don’t, you know, don’t upset me, you know, and so, actually, there’s a part of you really want to receive feedback at a logical level, but then maybe hate receiving feedback at an emotional level.

[00:04:16] So, maybe people are battling with that as a receiver of feedback, and then maybe battle a little bit.

[00:04:23] Because they’re thinking, right, now I need to be the giver of feedback, and actually, it’s going to get me in this world now, where there’s going to be this emotional reaction, and it’s going to be horrible, and do I just need that stress in my life?

[00:04:34] So, people just then don’t do it as much as perhaps they should.

[00:04:39] I think the phrase, can I give you some feedback, for a lot of people, sends chills down their spine, right?

[00:04:47] Because they don’t hear, oh, I’m going to get some feedback.

[00:04:49] They hear, I’m going to get told off, or I’m going to get criticised, right?

[00:04:53] So, that can be quite scary to hear, and, you know, I’m really happy to pick up on ways people can make that easier on themselves.

[00:04:59] But I think because we often feel that ourselves, we don’t want to be the person saying that phrase either, right?

[00:05:06] Can I give you some feedback?

[00:05:08] Because we’re scared we’re going to wreck the relationship, we’re going to upset the person.

[00:05:12] I know when I kind of give this as a course, we do a section on dealing with difficult reactions, and that’s often one of the things that really worries people.

[00:05:20] What if the person pushes back or cries?

[00:05:23] Or gets angry, or all of that kind of stuff.

[00:05:27] And so, there’s that fear, is it going to escalate?

[00:05:29] But even just the basic fear of, how do I say this without wrecking our relationship?

[00:05:34] And that goes for whether it’s line manager direct report, or whether it’s peer-to-peer, or even the other way around, right?

[00:05:40] Sometimes we want to give feedback upwards in the line.

[00:05:43] So, I think that phrase, can I give you some feedback, is one that I generally tend to wreck.

[00:05:49] If you can avoid using that phrase, avoid using that phrase.

[00:05:52] Can we have a chat about, tell me about, you know, that still opens the conversation, just without raising the hackles and the cortisol and all that kind of stuff that’s going on in people’s heads, really.

[00:06:06] Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:07] So, as we start, you know, start to dig into this, and we’ll get to the how in a bit, but, you know, I guess what we’re saying is that the act of giving feedback comes from a place of kindness, comes from a pace of compassion.

[00:06:21] So, if I was walking around.

[00:06:22] With my fly’s undone, or, you know, or my shirt was on, my blouse was undone, you know, whatever it is.

[00:06:30] You’d want somebody to tell you that, wouldn’t you?

[00:06:32] Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:33] And I think what you often see in business is people will tell everybody else that, but you, right?

[00:06:39] Right.

[00:06:39] So, they’ll spend a little while, for want of a better word, bitching behind you about, oh, so-and-so, so rude in that meeting, or so-and-so terrible at their presentations.

[00:06:49] Yeah.

[00:06:50] And because it’s almost easier to tell somebody else.

[00:06:52] About it than it is them.

[00:06:53] And I think, you know, one of the models I really like in this area is Radical Candor, which is, it’s a book and a bit of a movement.

[00:07:02] There’s a website by a lady called Kim Scott.

[00:07:03] She’s got a tech background, so it’s really interesting.

[00:07:06] And she sort of divides management in general and feedback specifically into sort of four quadrants, depending on how honest you are, but how caring you are as well.

[00:07:17] And for her, the great feedback, the Radical Candor, although she now calls it Compassionate Candor.

[00:07:22] It comes from a place where you’re both honest and caring.

[00:07:26] And I think sometimes we back away from the honest because we think they’re opposites of each other.

[00:07:34] Well, I’m either honest or I’m caring.

[00:07:36] And actually, the trick is to be honest and caring.

[00:07:39] Yeah.

[00:07:39] And I think people either get really soft and so lose the honesty.

[00:07:45] You will get some people around who are in what I call the Simon Cowell quadrant, which she officially calls Obnoxiousness.

[00:07:52] Or Obnoxious Aggression, which is where you’re honest but not caring.

[00:07:56] OK.

[00:07:56] Right.

[00:07:57] So sometimes, I don’t know if you’ve ever encountered somebody like that.

[00:08:00] Tell it like it is.

[00:08:01] Tell it like it is.

[00:08:02] And they’re quite proud of that.

[00:08:04] Yeah.

[00:08:04] Yeah.

[00:08:05] That can affect relationships, right?

[00:08:07] Yeah.

[00:08:08] And that can be as bad as it is good.

[00:08:11] You know, it can be great that that honesty has been shared and it could be very relevant and right, for whatever the word right means.

[00:08:17] But the way it’s delivered can cause such damage that perhaps it’s not onboarded or not taken seriously.

[00:08:23] I mean, there is something to be said for that approach only in that it’s giving the person that information they need to improve or get better.

[00:08:32] It’s just done in a way that is probably going to send them on a bit of a down before they can act on that feedback.

[00:08:38] So the trick is to give that honesty, but in a caring way.

[00:08:43] And I think one of the problems is we often define caring as not upsetting.

[00:08:51] Yeah.

[00:08:51] And actually, if we redefine what…

[00:08:52] What caring means, caring is about helping that person be the best they can be or to improve their performance.

[00:08:58] And so a lot of the times when we soften up the message or we avoid the message full stop, we’re actually worrying about our own feelings rather than what’s great for them, really.

[00:09:10] And that’s for me why this is such an important subject, because it’s about being a great human.

[00:09:16] Yeah.

