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Leitura de 93 min

Part Two: Antonio Salazar: The Smartest Fascist Dictator

Summary

This episode continues the examination of Antonio Salazar’s dictatorship in Portugal, focusing on his methods of maintaining power after establishing the Estado Novo. Salazar’s regime was characterized by extreme fiscal austerity, brutal secret police operations, and a pragmatic, non-populist approach to authoritarian rule. Unlike Hitler or Mussolini, Salazar avoided mass rallies and a cult of personality, instead focusing on economic stability and direct control over government policy.

Salazar skillfully navigated the geopolitical landscape of World War II, supporting Franco in the Spanish Civil War while ultimately helping keep Spain neutral during the wider conflict. This earned him appreciation from Winston Churchill’s government, including an honorary degree from Oxford. However, his regime’s brutality continued with torture prisons and political repression, techniques that were later refined with CIA training during the Cold War when Portugal became a key anti-communist ally in NATO.

The episode details how Salazar’s obsession with maintaining Portugal’s colonial empire in Africa became his undoing. As anti-colonial movements gained strength in the 1960s, Portugal spent 40% of its budget on military efforts to suppress independence movements in Angola, Mozambique, and other territories. Salazar embraced the pseudoscientific theory of Lusotropicalism to justify continued colonial rule, claiming Portuguese colonialism was uniquely non-racist—a claim contradicted by Portugal’s history as the largest trafficker in the transatlantic slave trade.

By the late 1960s, the colonial wars were draining Portugal’s resources and creating domestic unrest. Salazar suffered a cerebral hemorrhage in 1968, after which his subordinates pretended he was still ruling while actually managing the government themselves. He died in 1970 believing he was still in charge, and his regime was overthrown in the peaceful Carnation Revolution of 1974, which restored democracy to Portugal.

Recommendations

Articles

  • New York Times coverage of Salazar — Cited for documenting how Salazar created youth movements ‘along Hitlerian lines’ and how Portugal profited from both sides during WWII by trading with all parties and leasing the Azores as military bases.
  • Journal of African History article by Alan Smith — Referenced for analyzing how Salazar became consumed by ‘almost paranoid fear that foreigners were busily plotting to dismember the Portuguese empire’ and his colonial economic policies.
  • Journal of Music and Politics article by Annabel Duarte — Cited for documenting how Portuguese fascism tried to make a ‘political conversion’ after WWII by eliminating conspicuous aspects that identified it with defeated regimes, and for detailing torture methods used in Portuguese prisons.
  • Politico article by Dennis Redmond — Written by an AP reporter stationed in Lisbon from 1965-67, detailing how Salazar’s secret police monitored him, attempted to kidnap him, and how censorship prevented reporting on student unrest or colonial warfare.

Books

  • Works by Tom Gallagher — Referenced as Salazar’s biographer who described his ‘wary association’ with Franco’s regime and his political formula of creating a ruling alliance of conservatives, moderate liberals, and nationalist ideologues.

Music

  • Toto’s “Hold the Line” — Jokingly referenced as ‘the best song by Toto’ and compared to Salazar’s governing philosophy of maintaining stability rather than seeking expansion.
  • Toto’s “Africa” — Mentioned humorously as a song Salazar would have liked ‘unfortunately’ because ‘he likes Africa way too much,’ referencing his colonial obsessions.

Topic Timeline

  • 00:04:08 — Salazar’s early economic policies and austerity measures — After establishing his New State, Salazar implemented radical austerity programs focused on financial stability rather than prosperity. He balanced the budget through severe cuts that heavily impacted the poor and peasant classes, while gaining support from wealthy capitalists who valued economic predictability. Salazar openly stated that “the Portuguese must be treated as children” and expressed contempt for parliamentary democracy.
  • 00:12:46 — Salazar’s support for Franco in the Spanish Civil War — Salazar saw the Spanish Republic as a threat to Portuguese independence and actively supported Francisco Franco’s fascist forces. He allowed Germany and Italy to use Portuguese territory to transfer troops and materiel to Franco’s army, permitted Portuguese volunteers to fight for the fascists, and used his secret police to arrest republican sympathizers. During this period, Salazar adopted fascist trappings like youth movements and paramilitary organizations modeled after Hitler and Mussolini.
  • 00:20:27 — Salazar’s role in keeping Spain neutral during World War II — Despite his fascist sympathies, Salazar played a crucial role in preventing Franco from joining the Axis powers during World War II. He acted as an intermediary between British intelligence and Franco, negotiating backdoor deals to keep Spain out of the war. This stressful diplomatic balancing act visibly aged Salazar, but earned him significant appreciation from Winston Churchill’s government, including an honorary degree from Oxford University.
  • 00:33:24 — Post-war liberalization and subsequent crackdown — After World War II, Salazar briefly liberalized his regime, allowing political parties to organize and improving conditions in political prisons. However, as the Cold War intensified and Portugal joined NATO, he reversed these changes and launched a massive repression campaign in 1956. His government adopted Nazi-inspired laws allowing indefinite detention and began collaborating with the CIA, which trained Portuguese secret police in interrogation techniques at camps like ‘The Farm’ in Virginia.
  • 00:44:12 — CIA collaboration and advanced torture techniques — The CIA helped Salazar’s regime refine torture methods, particularly the ‘statue’ technique where prisoners were forced to hold positions for days without sleep while being subjected to auditory torture. Prisoners were played sounds of other people being tortured, protest songs, and other psychological manipulations designed to break their minds. These techniques would later influence enhanced interrogation methods used by the US after 9/11.
  • 00:50:50 — Portugal’s colonial empire and its financial burden — Portugal maintained control over extensive colonial territories in Africa, India, and Asia, which Salazar called ‘overseas provinces.’ By the 1960s, Portugal was spending 40% of its annual budget—the highest defense burden in Europe—to suppress independence movements. Despite Salazar’s reputation as a fiscal conservative, this colonial obsession created a massive financial drain with little economic benefit for Portugal itself.
  • 00:58:45 — Lusotropicalism: Portugal’s colonial justification — Salazar’s regime embraced the pseudoscientific theory of Lusotropicalism developed by Brazilian sociologist Gilberto Freire. This theory claimed Portuguese colonialism was uniquely non-racist because Portuguese colonizers had intermarried with indigenous populations. The regime used this ideology to justify maintaining colonial control while other European powers were granting independence, despite Portugal’s history as the largest trafficker in the transatlantic slave trade.
  • 01:07:48 — Colonial wars and regime collapse — In 1961, anti-colonial movements launched attacks in Angola, beginning a decade of brutal colonial wars. Salazar’s regime used images of violence against white settlers to justify military responses, while Portuguese soldiers systematically raped African women. As the wars dragged on, domestic unrest grew, and Salazar suffered a cerebral hemorrhage in 1968. His subordinates pretended he was still ruling until his death in 1970, and the regime was overthrown in the Carnation Revolution of 1974.

Episode Info

  • Podcast: Behind the Bastards
  • Author: Cool Zone Media and iHeartPodcasts
  • Category: Society & Culture History News
  • Published: 2025-07-17T09:00:00Z
  • Duration: 01:14:48

References

Podcast Info

Transcript

[00:00:00] hey everybody it’s behind the bastards the podcast that you know what it is because you’re listening

[00:00:10] to it and you’re listening to part two of our episodes on antonio salazar so you’re probably

[00:00:14] not tuning into the show for the first time going i wonder what this series is i’m gonna click on an

[00:00:20] episode about a guy i’ve never heard of that’s that’s clearly labeled as part two like no one

[00:00:25] who would do that they’re not tuning in yeah exactly exactly who would do like no no one don’t

[00:00:31] laugh sophie no it’s good yeah no i liked it that’s okay it’s okay spray the water bottle

[00:00:36] so our guest today jeff may that rhymed but i didn’t mean for it to look man i have a very

[00:00:46] rhymeable name you do you do uh it’s useful it’s like it was useful in this exactly one instance

[00:00:54] it’s a month

[00:00:55] like people love some teachers saw my name and they never stopped no no they they yeah that you

[00:01:02] can vamp on that for solid 15 minutes of what’s supposed to be math class oh it’s great um jeff

[00:01:08] may if you were jeff april we would not have had you on the show oh i get it yeah absolutely not

[00:01:14] um jeff jeff uh june maybe that that actually has a kind of nice ring to it you know yeah

[00:01:22] on the show

[00:01:25] yeah uh jeff july no it’s still alliterative but i don’t like it i don’t know why i almost

[00:01:31] dated a girl named maizey she went by may maizey may oh my god and then she quickly pumped yeah

[00:01:39] no yeah you can’t get in you can’t get too serious with that one i was like but come on

[00:01:44] this is it’s just not gonna work it’s not gonna work there’s one one reason for that yeah

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[00:03:26] when segregation was a law one mysterious black club owner charlie fitzgerald had his own rules

[00:03:34] segregation in the day integration at night it was like stepping in another world

[00:03:39] was he a businessman a criminal a hero charlie was an example of power they had to crush him

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[00:03:57] all right so we’re back and we’re talking about part two and the end of part one antonio salazar

[00:04:08] had established his new state and established a secret police force with a torture prison

[00:04:13] uh that occasionally had to deal with noise ordinance violations um in order to yeah a

[00:04:20] little loud a little loud they had to quiet it down a little bit can you just bring it a little

[00:04:24] yeah on the torture guys we love the torture prison we’re we’re we’re yimbies when it comes

[00:04:30] to torture prisons but they have to abide by like the neighborhood noise ordinances yeah yeah we

[00:04:35] have quiet hours yeah we’ve got quiet hours no no torturing after 9 p.m come on how hard is that

[00:04:40] we know this yeah um so salazar’s first actions after coming to power are all focused on returning

[00:04:47] some sort of financial stability to portugal now i don’t mean to confuse this with prosperity or

[00:04:53] even the kind of fraudulence that salazar’s first actions after coming to power are all focused on

[00:04:54] economic boom that the nazis manufactured after hitler’s return right portugal never really

[00:05:00] thrives to a massive extent during salazar’s reign it will remain per capita one of the poorest

[00:05:06] nations in europe but the economy stops cycling right where there’s these deep troughs and these

[00:05:12] recoveries it kind of stays on an even keel and even though that’s still not very good for most

[00:05:18] of the people there’s a lot more stability so first off the people with money the capitalist

[00:05:24] empire because stability means you can make predictable investments and whatnot and get

[00:05:28] predictable returns and the regular people at least aren’t dealing with these sudden drastic

[00:05:34] downturns every couple of years or whatever right and so things are a lot more stable

[00:05:39] now this allows him one of his first measures taken in office was to take and he’s you know

[00:05:46] salazar isn’t coming out he launches an austerity program a very radical cut to the bone austerity

[00:05:51] program and this is not entirely his own devising there have been a lot of people who have been

[00:05:54] recommendations the league of nations had made to portugal and he takes those recommendations

[00:05:59] and under this austerity program the poor and the peasant classes in portugal suffer mightily

[00:06:05] and again that should tell you despite a lot of the sympathies between him and you know hitler

[00:06:10] and whatnot this is not a populist movement right woodrow wilson blew it right yeah he really did

[00:06:18] the league of nations just about as big a fuck up as it could possibly have been um despite being a

[00:06:24] much cooler name than the united nations who wouldn’t rather be in a league talk about a 180

[00:06:29] on that guy huh oh boy yeah it was just like we’re not going to talk to anybody but also what if we

[00:06:33] had a justice league but we should we should have like an international order yeah so he’s able to

[00:06:39] balance the budget right which makes him popular uh among the people who are holding power you see

[00:06:44] this as the the fastest route to stability as the writer alan k smith noted this was often a brutal

[00:06:49] process for regular people quote the principles which guided him were the elimination of

[00:06:54] wastefulness the reduction of spending to a minimum and complete control over every aspect

[00:06:59] of life which involved governmental expenditure no matter how pressing their needs areas such as

[00:07:03] rural development the health services and education would have to wait until the necessary

[00:07:07] surplus was at hand so salazar is like fuck you i’m not doing anything to help people until we’ve

[00:07:15] got enough spare money to afford it right like we’re not going to go into debt just to take care

[00:07:20] of people like we’re going to cut it to the end whatever suffering the people who are in the

[00:07:24] peasantry has to make it’s necessary as long as we can kind of keep the economy and the wealthy

[00:07:30] on track right rude it’s a little rude it’s kind of a dick it’s a rudy huxtable we like to say

[00:07:35] and he’s he’s not at all he’s not even going to play at being like i’m speaking for the people

[00:07:40] i’m the representative of the people you know the people like there’s not even that kind of like

[00:07:45] that like guys right he would state directly that his philosophy of leadership was quote

[00:07:50] the portuguese must be treated as children too much too often would spoil them

[00:07:54] um he added quote i say the same thing though yeah you’re always saying that and it really

[00:07:59] pisses off our portuguese listeners people know this about me in the portuguese yeah yeah those

[00:08:04] windbags to quote from one of our other bastards uh the truth is that i am profoundly anti-parliamentarian

[00:08:10] i hate the speeches the verbosity and the flowerly meaningless interpolations the way we waste

[00:08:15] passion not around any great idea but just around futilities nothingness from the point of view of

[00:08:20] the national good so he’s very much this like look i’m not

[00:08:24] giving anybody anything but at least i’m not like grandstanding about some bullshit while failing to

[00:08:29] deliver right like i’m an i’m an asshole and i’m not you know handing you anything nice but i’m