[00:09:16] And I think that’s really important.

[00:09:17] You know, for me, that’s one of my really important values.

[00:09:21] It’s the motto of my kids’ school.

[00:09:22] It’s the motto of my kids’ school, which is lovely, like kindness matters.

[00:09:24] And so that is a really good thing.

[00:09:27] But then I also want to get results, right?

[00:09:29] Like I want to do good stuff and I want us to achieve great things and do brilliant stuff, which means high performance.

[00:09:37] You know, that means we need to get stuff done well and to a standard.

[00:09:40] And so to get to be in that quadrant where we can say, hey, I’m trying to be the best human I can be, the kindest I can be, and also try and help you be the best we can be so that we can achieve this great thing that we need to do.

[00:09:52] If you can get that right, they are like the best leaders for me, where you’ve got people that can do that really effectively.

[00:10:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:10:00] And I think, you know, I’ve had leaders as well who, you know, I will tell a story about one time where I messed up big style at work.

[00:10:11] And the feedback was basically, OK, this is how we might actually deal with the situation at hand.

[00:10:18] But what did you learn?

[00:10:20] Yeah.

[00:10:21] Right?

[00:10:21] Brilliant.

[00:10:22] Because I keep that lesson with me today.

[00:10:24] What did I learn from that mess up?

[00:10:26] OK, I’ll never do that again.

[00:10:28] And I think just that challenge, he didn’t tell me off, but the feedback was just, OK, what could you do differently next time?

[00:10:34] And I think it was great that he raised that.

[00:10:38] It would have been very easy to just gloss over it.

[00:10:40] But just, you know, that gentle push, what could you do differently, was a really nice way of showing me he’d noticed I’d messed up.

[00:10:51] But at the same time, getting a really positive.

[00:10:52] Lesson out of it for, you know, if we want, I hired a third party who turned out not to be a great third party to work with, and it’s taught me some some lessons.

[00:11:03] Right.

[00:11:04] So I think I think it’s it’s good to challenge.

[00:11:08] I think going back to your child’s school, if kindness matters.

[00:11:12] But if Johnny’s running around the playground pulling all the girls pigtails, is it kindness not to tell Johnny off because we’ll upset him?

[00:11:19] Or is it kind of say, actually, that’s really inappropriate.

[00:11:22] And you’ll get on.

[00:11:22] Much better with those girls if you’re nice and kind and civilized to them than if you’re running around, you know, and it’s that definition of kindness.

[00:11:29] So it’s finding a way to give the feedback in a way that has the positive effects, but still challenges poor performance, underperformance, performance that could be better, behavior that could be better, whatever it is.

[00:11:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:11:43] Yeah.

[00:11:44] So I think this is a brilliant topic.

[00:11:46] And it’s also really interesting that I think this is a great skill.

[00:11:49] It’s not just for people managers.

[00:11:52] I think.

[00:11:52] It’s brilliant to be able to have these conversations with peers like you talked about managing up, managing down, managing left, you know, to be able to have these kind of honest conversations.

[00:12:01] It’s not just a people manager skill.

[00:12:03] And actually, I’ve seen some people managers awful at this.

[00:12:06] So it’s also a great skill to reinvest in and refresh if you’re a people manager as well.

[00:12:12] Yeah, I mean, I gave this course a couple of times two weeks ago.

[00:12:16] I was in our New York office for the week.

[00:12:18] So I gave it kind of an open course to the population there.

[00:12:22] And the vast majority of people in that room were not line managers.

[00:12:26] So there we were very much talking about the peer to peer stuff.

[00:12:28] You know, they collaborate with other departments within Unilever.

[00:12:31] So there’s there’s work that’s handed over or behavior and stuff like that.

[00:12:34] So we talk very much on that kind of that level.

[00:12:37] And then I also gave it to the to the C-suite at Unilever.

[00:12:40] So that was very much the leadership level.

[00:12:43] And then obviously they have slightly different challenges and slightly different angles on it.

[00:12:48] So the message is still the same.

[00:12:50] The examples are a little bit different.

[00:12:52] But in terms of being able to talk to your colleague who’s perhaps missed the deadline or done a piece of work that perhaps isn’t quite up to scratch or has maybe given you a handover document that isn’t quite where it is, it is still kind to them to give them that feedback.

[00:13:11] And again, you know, in a culture where you’ve got a company culture that’s open to that, then again, that’s still valuable feedback, whoever it comes from, really.

[00:13:20] Well, let’s talk about that.

[00:13:21] Yeah.

[00:13:21] Yeah.

[00:13:21] Let’s let’s dig into it, because anybody that knows me knows I love a good framework.

[00:13:26] I love a way to sort of somewhere to hang my thoughts so that when I’m I’m suddenly in this situation where I need to give some feedback, I want to do some feedback.

[00:13:36] Right.

[00:13:36] This is a place I can start.

[00:13:38] Now, I might need to modify it.

[00:13:39] I might need to change it.

[00:13:40] I might need to improvise in the moment.

[00:13:42] But it’s a place for me to start.

[00:13:44] And I believe you’ve got a brilliant model to share with us on on how to practically give this feedback.

[00:13:50] I, too, love a good framework.

[00:13:52] I will share several, but also working in learning and development.

[00:13:56] I love a good acronym.

[00:13:57] OK, we can’t if we can’t shoehorn things into an acronym, by God, we’ll do our best.

[00:14:02] Right.

[00:14:03] So you’ll see this framework called lots of lots of different things, but it all boils down to the same thing.

[00:14:08] So I call it it’s called the coin framework.