[00:08:35] also keeping the economy from crashing right like that’s his that’s his argument for why he should

[00:08:40] stay in power and it works surprisingly well um part of why is that well he gets the credit for

[00:08:46] his economic policies and the way that they do work he’s almost invisible outside of them he is

[00:08:52] not doing mass rallies

[00:08:54] people are not marching in the streets as he like stands in a reviewing stand and gives some sort of

[00:08:59] weird little salute he invented he avoids any mass public displays right which leads to this errant

[00:09:05] belief internationally people will say that oh portugal they got so lucky they have a dictatorship

[00:09:11] without a dictator which is nonsense that’s not what’s happening he’s very much a dictator but

[00:09:17] there’s this desire especially from a lot of international like capitalist conservatives to

[00:09:22] be like oh portugal’s really figured it out

[00:09:24] they’ve got all the benefits of a hitler without having hitler you know yeah maybe we could do what

[00:09:30] they’re doing right um and that’s not the case this is that’s not an accurate way to describe

[00:09:36] salazar’s regime or any regime that’s ever existed the reality is that very few of 20 of the 20th

[00:09:42] centuries authoritarians exercised more direct control over their national economy or government

[00:09:48] policy than antonio salazar you could argue salazar is much more of a dictator in the direct

[00:09:53] literal sense that even hitler is a dictator he’s a dictator he’s a dictator he’s a dictator he’s a

[00:09:54] Hitler was right hitler is a delegator right he has his things he’s interested in he mostly

[00:10:00] lets other people handle most things in part because you can like defray blame for shit that

[00:10:05] way salazar is kind of the opposite of a lot of these guys and that he’s all about direct personal

[00:10:11] control of especially economic policy but a lot of other government policies and he doesn’t want

[00:10:16] to do the other crap right he doesn’t want to do the big reviewing stand marches he doesn’t want

[00:10:21] to do the military adventurism so it’s less

[00:10:24] accurate to say portugal is a dictatorship without a dictator and more salazar is a dictator without

[00:10:30] a cult of personality right what a waste yeah what a waste you could you could have so much

[00:10:36] more fun with it man oh my god you know hitler had his flair where’s your salazar flair come on

[00:10:41] awesome man yeah blew it tragic especially with a name as cool as salazar oh my god it’s a good

[00:10:47] name it’s a solid dictator name yeah man what a waste but it is better for political stability

[00:10:54] salazar is all about stability and this is going to be the thing that ultimately saves him

[00:11:00] where his peers get led to ruin right unlike hitler he doesn’t whatever he says about helping return

[00:11:06] portugal to greatness he’s not really interested in returning his nation to some false prelapsarian

[00:11:11] version of greatness or even erasing the humiliations of the past he wants to bring

[00:11:16] stability and then hold the line right that’s the kind of guy he is also that’s the best song by

[00:11:23] toto that is the best song by toto hold the line and salazar would have agreed with you and i think

[00:11:28] well no no seven he passes in 74 so he couldn’t have heard toto i think he would have liked africa

[00:11:32] to be 100 i think he would have liked it unfortunately his history one of his downfalls

[00:11:36] is that he likes africa way too much yeah yeah he’s just like all these other casuals that think

[00:11:42] africa is the best song by toto i know i know that’s his big problem he’s a fucking casual

[00:11:47] toto fan is what he is that’s what brings about the revolution against him is his the fact that

[00:11:52] he’s a fake toto fan and everyone knows it yeah they’re like come on man the revolution isn’t

[00:11:56] always on time no no no again no no no that’s why we brought you in jeff that’s why i get brought

[00:12:03] in for all the hottest uh hottest takes on toto current musical hits because i only know to make

[00:12:10] two jokes about toto and we already ran through them um so salazar uh he’s the only dictator kind

[00:12:18] of in this period who is going to really perfectly

[00:12:22] jink and run and like avoid kind of the different sort of dangers of this this moment in european

[00:12:29] history um the pitfalls if you will the pitfalls right like he’s never going to be an invade russia

[00:12:34] guy and he’s going to play a big role in helping his peer in spain francisco franco avoid some of

[00:12:40] these same pitfalls unfortunately um now portugal has a complex history with spain they’ve been

[00:12:46] invaded and occupied in the past you know he’s he’s super worried like every portuguese leader

[00:12:52] is going to come for portugal at some point just looking out the blinds yeah looking out the

[00:12:56] blinds being like is spain out there fuck they always are they doing out there so you’ve got

[00:13:01] this civil war that gets started in spain between these republicans and franco and salazar sees the

[00:13:07] republic which looks like it’s going to win at first as a threat to his continued independence

[00:13:11] right if the if the republic wins the war maybe they’ll come for us and then then maybe my regime

[00:13:17] is doomed and portuguese independence is doomed and salazar extends his support to

[00:13:22] right so he he backs franco during a crucial early stage in the civil war he allows germany

[00:13:27] and italy to use his territory to transfer troops and materiel to franco’s army which is a critical

[00:13:33] aspect of like how franco is able to get enough military aid to win um salazar allows portuguese

[00:13:39] volunteers to fight for the fascists in spain and he uses his secret police and security forces to

[00:13:45] raid and arrest republican sympathizers and refugees in his own territory and these are the

[00:13:52] because he’s letting italy and and germany in because he’s helping franco these are the years

[00:13:57] in which his movement most resembles the other fascist movements in europe salazar deliberately

[00:14:02] cribs from mussolini and hitler in particular per a write-up in the new york times quote he created

[00:14:07] a youth movement along hitlerian lines principally to prepare the younger people for military service

[00:14:13] and the portuguese legion which was dedicated to combating internal communism these organizations

[00:14:18] with the army proved useful in putting down a popular outbreak in lisbon just prior to world

[00:14:22] war one

[00:14:22] so not only does he kind of ally with the fascists in this period is he starts putting out these kind

[00:14:30] of like trappings of fascism where it’s like well let’s get a youth fighting movement in the street

[00:14:33] we need in addition to the military we need these these civilian combat organizations these

[00:14:39] paramilitaries that are sort of given a free pass by the police to crack down on the left and to

[00:14:45] stop them from gaining too much power and overthrowing the government to stop the communists

[00:14:48] primarily right i thought you meant fighting the youth

[00:14:52] no no no no these he is getting the fighting youth together right under his back right like that that’s

[00:14:57] his plan during this period right there’s obviously the youth who are organizing on behalf

[00:15:02] of communism and you know for a return to the republic these are the people that he’s having

[00:15:06] a secret police go after and that he’s sort of allowing these paramilitaries to uh to fight

[00:15:11] against right um now during this period pre-world war ii he’s known to keep a bust of mussolini in

[00:15:17] his office and he’ll regularly ask his hitler during the height of his power but he’s also

[00:15:22] pretty clear in his own statements about what he sees as the difference between his fascist allies

[00:15:26] and his own new state regime. Quote, now obviously our dictatorship is similar to the fascist

[00:15:33] dictatorship and its strengthening of authority and the war in which it declares on certain

[00:15:37] democratic principles and its nationalist character and its maintenance of the social order.