[00:14:11] C-O-I-N, cheesy.

[00:14:13] I’m giving you the gift of feedback.

[00:14:15] It’s a coin.

[00:14:16] Right.

[00:14:16] It’s a gold coin.

[00:14:17] Nice and cheesy.

[00:14:18] And so basically, it’s.

[00:14:20] OK.

[00:14:20] The C is for context.

[00:14:22] So you start the conversation by talking what you want to talk about.

[00:14:26] The O is what you’ve observed.

[00:14:28] So observed examples.

[00:14:30] And I would say this is almost one of the key things when you’re giving feedback.

[00:14:34] And this is whether it’s what’s now called developmental feedback, critical feedback, whatever you want to call it, or praise.

[00:14:41] Actually, the more specific you can be, the more likely it is to land well with the recipient, because they’ll know exactly what good looks like, what you’re

[00:14:50] talking about.

[00:14:51] But also, it does make it harder for them to push back or get defensive.

[00:14:55] So the more observed examples you can have, or at least have one, if you’ve got no clear observed examples, it is not the right time to give feedback.

[00:15:05] So if you’re thinking of giving somebody feedback and just sort of saying you’re not assertive enough in team meetings or your presentation skills need to get better.

[00:15:13] Yeah, that’s not going to work, right?

[00:15:15] That’s too soft, too fluffy, too woolly.

[00:15:18] What you need to be able to say is I’ve noticed.

[00:15:20] In the last three client meetings that you haven’t spoken up, you know, you’ve got a specific thing there to call on.

[00:15:26] Or I noticed that in that presentation, you um and ah to an extent where it’s distracting, right?

[00:15:34] So again, it’s that specific observed example.

[00:15:36] So I think the O is really important.

[00:15:39] The I is for impact.

[00:15:42] What difference does it make?

[00:15:43] Right, the behaviour or the performance that you’re what difference does that make?

[00:15:47] And I think that’s another one to really be aware of when you’re

[00:15:50] preparing to give your feedback, because sometimes there isn’t an impact.

[00:15:55] Something I’ve seen sometimes, particularly in the line manager relationship, is they’ll give feedback just because somebody is doing something in a different way from they would do it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad way.

[00:16:07] It’s just not their way.

[00:16:08] So again, if you sit and think about what is the impact of that, well, actually still got done.

[00:16:13] It still got done.

[00:16:13] Well, maybe I should just sit with my discomfort that they’re not my clone.

[00:16:19] Yeah.

[00:16:19] Uh, and crack on with it.

[00:16:21] So again, the impact is, is handy to, to really pay attention to.

[00:16:25] And then N is for next step.

[00:16:27] So what you need to see differently or what needs to change going forward.

[00:16:31] So, um, I think the coin model’s great.

[00:16:35] Um, I have some reservations with using it as a way to structure the conversation.

[00:16:41] Okay.

[00:16:42] So, so just to refresh, so see context.

[00:16:45] So just, just really quickly in a sort of sentence.

[00:16:47] So see context, what does, what does context mean?

[00:16:50] So that, that is the thing you want to talk about.

[00:16:53] So it might be, can I give you some feedback about this morning’s team meeting?

[00:16:56] Or can I give you some feedback about yesterday’s presentation?

[00:16:59] So see context, this is the context we were in.

[00:17:02] Oh, observation.

[00:17:03] This is the behavior I observed.

[00:17:06] Yeah.

[00:17:06] I impact, this is the impact it had.

[00:17:09] And then the end next steps, therefore do this thing, you know, do this differently.

[00:17:14] Think about this in, in, in a different way.

[00:17:17] Absolutely.

[00:17:17] That’s a lovely, but, but interesting.

[00:17:19] So that’s a.

[00:17:19] Lovely way to think about it, but then you started to say before I rudely

[00:17:23] interrupted you, but that’s not how you’d structure the conversation.

[00:17:26] So how would you then structure that conversation?

[00:17:29] So if you give, if I give you an example, say for example, I’m in a team meeting, I’m,

[00:17:33] I’m managing a team and I noticed one of my team, Jane for want of a better name,

[00:17:39] uh, is on her mobile phone all the way through that team meeting.

[00:17:42] Okay.

[00:17:42] Right.

[00:17:43] So after the team meeting, if I go to her and say, Jane, here’s my context.

[00:17:46] Can I talk to you about the team meeting?

[00:17:48] I noticed you were on your.

[00:17:49] Phone all the way through that team meeting.

[00:17:52] It made it look like you weren’t listening.

[00:17:53] I think you missed some valuable information.

[00:17:55] It also looked a bit rude and disrespectful.

[00:17:57] So there’s my eye.

[00:17:59] So next time I’d like you to keep your phone away.

[00:18:03] I’ve delivered the feedback and I’ve used the coin model.

[00:18:07] It does feel a little bit.

[00:18:09] I’m telling you off.

[00:18:10] I’m wagging my finger at you.

[00:18:13] So what I would always recommend if you can, we’ll talk in a set and there’s some

[00:18:17] odd situations where you’ve got to go in like that, right?

[00:18:19] Somebody.

[00:18:19] Turns up to work with no trousers on, you’re not going to sit and have any

[00:18:22] kind of conversation and exploration.

[00:18:25] You’re going to be like, you’ve got no trousers on, go home and put some trousers

[00:18:28] on it.

[00:18:28] Right.

[00:18:29] Uh, but if I instead change it and say, Jane, can I have a quick chat about the

[00:18:34] team meeting?

[00:18:36] And I might want to put my observation there.