[00:15:41] It is different, however, in its methods of renovation. The fascist dictatorship is leaning

[00:15:45] towards a pagan Caesarism, right? And that’s what Salazar doesn’t want. For one thing,

[00:15:51] he is a Catholic and he makes an alliance with the Catholic Church, right? Where we will allow

[00:15:57] the Catholic Church, we’ll bring back a lot of these powers that had been stripped from it to

[00:16:00] provide for like the social safety net. And we’ll also institute all these laws that are very

[00:16:06] friendly to the way the Catholic Church wants things to be run. And that’s very different from

[00:16:10] like Germany, which is, you know, the Nazi regime is an anti-Catholic regime in some ways, right?

[00:16:15] They have to co-opt Catholicism, but they never are really comfortable with it because the church

[00:16:20] is another center of power. And so, you know, the Catholic Church is a Catholic church. And so,

[00:16:21] Salazar is okay with there being another center of power. As long as it helps kind of take away

[00:16:27] from his burden, he sees this as like a worthwhile thing. And he’s also just a believer in Catholicism.

[00:16:34] And so, this is why he’s very consciously like, we’ll take some things that the fascists are doing,

[00:16:39] but like, I’m not this weird kind of like pagan esoteric thing that Hitler is. Like, that seems

[00:16:45] strange to me. And I don’t want to go too far down that road because it’s a lot of work and I feel

[00:16:51] like he’s fucking in trouble, right? Yeah. He’s very smart. Yeah. It’s not hard to read the writing

[00:16:57] on the wall when someone’s being like, yeah, we should take over like the whole. Everything, yeah.

[00:17:03] Maybe we should just go over and take over the whole. Yeah, the Soviet Union, yeah. Oh,

[00:17:08] kicking the door. Yeah. Salazar’s like, that seems like a lot of work. Taking over the Soviet Union.

[00:17:13] For one thing, there’s like 30 Portuguese people. I do like the idea that he’s just so like chill

[00:17:19] with his little pocket.

[00:17:21] He’s content with what he has.

[00:17:23] It’s just like it’s a project for him. He’s just like, man, we got to get Portugal moving, man. We

[00:17:28] got to do our thing.

[00:17:30] We got to fix this up and we don’t need, he’s also, as we’ll talk about, Portugal owns a lot

[00:17:35] of Africa, right? He’s not content with a tiny amount of the world, but he doesn’t want to like

[00:17:41] expand massively. He’s trying to keep a hold on what they’ve got, right? So, he doesn’t go too far

[00:17:48] into the kind of delusions that are going to lead Hitler in.

[00:17:51] Yeah, and also, he’s not doing a racism or an anti-Semitism, is he?

[00:17:56] I mean, he’s anti-Semitic and like by arse, but it’s not like a governing principle, right?

[00:18:02] He’s 1930s anti-Semitic, which is just everything.

[00:18:05] Yeah, and in this, you know, after the war, there will be a Portuguese colonial war that’s very

[00:18:11] racist, right? But that’s not the guiding light initially of his regime. It’s more something that

[00:18:17] makes sense as time goes on and they wind up in these colonial,

[00:18:21] conflicts, like the racism kind of follows naturally. But there’s not this, he doesn’t

[00:18:25] come to power with like, we’re going to wipe out this racial group in order to fix Portugal,

[00:18:29] right? That’s never a part of his politics, you know? And so, that’s a big difference between

[00:18:33] like the Nazis, right? Now, Salazar is also, despite the fact that he is allied with Franco

[00:18:40] and really helps him take power in Spain, he never trusts Franco all that much. Tom Gallagher,

[00:18:46] his biographer, describes him as having a wary association with Franco’s regime,

[00:18:51] and while Franco restores the monarchy in Spain, Salazar never gives serious consideration towards

[00:18:57] a return to the monarchy, right? Because that’s too much of a compromise with power for him,

[00:19:01] right? Of his own power. And this political alliance that defines his regime in this period

[00:19:07] isn’t the pure result of a populist fascist party winning the struggle for power. Per Gallagher,

[00:19:12] his formula was to create a ruling alliance of conservatives, some moderate liberals,

[00:19:17] and a few nationalist ideologues, kept in being by his political agility,

[00:19:21] and guaranteed ultimately by the armed forces. So, it’s just much more of this compromise regime

[00:19:28] that he’s willing to make, because he’s just kind of, he’s a pragmatic guy. Now, this is ultimately

[00:19:33] what will save his regime and Franco’s regime. You know, at least there’s an argument that it

[00:19:37] saves Franco’s regime during the Second World War, because Franco only wins his civil war

[00:19:43] because of the help he gets from the continental fascist powers, right? Like he gets, very famously,

[00:19:48] the German Air Force is going to bomb a bunch of places,

[00:19:51] for Franco, right? And despite the fact that you would think, and Hitler had kind of expected,

[00:19:57] well, obviously, once I wind up in a big war, Spain is going to back me, right? And Franco

[00:20:03] never does this. He refuses, he doesn’t go on the side of the Allies, right? He doesn’t outright

[00:20:08] betray Germany, but he never throws his hat into the ring with the Axis once the fighting begins

[00:20:14] in earnest. The reasons for this are complex, and they have a lot to do with Portugal’s traditionally

[00:20:19] warm relationship with Great Britain, because it’s a very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

[00:20:21] because Salazar gets a lot of credit for stopping Franco from going all in on the fascists during

[00:20:27] this war, and from like outright allying with them. There’s a lot of debate as to like how

[00:20:31] much credit, how much of this was Franco just kind of recognizing this is a bigger risk than

[00:20:36] I want to take. But Salazar, at least according to one version of the story, is a major part of

[00:20:41] what keeps Franco out. And part of why Salazar is like this is even though he’s got a lot of

[00:20:45] sympathies with the fascists and a good relationship with them, he still has a good relationship with

[00:20:51] Great Britain. And so, you know, I think that’s a really, really, really, really, really, really,

[00:20:51] who had been Portugal’s traditional ally. And so Salazar never sees, even though he gets he gets

[00:20:57] lumped in as a fascist in this period, he never sees politics in simple terms of fascist versus

[00:21:02] anti-fascist, right, or even authoritarian versus democratic. Instead, he acts based on a much

[00:21:08] simpler logical rubric, which is that Portugal’s small, and we don’t have any ability to project

[00:21:14] military force in a way that matters on the level of a great power. So we have to be careful. And

[00:21:19] we can’t piss off anyone too much. And we can’t piss off anyone too much. And we can’t piss off

[00:21:21] anyone too much, right? Or overcommit or he’s not going to do he would never back the fascists

[00:21:26] militarily, because like, what am I going to do? Send soldiers to fucking Russia? I’m going to have

[00:21:31] Portuguese troops fighting in fucking Russia. What the hell is that gonna do? Right? I would,

[00:21:36] but I’m built different. You would. Yeah, but you would. I would do it. But you know,

[00:21:40] he’s probably influenced here by the fact that he just watched the Republicans burn a lot of

[00:21:44] their goodwill by getting involved in World War One. And he’s like, I’m just not gonna do that.