[00:18:38] I noticed you’re on your phone a lot, but instead of then going into, is everything

[00:18:42] okay?

[00:18:43] What’s going on?

[00:18:44] Talk to me about that.

[00:18:45] Or even just really loosely, Jane, talk to me about the team meeting this morning.

[00:18:49] Is everything okay?

[00:18:49] A lot of times when you’re giving feedback, people know what’s coming, so

[00:18:53] there’s no need to lay it out, right?

[00:18:55] That’s just patronizing.

[00:18:57] Yeah.

[00:18:57] But also I think, I think making it a conversation like that, a takes away the

[00:19:01] fear of the, can I give you some feedback, which is scary on both ends and also opens

[00:19:07] it up to being a problem solving conversation rather than a me telling you off.

[00:19:13] I mean, why could Jane have been on her phone?

[00:19:15] Yeah.

[00:19:16] All kinds of really important issues.

[00:19:17] Personal work.

[00:19:19] Yeah.

[00:19:19] Could be.

[00:19:19] It could be a million reasons why she had to be on that phone call.

[00:19:23] So equally, there could be a million reasons why she shouldn’t have been on that phone call

[00:19:26] and didn’t need to be on that phone call.

[00:19:28] Exactly.

[00:19:28] That’s that exercise in curiosity, isn’t it?

[00:19:31] Really?

[00:19:31] Yes, it’s exactly that, you know, it could have been my child’s nursery texted and I

[00:19:36] needed to find some care to go and pick my kid up.

[00:19:39] Yeah.

[00:19:39] Um, fine.

[00:19:40] Okay, great.

[00:19:40] Is there anything else you need?

[00:19:41] And you’ve suddenly looked like the most caring manager in the world and great, you know,

[00:19:44] it’s not a big issue and it’s not going to happen again.

[00:19:47] It could be.

[00:19:48] I had a really important mess.

[00:19:49] Email from a client and I was just sorting that out in which case it might be okay, fine.

[00:19:55] Or it might be actually, let’s have a chat about, um, priorities.

[00:19:59] I’d really like in the team meeting for you to be focused on the team meeting and you

[00:20:03] can pick up with the client afterwards.

[00:20:04] Yeah.

[00:20:05] Yeah.

[00:20:05] It might be, I hate that meeting.

[00:20:08] I don’t know why I always get invited to it.

[00:20:09] I’ve got nothing to contribute.

[00:20:11] I’ve got nothing to gain from it.

[00:20:12] And again, different conversation, but you’ve opened up that conversation or it could be

[00:20:16] that Jane just goes, sorry, won’t do it again.

[00:20:19] Yeah, right.

[00:20:20] They’re all different conversations, but you’ve understood a bit more about Jane and her

[00:20:24] motivations and what’s going on in that situation.

[00:20:27] Okay.

[00:20:29] So a couple of things.

[00:20:30] Um, so maybe one thing I’m interested in is the idea of feedback in the moment versus

[00:20:38] waiting for feedback versus first strike, second strike, third strike feedback.

[00:20:44] You know, when do you start to mention it?

[00:20:47] When do you start to give?

[00:20:49] This feedback?

[00:20:52] Uh, I’ll tell a story.

[00:20:54] I said at the beginning that I used to work in tech and, uh, I’d started out writing code.

[00:20:59] I don’t know why for those listening, you won’t see me, but I’m doing the typing thing

[00:21:02] with my fingers because that’s what you do when you write code.

[00:21:05] Right.

[00:21:06] Um, I started out writing code, moved into business analysis, and then I became an it

[00:21:11] project manager and I was working for a huge organization doing a SAP implementation.

[00:21:18] Uh, I wasn’t particularly.

[00:21:19] Enjoying it.

[00:21:19] It had been a career move that probably I was starting to realize maybe wasn’t for me.

[00:21:24] Um, but you know, cracking on doing my best, all of that kind of stuff, nobody had said anything.

[00:21:32] So there was just this sense of, I’m not sure this is for me.

[00:21:34] And then I went to my annual review year end review, uh, welcomed into the room.

[00:21:40] Hello, Nicholas, sit down.

[00:21:41] Uh, you’re getting a 0% pay rise, a 0% bonus.

[00:21:45] Uh, we are demoting you a grade and, uh,

[00:21:49] you are top of our list for head count cuts.

[00:21:51] If we’re asked to make any head count cuts, because you’re not doing very well.

[00:21:56] Uh, don’t wait that long.

[00:21:59] Don’t wait that long.

[00:22:01] So that was a year.

[00:22:02] Yeah.

[00:22:02] That was a year.

[00:22:02] That was like everything saved up and the trigger pulled at the end of it was saved

[00:22:07] up and trigger pulled.

[00:22:08] And it was such a shock to hear.

[00:22:10] And I think my frustration now, obviously the story ended happily ever after it was

[00:22:14] in that organization that I made the switch into L and D.

[00:22:18] So it all turned out.

[00:22:19] Fine.

[00:22:19] Right.

[00:22:19] Which is why I can tell the story because it’s kind of funny.

[00:22:22] It wasn’t very funny at the time.

[00:22:24] Um, but it was a shock to hear and it, it, it becomes such a big thing by the time it

[00:22:29] was even tackled.

[00:22:31] And I think had you tackled it small, had it been tackled small, there would have

[00:22:36] probably been a point fairly early on where the conversation would have been.

[00:22:39] I’m not enjoying this.

[00:22:40] Can I go back to writing code please?

[00:22:42] Yeah.

[00:22:43] Right.