[00:21:48] Like, that could never be me built different.

[00:21:51] It’s actually kind of like a big and obvious thing to see is like, hey,

[00:21:54] the guy that went to school knows not to do the Hitler stuff.

[00:21:58] Yeah, yeah, seems bad. No, no, thank you.

[00:22:00] You know, like, I mean, Hitler was a soldier that that went to jail for trying to

[00:22:06] overthrow the government. Yeah.

[00:22:08] Like, this guy sucks. Yeah, this guy, this I mean, I’m gonna go out on a limb. And you know

[00:22:13] what, you can hear me out first. Sure. Hitler sucks.

[00:22:17] Not cool. Not my favorite guy. Yeah, not a cool dude.

[00:22:21] And also, but really sucks at like, knowing what to do. You know?

[00:22:25] Yeah, yeah. When to get when to, you know, when to roll the dice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But

[00:22:30] it is funny, like when you talk about like, the value of an education.

[00:22:34] And like the irony being like, you know, it’s a pretty valuable

[00:22:37] thing to learn about education is how to not get all of your people murdered.

[00:22:42] Yeah, how to avoid that shit. Yeah. And it’s also he’s also got this thing going for him where,

[00:22:47] you know, unlike in Germany, in Germany, it had been the Kaiser’s regime

[00:22:50] that had, you know, gotten every into World War Two. And in Portugal, it had been the democracy,

[00:22:58] the Republic that had made that choice, right? And so he’s just got he’s a little bit,

[00:23:04] you know, he’s gun shy, because he’s looking at the immediate past. And he’s like, Nah,

[00:23:08] fuck that shit. I’m just that could never be me, bro could never be me.

[00:23:12] Not me. Yeah. Not me. Yeah. Smart, smart man, unfortunately. So he plays a role,

[00:23:19] a lot of people will argue in keeping.

[00:23:20] Franco neutral. And there’s significant evidence that he operates with the direct help of the

[00:23:25] British government in doing this, that he is like, he’s communicating with like the British

[00:23:29] Empire’s like, diplomats because of this long standing alliance. Early in the war,

[00:23:35] British intelligence would pass on messages to Salazar, which he would take to Franco

[00:23:38] in order to negotiate backdoor deals to keep Spain out of direct involvement in the war.

[00:23:43] And this is really stressful for his hair goes gray, like because it’s the fascists are looking

[00:23:49] pretty good.

[00:23:50] Early in the war. And there’s a lot of pressure. Franco’s like, maybe we ought to get involved.

[00:23:54] We could get some shit out of this, right? And probably a lot of even people on like Franco’s

[00:23:59] side are like, why are we not backing the clear winners? And Salazar like, yeah, and he gets but

[00:24:05] he gets increasingly like, pump the brakes, homie. This ages him by like 10 or 15 years.

[00:24:10] Most people will agree he’s visibly older by the time he got the Obama treatment. He gets the

[00:24:15] he goes gray. Churchill’s people are like he started snapping at us and yelling at us.

[00:24:20] Whenever we talked to him, he always seems like he’s losing it, right? Like he is not.

[00:24:24] This is not an easy time for him. He’s not negotiating this simply, right?

[00:24:29] A pretty stressful era for World War Two.

[00:24:32] Right.

[00:24:32] Just Switzerland just looking over being like, they got something going on.

[00:24:37] How strong are our borders, right?

[00:24:39] Good luck, guys.

[00:24:40] Yeah. So his role in this is substantial enough and keeping Franco out of the war that Churchill’s

[00:24:45] government organizes three separate tokens of appreciation for Salazar’s efforts.

[00:24:50] The first in September of 1940 is a written letter of thanks directly from Winston Churchill.

[00:24:56] The second, they’re like, you know what, this this written letter of thanks isn’t enough.

[00:25:00] Let’s lean on Oxford and let’s have Oxford give Salazar an honorary degree.

[00:25:05] That’s a good move.

[00:25:06] Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s that’s smart. Yeah. Make him an honorary.

[00:25:09] That letter is kind of like, who gives a shit, really?

[00:25:11] Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

[00:25:14] Thanks, drunk.

[00:25:15] Yeah. So basically, the government leans on Oxford and Oxford is like,

[00:25:20] they send a team to Coimbra University where he had been a professor and we’re like, yeah, let’s

[00:25:24] let’s give the dictator a degree. Right. And then the third thing that the British do is they upgrade

[00:25:30] the ambassador to Portugal. Right. And this is like a very literal thing where they’re like,

[00:25:35] it had been a low ranking member of the nobility and they send a much higher ranking member of

[00:25:39] the nobility to be the ambassador. Yeah, that’s always fun.

[00:25:43] Right. Yeah. Like now you’ve got a guy who’s closer to the king who’s the ambassador because

[00:25:47] we like you that much. Right. Yeah. And they,

[00:25:49] they expand. It is a gift, but it is also a smart political strategy as well.

[00:25:55] Yeah. Make him feel that somebody doing a certain thing where there’s a potential that you could

[00:26:00] turn them into an ally. You want you want to butter them up. So you do want a higher ranking.

[00:26:05] Yeah. It’s sort of like how like the ambassador of Mexico was historically like a pretty cushy,

[00:26:11] but high ranking. Yeah. Job because it was like, there are next door neighbors and

[00:26:16] that’s really cool, I guess.

[00:26:18] Mm hmm.

[00:26:19] This is why, I mean, this is, you know, in our podcast, Jeff, when we reached out to you,

[00:26:23] we actually had the, the Duke of Windsor, you know, email you asking if you wanted to be on

[00:26:28] the podcast, which, which a lot of people don’t know that Daniel, our audio editor is the Duke

[00:26:34] of Windsor, but I was going to say we have history. And so I didn’t, I actually did not

[00:26:38] appreciate that. Yeah. Well, yeah, you do. You, you, you were in the IRA for a period of time in

[00:26:43] the nineties. Um, anyway, we’ll, we’ll talk about that later. You know, who else was in the IRA in

[00:26:48] the 1990s? I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t

[00:26:49] know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t

[00:26:50] probably HelloFresh. Yeah. Uh, hello. Almost certainly. I mean, actually that’s way too

[00:26:55] cool for HelloFresh. No, no. HelloThatcher is what it was called. Yeah. HelloThatcher. We

[00:26:59] brought a bomb. Uh, see HelloFresh, we can be mean to you or we can be nice to you, right?