[00:22:43] Which would have allowed them to put somebody on the project who could do that

[00:22:47] role.

[00:22:47] It would have allowed me.

[00:22:49] A career tip back into what I was good at.

[00:22:53] Um, and instead, and I see this sometimes, you know, now I’m part of people, teams

[00:22:59] and HR teams, and you sometimes hear anecdotally that, that people will steer

[00:23:05] away from feedback for so long and then it becomes like a PIP issue or a serious

[00:23:11] issue and it’s like, well, HR will deal with it now.

[00:23:14] I don’t even have to have the difficult conversation.

[00:23:16] I’ll just give it to HR.

[00:23:16] And of course, HR, if they’ve got any.

[00:23:19] Anything about them will push that right back.

[00:23:21] Um, so I think, I think that’s an extreme example.

[00:23:24] I think on a day to day basis, um, I’ve got another free framework for you, Ben, uh, which

[00:23:30] is the accountability dial by a chap called Jonathan Raymond.

[00:23:34] Okay.

[00:23:35] And I love the accountability dial and having discovered it myself, I use it a lot, but

[00:23:39] it also goes down very well when I tell other people, and this is a framework for when you

[00:23:44] go in, but how, uh, hard your message is.

[00:23:48] Yeah.

[00:23:49] When you go in.

[00:23:50] So there, the recommendation with that is go in the first time.

[00:23:54] So when we’ve seen Jane on her phone in the team meeting, don’t say, oh, well, it’s

[00:23:59] been a one-off.

[00:24:00] Let’s see if it happens again.

[00:24:01] And then let’s see if it happens again, because people will wait for the second and then they’ll

[00:24:05] wait for the third and then they’ll wait for the fourth.

[00:24:08] And it’s like, well, how can I tackle it now?

[00:24:11] Whereas if you go in the first time, but that really gentle light conversation, how is

[00:24:15] everything, what can I do about this?

[00:24:17] Somebody misses a deadline.

[00:24:18] Hey, I noticed, uh, you were due to get this to me at the end of yesterday.

[00:24:21] It’s now lunchtime.

[00:24:23] Anything I can help with is everything.

[00:24:24] Okay.

[00:24:26] What can I do to help you get this on time?

[00:24:28] Next time going really light, but the first time, and then that accountability dial framework

[00:24:34] basically says first time, it might well fix the problem because you’re problem solving

[00:24:40] second time, you make it a slightly bigger deal, but you’re still problem solving third

[00:24:44] time gets a meeting of its own to discuss.

[00:24:47] And then as you.

[00:24:48] Move forward and you, and nothing changes, then you can start talking about things like

[00:24:52] consequences, what’s going to happen if nothing changes, which might be, we need to pull you

[00:24:57] off the project, but it might also be, let’s put you on a training course.

[00:25:02] Let’s give you a mentor, whatever it is.

[00:25:05] Yeah.

[00:25:05] So I think, I think I really liked that accountability dial model because it takes

[00:25:09] away that uncertainty.

[00:25:12] Should I tackle it?

[00:25:13] And how should I tackle it?

[00:25:16] It says go in small, but light.

[00:25:18] But then also get to a point where you’re going to set boundaries.

[00:25:22] Yeah.

[00:25:22] Because again, one of the other things that happens is if we don’t see change, we still

[00:25:26] just keep letting it go and keep letting it go.

[00:25:29] And then the people around us are like, well, they’re getting away with it.

[00:25:33] Why shouldn’t I start getting away with it?

[00:25:35] So it’s nipping the bud early, isn’t it?

[00:25:37] That that that’s the thing now.

[00:25:39] Now I do remember years ago, there must’ve been a book that come out.

[00:25:43] I can’t, I can’t, I can’t remember, but it certainly was very much came in fashion for a while.

[00:25:48] And I think it’s a good example of coaching in the moment.

[00:25:52] So literally as the thing is happening, you give the feedback there and then.

[00:25:58] So if we’re going back to our phone in the team meeting example, I’m calling it out there

[00:26:04] and then feedback in the moment.

[00:26:06] What are your thoughts on that approach?

[00:26:10] I mean, I think that works just as well, right?

[00:26:12] If, if in that meeting I was able to say, Jane, is everything okay?

[00:26:17] Yeah.

[00:26:17] Yeah.

[00:26:17] Yeah.

[00:26:17] Yeah.

[00:26:17] Yeah.

[00:26:17] Yeah.

[00:26:18] Yeah.

[00:26:18] And I think in the moment, that’s great.

[00:26:19] The trouble you’ve got with coaching in the moment is that there’s a saying, um,

[00:26:24] criticize in private praise in public.

[00:26:27] So in that team meeting, the issue you’ve got is if you’re calling it out in public,

[00:26:32] cause there’s other people in the meeting, you might want to be a bit wary of that.

[00:26:35] Yeah.

[00:26:36] And, and I, do you know, I’m, that’s interesting.

[00:26:38] I hadn’t heard that, but I, I think I really agree with you there because I think, you know,

[00:26:44] I think it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s,

[00:26:48] I think if it’s an emergency bit of feedback, like so-and-so hasn’t got his trousers on, right.

[00:26:52] We need to give that like now.

[00:26:54] Right.

[00:26:54] There is a, there is a thing, there’s a situation that we need to get on top of now.

[00:27:00] Um, but if not, it it’s very much an emotional reaction from me as the giver.

[00:27:06] So I’ve seen something, had an emotional reaction to it.

[00:27:09] And instantly I’ve not gone and thought about it.