[00:27:06] If you want us to make more comparisons with you in a terrorist group, but like, you know,

[00:27:11] a popular one, send us some money. Yeah. Segregation in the day.

[00:27:19] Integration at night. When segregation was the law, one mysterious Black club owner had his own

[00:27:26] rules. We didn’t worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world. Inside

[00:27:33] Charlie’s place, Black and white people danced together, but not everyone was happy about it.

[00:27:40] You saw the KKK? Yeah. They was dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie,

[00:27:48] take him away from here.

[00:27:50] Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.

[00:27:57] From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and Visit Myrtle Beach comes Charlie’s Place,

[00:28:02] a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie’s Place on the iHeartRadio app,

[00:28:09] Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:28:16] Segregation in the day.

[00:28:19] Integration at night.

[00:28:21] When segregation was the law, one mysterious Black club owner had his own rules.

[00:28:26] We didn’t worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world.

[00:28:32] Inside Charlie’s place, Black and white people danced together, but not everyone was happy about

[00:28:38] it. You saw the KKK? Yeah. They was dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie,

[00:28:47] take him away from here.

[00:28:49] Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.

[00:28:57] From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and Visit Myrtle Beach comes Charlie’s Place,

[00:29:02] a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie’s Place on the iHeartRadio app,

[00:29:09] Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:29:15] This is Rider Strong with a podcast called The Red Weather.

[00:29:19] In 1995, my neighbor and a trainer disappeared from a commune.

[00:29:23] It was nature, and trees, and praying, and drugs.

[00:29:27] So no, I am not your guru.

[00:29:31] Back then, I lied to everybody.

[00:29:33] They have had this case for 30 years.

[00:29:36] I’m going back to my hometown to uncover the truth.

[00:29:39] You can now binge all episodes of The Red Weather on the iHeartRadio app,

[00:29:43] Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:29:46] Hey, ambitious, well-intentioned, ferocious, and

[00:29:49] wealthy mother looks like in the Black community.

[00:29:51] This Women’s History Month, the podcast Keep It Positive Sweetie celebrates the power of women

[00:29:56] choosing healing, purpose, and faith, even when life gets messy.

[00:30:01] Love is not a destination. You have to work on it every day.

[00:30:03] Keep It Positive Sweetie creates space for honest conversations on self-worth,

[00:30:08] love, growth, and navigating life with grace and grit,

[00:30:11] led by women who uplift, inspire, and tell the truth out loud.

[00:30:15] I have several conversations with God, and I know,

[00:30:19] why it took 20 years.

[00:30:21] To hear this and more, listen to Keep It Positive Sweetie on the iHeartRadio app,

[00:30:26] Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:30:32] We’re back, and we’re talking about HelloFresh, proud sponsors of the IRA.

[00:30:38] Wow.

[00:30:39] Yeah.

[00:30:40] I don’t know, Sophie.

[00:30:41] I said the same thing when I found that out, Sophie.

[00:30:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It surprises a lot of people.

[00:30:45] Um, speaking of surprising,

[00:30:48] Salazar, surprisingly good at being the dictator of Portugal.

[00:30:52] Um, so the fact that the British are really leaning on him

[00:30:56] to help keep Franco out of the war is a big ask for the man.

[00:30:59] Um, but it’s also, you know, Franco, this is not a smooth relationship.

[00:31:03] He and Salazar are not, this is not easy.

[00:31:06] Franco is never as committed to the international fascist cause

[00:31:09] as Hitler and Mussolini, right?

[00:31:11] He is, like Salazar, an Iberian, but he’s also an opportunist.

[00:31:14] In these early years of sweeping fascist success,

[00:31:17] he gets really angry.

[00:31:18] He’s angry at Salazar for, like, holding him back.

[00:31:20] In one notable moment, he complains that Salazar is un timido, like a weakling, right?

[00:31:25] Like he’s, he’s timid, he’s weak.

[00:31:27] And the frustration is buoyed by the manner in which Salazar controls his military.

[00:31:31] Cause he’s, a lot of guys in his military are kind of on the Franco side of things here.

[00:31:36] And he keeps replacing these guys in power and replacing them with these younger lick

[00:31:40] spittles that he can trust to be loyal to him.

[00:31:43] And they, he appoints so many kids in their thirties, over experienced officers that,

[00:31:48] like, long standing members of the military start to get angry and kind of, like, feeling frustrated.

[00:31:54] What is this, a doge?

[00:31:55] Yeah.

[00:31:55] Yeah.

[00:31:56] What is the, like, he’s doing kind of a doge thing here, right?

[00:31:58] And this is very different from like a career military man, like Franco, but also Salazar.

[00:32:03] They’re never, they’re never, they’re not in this period.

[00:32:05] Eventually his alienation of the military is going to cause problems for his successors, but it never

[00:32:10] gets bad enough while he’s in power that they feel bold enough to try.

[00:32:14] Okay.

[00:32:15] Um, in World War II, it becomes clearer as that kind of

[00:32:18] goes on and like operation Barbarossa turns against the Germans.

[00:32:22] Everyone starts to realize like, oh shit, Salazar probably had the right idea here.

[00:32:26] Fascism is not looking so hot, right?

[00:32:28] All of it.

[00:32:29] Central Europe has been leveled by like allied bombing raids.

[00:32:32] Might’ve, might’ve worked out really well for us that you kept out of this thing, huh?

[00:32:36] Your boy knew what was up.

[00:32:37] Yeah.

[00:32:38] I’m kind of glad we didn’t send the Portuguese army to Stalingrad.

[00:32:42] Um, and sort of, while this is happening, Portugal is profiting from both sides of

[00:32:47] the world.

[00:32:48] Yeah.

[00:32:48] He is an arch war profiteer and because he’s never fully aligned, he’s able to make really

[00:32:53] good money from everyone.

[00:32:54] Per the New York times quote, the money came from Britain and the United States for the

[00:32:58] use of the Azores islands as naval and air bases.

[00:33:01] At the same time, Lisbon was the spy center for the axis, as well as the allied powers

[00:33:05] with both of which Portugal traded.

[00:33:07] So they’re trading with everyone.

[00:33:08] They’re selling to everybody in 40.

[00:33:10] They wait until 43 to hand those islands over to the allies as naval and air bases when

[00:33:15] it’s pretty clear, you know, where things are going.

[00:33:17] But they’re profiteering from everyone.

[00:33:20] Now, all of this does come at a personal cost for Salazar.

[00:33:24] Negotiating a middle way at the center of the largest war in human history is not simple.

[00:33:27] And this does age him.

[00:33:29] By 1945, he looks like he’s much older than his years.

[00:33:33] And the victory of the USSR and the democratic nations spooks him initially, right?

[00:33:37] In 45, he’s like, shit.

[00:33:39] Oh, did his hair turn gray?

[00:33:40] Cause he thought he saw a ghost.

[00:33:42] Yeah.

[00:33:42] He thought he saw, he thought he, he thought Scooby-Doo character.

[00:33:45] Yeah.

[00:33:45] Yeah.

[00:33:45] He thinks he’s like fucked.

[00:33:47] Right.

[00:33:47] That like, Oh, America and the Soviets won.

[00:33:50] The left is going to rise worldwide in the wake of this.

[00:33:53] And that’s not going to be good for a guy like me.

[00:33:55] Who’s a career anti-communist.

[00:33:57] And so he gets scared enough that in 1945, he’ll, he has an election and it’s not a,

[00:34:03] it’s not a real election, but he lets political parties besides his own party run again.

[00:34:08] And he claims publicly that the election will be quote as free as in free England.

[00:34:13] So how many times have you said that exact statement?

[00:34:17] Over the course of this show?

[00:34:20] Constantly.

[00:34:20] Whereas like the dictator had an election.

[00:34:23] Yeah.

[00:34:23] It wasn’t a real election, but he let people run.

[00:34:26] Yeah.

[00:34:27] Did he kill the people that ran against him?

[00:34:29] Not immediately.

[00:34:31] He’s going to lock some of them up and torture some of them, right?

[00:34:35] This isn’t going to last, but there is this initial, cause he’s kind of spooked.

[00:34:39] He doesn’t want to push the allies too hard.

[00:34:41] He doesn’t want to seem like a fascist in this period.

[00:34:43] So he’s kind of scared.

[00:34:44] He empowers a new set of special military.

[00:34:47] Okay.

[00:34:47] Okay.

[00:34:47] To liberalize the policies of the political police.

[00:34:50] There’s this concentration camp, Tarrafal, where the communists and these democratic

[00:34:54] activists are held and he improves conditions.

[00:34:57] He lets them talk to their families on the outside.

[00:35:00] He restores contact with what one inmate described as the living world in the post-war period

[00:35:05] for a little while.

[00:35:06] And for an article in the Journal of Music and Politics, Annabel Duarte writes, Portuguese

[00:35:11] fascism was quickly trying to make its political conversion.

[00:35:14] It was trying to eliminate and make us forget the more conspicuous.

[00:35:17] It was trying to eliminate and make us forget the more conspicuous aspects that identified

[00:35:18] it with the dying regimes that had been its allies.

[00:35:19] And I do like the idea of like, whoa, no, whoa, whoa, fascists.

[00:35:20] It’s just like this guy.

[00:35:21] We have field days in jail.

[00:35:22] Fascism.

[00:35:23] I hardly know him.

[00:35:24] Yeah.

[00:35:25] In Portugal camps.

[00:35:26] It’s like a camp camp.

[00:35:27] Not a camp camp.

[00:35:28] Jesus.

[00:35:29] Camp, camp, camp.

[00:35:30] No, it’s like camp, you know, you know, like, yeah, right.

[00:35:31] Exactly.

[00:35:32] It’s nice.

[00:35:33] So these changes are not entirely causal.

[00:35:34] They’re not entirely causal.

[00:35:35] They’re not entirely causal.

[00:35:36] They’re not entirely causal.

[00:35:37] They’re not entirely causal.

[00:35:38] They’re not entirely causal.

[00:35:39] They’re not entirely causal.

[00:35:40] They’re not entirely causal.

[00:35:41] So like, yeah, right.

[00:35:42] Exactly.

[00:35:43] It’s nice.

[00:35:44] So these changes are not entirely cosmetic, right?

[00:35:48] Things do get better for people in military prison for a while, not forever, but they

[00:35:53] don’t presage.

[00:35:54] This is not a legitimate change towards liberalism, right?

[00:35:56] He’s not really introducing any more freedom.

[00:35:59] One major policy change that sounds good on paper is the political police can now only

[00:36:03] hold detainees without charges or a warrant for 180 days, right?

[00:36:08] So you can only keep people for six months without saying why you’re doing it.

[00:36:11] Dude, that’s standing on my head.

[00:36:13] And this is not, yeah, you would have to in a Portuguese torture prison.

[00:36:16] I’ll tell you what, I’d come out with the tightest, strongest shoulders you could possibly

[00:36:20] imagine.

[00:36:21] Your fucking shoulders would be nuts, especially since you’re spending way longer than six

[00:36:24] months there.

[00:36:25] All that this law means-

[00:36:26] Honestly, that’s a training camp.

[00:36:27] Yeah.

[00:36:28] That’s what kind of camp it is.

[00:36:29] It’s training camp.

[00:36:30] It’s got to last a little longer than that because the only result of this policy

[00:36:34] is that after six months, you release the prisoners and then as soon as they step outside the

[00:36:39] prison, you arrest them again for another six months.

[00:36:41] Right?

[00:36:42] That’s all you’re doing.

[00:36:43] You’re not actually letting anybody out here.

[00:36:45] Now he does make-

[00:36:46] That sounds about right.

[00:36:47] Yeah.

[00:36:48] It’s pretty dictator-y stuff.

[00:36:50] He does make one real concession, although it’s brief, which is that he allows the Movimento

[00:36:54] Unidad Democratica, which is like a democratic umbrella party, to briefly start organizing

[00:37:00] and running candidates.

[00:37:02] Now this is a broad coalition, but even that proves to be too much for Salazar to allow.

[00:37:07] Within a few years, the Movimento starts to pick up steam.

[00:37:11] It’s clear that there’s enough leftist sentiment to present a threat to his regime.

[00:37:15] So in 1948, he outlaws the organization and calls it a communist front.

[00:37:20] Now by 48, he’s kind of … Again, he’s got these good instincts where he pretends to

[00:37:27] liberalize in the post-war period where there’s this kind of surge in support for these kind

[00:37:31] of anti-far right, pro-left ideas worldwide, and he gauges correctly that that’s not going

[00:37:39] to last.

[00:37:40] By 48, the post-war danger posed by the victory of anti-fascism is over.

[00:37:46] The whole Cold War thing is starting to spin up.

[00:37:49] There’s now this kind of anti-leftist sentiment that is increasingly entrenched all over the

[00:37:54] quote unquote democratic world.

[00:37:57] Portugal gets admitted to NATO, and Salazar’s strong anti-communist credentials officially

[00:38:02] outlasted the brief period during which Americans had to pretend that they considered the USSR

[00:38:07] an ally.

[00:38:08] He doesn’t have to hold out long.

[00:38:10] For us to be like, oh, this guy used to be Hitler’s friend and Mussolini’s friend, but

[00:38:13] he’s an anti-communist and isn’t that all that really matters?