[00:27:12] I’ve not gone on thought through the impact thought through the coin model, that kind

[00:27:15] of stuff, I’ve literally then gone back in.

[00:27:17] and and often i’ve sort of i think it can escalate the situation a little bit because now they have

[00:27:23] an emotional reaction and now we’re butting heads over an emotional reaction in front of lots of

[00:27:28] people perhaps yeah and maybe that’s not a nipping it in the bud maybe that’s an escalate an undue

[00:27:34] escalation i don’t know i think i think that’s that’s a really valid point ben i think you know

[00:27:39] often we talk about give it as soon as you can so it might be that we talk to jane straight after

[00:27:44] the meeting rather than in the meeting but again like you say if it’s if it’s stirred up something

[00:27:49] within me maybe it’s a bugbear that i have i hate lateness and she’s turned up late or you know

[00:27:54] something’s happened you’ve got to calm down yourself and like you say a bit of rehearsal

[00:27:58] a bit of planning a bit of how am i going to phrase this what is my impact what is my observations

[00:28:03] but there’s a difference between maybe picking up that day or the next day and leaving it for

[00:28:10] three weeks until the next team meeting and then seeing whether it happens again

[00:28:13] it depends

[00:28:14] why you’re pausing i think is is key there really brilliant so that’s the accountability dial start

[00:28:20] slow uh quickly nip it in the bud maybe not in the moment depending on where we are and then dial

[00:28:27] that up you know and give that feedback now there is another classic one that comes out all the time

[00:28:33] you know and i’m gonna put the explicit filter on this podcast because it’s it’s it is the shit

[00:28:39] sandwich right yeah can you unpack your thoughts and so that is

[00:28:44] is praise critique pray yeah can you unpack your thoughts on what you think of that approach

[00:28:52] i think i think the thing with the the shit sandwich is if i think back to my early career

[00:28:57] we are talking late 90s here very different time uh that was how we were recommended to do it

[00:29:02] um so i’m trying gently my own little personal way to get everybody to shift away from that and i

[00:29:08] think there is a shift away from that and i think there’s a couple of problems with it right um

[00:29:12] you’ll get some people who only hear about it and they’ll say oh my god i’m not going to do it

[00:29:14] and they’ll say oh my god i’m not going to do it

[00:29:14] and they’ll say oh my god i’m not going to do it

[00:29:15] and they’ll say oh my god i’m not going to do it

[00:29:15] the the bread uh which is you know hey i really love the energy you brought to that team meeting

[00:29:21] um your slides were a bit complicated it was a bit hard to understand your message

[00:29:25] um but you clearly were ready to answer all the questions and all that right we’ve got praise we’ve

[00:29:29] got criticism we’ve got praise there are some people who won’t hear the criticism because it’s

[00:29:34] been outweighed by the praise and also you’ve finished with the praise but there will be more

[00:29:39] people who do it the other way around and only hear the criticism

[00:29:44] and are so aware of the model that they think that the outside bits the praise is only there

[00:29:51] to allow the person to deliver the bit in in the middle okay right so they’re to coin a phrase

[00:29:57] they’re waiting for the shoe to drop when you say oh i love the energy you brought to that meeting

[00:30:00] and everything it’s like yeah and it’s like that didn’t count at all let’s just get into the

[00:30:06] criticism just say what you want to say right um so i would say in a situation like that just

[00:30:10] separate them hey love the energy you brought to the meeting you were clearly prepared you

[00:30:14] could answer the the client and all that kind of stuff one bit of advice for next time maybe

[00:30:18] simplify your slides a bit because it was a bit hard to follow so maybe we can have a look at how

[00:30:23] you could work on that something like that what i’d probably start with is tell me how you think

[00:30:27] the meeting went right yeah and get it from them first but i was definitely to begin with yeah

[00:30:33] absolutely because they might turn around and go well i thought they all went well except i’m i

[00:30:37] could tell i’d lost them with my slides yeah brilliant right so you’ve done a bit of coaching

[00:30:42] there you’ve got the answer coming from there

[00:30:44] um but yeah no if we can avoid the sandwich um yeah i’d really like to phrase that one out

[00:30:50] because it it doesn’t people know what’s coming or they choose to ignore the the feedback in the

[00:30:56] middle right so yeah but but it’s an interesting point that you you brought up about the praise

[00:31:02] because often people hear the word feedback and we always think of that as a negative thing you

[00:31:08] know back to your bit right at the beginning like can i give you some feedback is a like a massive

[00:31:13] negative trick or something like that yeah i think that’s a really good point i think that’s a really

[00:31:14] good trigger what about positive you know praise this praise side of it how does that

[00:31:19] work with the coin model how how you know and how often should you be using that

[00:31:25] is there a ratio of praise critique or do you know what i mean yeah no i think i think it

[00:31:30] fits really well with the coin model to be honest with you i think again the more specific you can

[00:31:35] make it so you’ve got your observed examples i love the the slide deck or i loved um you know

[00:31:44] the way you were you managed that situation or something like that but again the more specific

[00:31:49] that you can so um bless them after i did the the c-suite version of this my my boss kind of and i

[00:31:55] will normally say don’t do feedback via team’s messaging and stuff but she was allowed right

[00:32:02] you can’t really take no don’t don’t but she she shared some positive feedback after the session

[00:32:07] and she was very specific with it and part of me was warmed by getting some positive feedback and

[00:32:12] part of me was warned that clearly a little bit of the course wasn’t going to be the same for everyone

[00:32:14] at least had sunk in so it was it was a double win for me but yeah the more specific you can

[00:32:20] make the praise but again observed examples and you know again if you can add some impact onto

[00:32:25] that yeah good work nice job i once read something that said if it’s the sort of phrase that you

[00:32:30] would say to your pet dog it’s not real praise right i don’t know how to take that some yeah

[00:32:37] sometimes a good worker i mean i’m not sure if my boss starts telling me to sit in the office then

[00:32:42] you know you’re in big trouble right um but if it’s good work nice job well done they work right

[00:32:49] sprinkled around but the stuff that will really a make you feel good but b also the thing with

[00:32:55] praise is a bit like with criticism you want people to know what they should be doing different to

[00:32:59] improve their performance with praise you want people to know what’s going really well so they

[00:33:04] can do more of it so you can reinforce that behavior exactly that because they know what you

[00:33:09] like yeah good work nice job thanks

[00:33:12] whereas loved the slide design or you know whatever it is um you know love that strategy

[00:33:20] it was really clear and it spells out a really nice three-step process um oh great okay now i

[00:33:25] know what what has been praised for me so i can do more of that i think my only caveat is where i

[00:33:30] said before criticizing private praise in public some people don’t really like their praise being

[00:33:35] public either okay okay so it can be worth again particularly if you’re in a line management

[00:33:40] situation and you’re thinking should i be doing this or should i be doing this or should i be

[00:33:42] doing this or should i call them out of the company all hands yeah just check in first whether that’s

[00:33:46] gonna work for them or or not yeah okay well i’m looking at the time and time is racing away from

[00:33:54] us as it always does i love these conversations but but there’s a bit that we haven’t talked about

[00:33:58] a bit uh much which is which is receiving feedback because often we think about right this is how i’m

[00:34:05] going to give it this is how i’m going to share my opinion this is what i thought but how about um

[00:34:12] reacting to feedback what’s if you’ve got any coaching on how to accept praise or critique or

[00:34:21] yeah absolutely so again got a lovely little acronym for you okay i’ll have you brilliant

[00:34:27] all acronyms all the time all acronyms all the time in my job uh which is act so you want to act

[00:34:33] on feedback so you want to accept it so you don’t push back on it straight away you say thank you

[00:34:40] you know you oh okay i’m really

[00:34:42] glad you shared that feedback with me you’re just going to accept it then you’re going to consider

[00:34:46] it and i’ll talk a little bit so so reasons there’s a fabulous uh there’s a lady called

[00:34:52] sheila heen h-double-e-n who does a lot of great work in this area she’s got books she’s got

[00:34:58] podcasts she’s got ted talks love her work um and and she sort of says that that there’s like

[00:35:05] three triggers that can make us want to push back on feedback so it’s it’s the um the

[00:35:12] we so s-e-e do i see that feedback so this is where the observed examples come in i i don’t agree

[00:35:19] with you or it might be the we so you might be pushing back because of the person who it’s from

[00:35:23] so is our relationship an issue or there’s the me which is your feedback is about something that you

[00:35:29] hold very dear to your sense of self so particularly if it’s a piece of feedback that goes

[00:35:32] counter to what you believe so say there’s something you’re great at you feel you’re

[00:35:37] great at and somebody gives you some critical feedback about it it can be very easy to push

[00:35:41] back so there’s a piece of feedback that goes counter to what you believe so say there’s

[00:35:42] something you’re great at and somebody gives you some critical feedback about it it can be very easy to

[00:35:42] consider is to just say is there any truth in this or am i jumping to my triggers and immediately

[00:35:49] jumping away so you might take a couple of days to consider it and then the t is for thank so even

[00:35:54] if you decide not to act on it because you don’t have to right there may well be impact and

[00:35:59] consequences but it’s your choice whether you want to you know take those or not but thanks so you

[00:36:05] accept it you consider it and then you thank the person because the thing about pushing back and

[00:36:10] not thanking and all that kind of stuff is if you become

[00:36:12] or you are the sort of person who is difficult to give feedback to people will stop giving you

[00:36:18] feedback and if feedback is one thing that helps us superpower our careers and helps us develop and

[00:36:24] grow the last thing we want is a reputation for oh i’m not giving him feedback again because it’s

[00:36:30] always a nightmare right yeah so what i often advise people is if you’ve got somebody in your

[00:36:36] area um who is difficult to give feedback to give them that feedback because it can be

[00:36:42] approached you know i you know a bit of self-awareness i know that if i’m given critical

[00:36:48] feedback that consider is a good 48 hours before i’m ready to talk about it a bit more and act on

[00:36:55] it because immediately the bottom falls out my world yeah but then i come back up so i share that

[00:37:00] with managers and people around me and then it’s like okay thanks can we put some more time in in

[00:37:05] 48 hours to chat it through because i need a bit of time just to yeah no it’s interesting i’ve not

[00:37:12] acronym before but i really like it and if i think through when i get feedback um i think

[00:37:19] i’ve sort of gone through that and i’ve learned that myself but without no without learning that

[00:37:23] and so i wish i had earlier in my career because i i know when i i rationally love the idea of

[00:37:30] feedback love the idea of getting better until i get given it and then because i’m quite an

[00:37:37] emotional person i’ll have an emotional reaction yeah and earlier in my career

[00:37:42] what that meant was i was trying to accept it but my face was telling them you know my face had gone

[00:37:49] like thunder do you know what i mean or i’m now like pushing and so actually i had to learn right

[00:37:53] that accept piece is for me means i need to put on a poker face because i’ve got an expressive face

[00:38:00] and it’s expressing my inner thoughts so i have to pop on a poker face and then i just write it

[00:38:07] down and try and say thank you you know that and then there’s that consider and that thanks because

[00:38:12] you know actually you’re right you know that was an emotional reaction i was having and you’ve got

[00:38:16] a very valid point but that’s not what my face is saying to them as they’re giving it yeah which

[00:38:21] they stop giving it and i don’t i don’t think you’re unusual in that bed i think you know i

[00:38:27] give a 90 minute course on this stuff and it goes into brain and how your brain works and all this

[00:38:31] kind of stuff but it is quite normal for people to be quite affected but how long how much that

[00:38:37] affects them and how long that affects them varies from individual to individual so if you know

[00:38:42] that you need to have a poker face and you know that doesn’t bother me great but if you know

[00:38:46] actually i’m going to need a week before we can talk about this again if you can say that to

[00:38:51] whoever’s giving you the feedback look thank you for the feedback let me work on it i’ll come back

[00:38:57] to you in a week great but yeah the poker face is is absolutely fine because what it means you

[00:39:03] know not to do is elongate that meeting for another half an hour trying to talk it through

[00:39:08] now is not the time i’ve heard you but that’s lovely

[00:39:11] but i know i need a

[00:39:12] week to digest it and then i’ll come back um because to some extent it is criticism right and

[00:39:20] and that can be hard to take it’s just softening it and knowing ourselves but one other thing i

[00:39:25] would say that can lessen that is if we get into the habit of asking for feedback yeah so rather

[00:39:31] than waiting for somebody to say can i give you some feedback and then they can give it on any

[00:39:36] topic they like at any point of the day they like and okay if you get into the habit of asking for

[00:39:42] you control the when it happens so actually today is really stressful i’m really busy i’m not in the

[00:39:47] mood i’ll do it tomorrow and i’m feeling chipper so go for it and you can control who you ask it

[00:39:54] of so it might be somebody who you really respect in that area or somebody you know does great work

[00:40:00] yeah um so again that we trigger isn’t triggered um and then the the what right so again if

[00:40:07] somebody says can i give you some feedback it might be on something that you’re not really

[00:40:10] bothered about okay i’m okay at that skill i’m not really looking to become an expert in that skill

[00:40:17] whereas i know i really want to get better at x i want to write the neatest code i can write or i

[00:40:23] want to be the best storyteller i can be or whatever so i’m going to specifically ask for

[00:40:27] feedback on that topic so i can improve my skills or you know it might be something where you’re

[00:40:33] trying to fill a performance gap i know i need to get better at x so i’m going to ask for feedback

[00:40:38] on it so yeah um it can feel

[00:40:40] a weird thing to do an easy way to make that easier is to just ask for one thing what’s one

[00:40:44] thing i could do to write neater code what’s one thing i could do to be better at storytelling

[00:40:49] easier on the person giving it easier on you to receive because you’ve not just been inundated

[00:40:53] with loads of stuff yeah and it gives you the control back then brilliant wow i’ve just looked

[00:41:01] at the clock and i think we need to wrap up i could talk about this for hours but i think we

[00:41:04] need to we need to wrap this up um so uh let’s maybe just think about key takeaways so

[00:41:10] from your perspective for everybody listening to this what would be the the key takeaways that

[00:41:15] you’d want people to take away i would say he take tk key takeaways not t takeaways um

[00:41:23] would be uh make it a conversation so rather than thinking about it as i’m going to tell

[00:41:28] you a load of stuff and then you’re going to receive it is let’s have a conversation to

[00:41:32] see if we can sort out what’s going on uh i would say hit it small but in it but fast

[00:41:40] but small whichever way you want to look at it and and then the third one is if you can get into

[00:41:44] the habit of asking for little bits of feedback as and when suits you that will also build real

[00:41:50] confidence in the people around you and a sense of safety and then it just gets easier and easier

[00:41:54] to both give and take so i would say those are my three if i could chuck in a fourth it’s use

[00:41:59] real examples both for praise and criticisms yeah love it and i love those three frameworks

[00:42:05] that you gave us so you gave us coin which was context observation impact next

[00:42:10] love that um then you talked about the accountability dial so basically nipping it

[00:42:15] in the bud and then you know quickly softly and then dialing that that up and then to receive

[00:42:22] feedback act so that was accept consider thanks wasn’t it so um exactly that yeah brilliant

[00:42:29] nicola this has been brilliant and and i hope really helpful for everybody because it’s a

[00:42:34] skill that everybody needs to get good at and that means investing a bit of time learning a bit and

[00:42:40] practicing a bit so um i hope everybody can sort of take this to heart and wouldn’t it be a

[00:42:45] wonderful world if everybody was brilliant at giving feedback and everybody was wonderful at

[00:42:49] receiving feedback um wouldn’t it and i will ask you for some feedback on how i did ben after we’ve

[00:42:54] come off the course yeah i won’t do coaching in the minute in the moment um so uh the final thing

[00:43:03] for me to say is nicola is you know uh no finally if people want to get in touch with you where how

[00:43:08] can people get in touch with you

[00:43:10] is probably the easiest way i’m very easily found nicolas later on linkedin can’t miss me

[00:43:15] yeah so if you’ve got any questions about this i’m sure nicola would love to

[00:43:18] to help spread the feedback wisdom further so now the final thing that i’d just love to say is

[00:43:26] it has been brilliant so so thank you so much for for taking the time to help us all out i enjoyed

[00:43:33] it a lot ben thank you for asking me well there we go thanks for listening remember

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