[00:38:17] We’re trying to lock up as many anti-communists as we can to form this block against the USSR.

[00:38:23] And so by 48, he has kind of held out long enough.

[00:38:27] There had been a lot of direct collaboration between the Nazi regime and Salazar’s government

[00:38:32] and Mussolini’s regime and Salazar’s government, particularly within the political police.

[00:38:37] Salazar’s intelligence network had constantly been uncomfortable.

[00:38:39] contact with Mussolini and Hitler’s political police before and during the war. One of his top

[00:38:45] intel heads, Captain Agnostino Pereira, had collaborated with the Nazis as a private

[00:38:50] businessman, trading tungsten during the war years, right? And he’s going to be operating

[00:38:55] the torture prison system after the war, right? This guy who had been, who was directly cribbing

[00:39:01] notes from the Gestapo and from the SD. In 1956, there’s a huge wave of repression that gets

[00:39:07] launched because by the mid-50s, with the Cold War really going, Salazar’s like, okay, it’s time

[00:39:13] to get rid of all of these liberalizing policies. We can really lock in and start absolutely cracking

[00:39:19] down on the left and on any kind of like pro-democratic organization. And nobody in America

[00:39:25] or wherever is going to fuck with us, right? He passes a law in 56 that is meant to extend the

[00:39:32] incarceration periods among political prisoners to what is effectively a life sentence. And this

[00:39:36] is directly based on the fact that Salazar is going to be a pro-democratic organization.

[00:39:37] It’s based off of a German act in 1935 that led to what’s called the Schutthoft system,

[00:39:42] where detention time is unlimited for enemies of the state. So again,

[00:39:45] this ally of the Americans who have just beaten the Nazis is using Nazi policies as the rubric

[00:39:51] for creating this sort of system in which to crack down on dissent. And the US is not only cool with

[00:39:56] it, in 1957, we send the CIA to Portugal to help train his secret police. So they go straight from

[00:40:03] learning from the Nazis to working with the CIA. And part of what’s happening here is that

[00:40:07] Salazar has lobbied the White House and been like, look, if I fall, Portuguese communism is

[00:40:14] obviously going to come roaring back, you know, so you guys need to send me some dudes to help my

[00:40:18] guys do torture. Duarte writes, a new period begins. Special agents travel to elite training

[00:40:24] camps in the United States, such as Camp Piri, Virginia, also known as the farm, where they

[00:40:28] received instructions and methods and practices of interrogation from CIA experts. They’re great.

[00:40:34] Now, I mean, I like that he’s double dipping.

[00:40:36] Yeah.

[00:40:37] You know, he’s just like, look, look, a lot of people have a lot of ideas.

[00:40:43] Uh-huh.

[00:40:44] And I’m not going to say that they’re all bad.

[00:40:46] American fascists, German fascists, I’ll take any fascist idea about how to torture leftists.

[00:40:52] Yeah. He’s like, can we make them stronger, though?

[00:40:54] Yeah. And the CIA, again, like just the degree to which they are now playing a crucial role. And

[00:41:00] specifically, they’re helping teach him how to use, we’ll talk about this more later, like auditory

[00:41:06] torture in order to, like,

[00:41:07] really break people’s minds in these torture prisons. And the CIA is like taking notes from

[00:41:12] him, right?

[00:41:12] They introduce him to Van Halen.

[00:41:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. They invented Van Halen for this.

[00:41:17] Yeah.

[00:41:18] So this creates an extraordinary turning point in the situation, right? The fact that there’s like,

[00:41:24] that he’s these, these CIA experts are coming in and they’re starting to like,

[00:41:27] they’re training Portuguese people in the farm over in Virginia.

[00:41:31] There’s now protests. There’s like a protest campaign that rises up from family members of

[00:41:36] prisoners who are like,

[00:41:37] angry that their family members are being tortured so hideously. And they start protesting

[00:41:42] enough that like the government has to take note of it. Again, he’s not,

[00:41:46] it’s not a complete totalitarian system. He can’t totally ignore stuff like this.

[00:41:51] And 72 Portuguese lawyers from Lisbon, Porto, and other cities put out a comprehensive report

[00:41:56] on irregularities concerning the treatment of prisoners and deaths in the state prisons.

[00:42:02] Duarte writes, quote,

[00:42:03] Joaquim Lemos de Oliveira, a barber and Democrat from Faf, age 48,

[00:42:07] and Manuel da Silva Jr., a worker and anti-fascist from Viana do Castelo, age 69, for instance,

[00:42:12] had died inside a prison in Porto in 1957. Officially, they had committed suicide.

[00:42:18] And what starts to leak out at this period is the degree to which these torture prisons

[00:42:23] have become institutionalized in Portugal. People find out that there’s, they’re locking prisoners

[00:42:29] in these tiny cells called segredo, which have no natural light or even space to walk. You can only

[00:42:35] like really stand. You can’t even fully lie down. You can’t even walk. You can’t even walk. You can’t

[00:42:37] lie down. There’s like a wooden board for a bed, but you can’t even straighten your body out on the

[00:42:42] ground. People with money who are like middle class can pay for a larger cell, but it’s still

[00:42:47] a dungeon, right? And it’s costing your family a significant amount of money every day. One

[00:42:52] political prisoner in 1956 left an account stating, for over a month, he was locked in a wet cement

[00:42:57] cell without sufficient light or air. Then he was forced to pay the daily sum of 10 escudos,

[00:43:02] for he was threatened with the dungeons if he did not pay. So there’s starting to be some

[00:43:07] results. There’s starting to be some results. There’s starting to be some results. There’s

[00:43:07] resistance to this from like family members of people who are being held for a period of time.

[00:43:12] And some of this even leaks out internationally. But it’s this thing where ultimately the

[00:43:18] anti-communist struggle is more, like matters a lot more for every one of his backers than the

[00:43:25] fact that he is using these techniques, like some of which we’re teaching him, right? And there’s

[00:43:30] this also handy thing where the CIA is like, well, we’ll take notes on what he’s doing, right? We’ll

[00:43:37] push him to, you know, overthrow governments in Latin America. We can give them data on what

[00:43:43] works in Salazar’s prisons, right? He’s like a laboratory for like anti-left-wing crackdowns and

[00:43:50] operating secret police states. And that’s kind of the role that he’s playing internationally in

[00:43:55] this period of time. So that’s cool. That is really cool.

[00:44:00] Yeah. Yeah. It’s great. I love our role in this.

[00:44:04] Yeah. Look at us.

[00:44:05] Makes me feel good about the country.

[00:44:07] Uh, one of the things that the CIA really helps him lock down is their, their kind of use of the

[00:44:12] statue, this very like Portuguese torture technique where people are made to hold position for days

[00:44:18] or weeks at a time without sleeping while police shout in their ears and threaten them. This is

[00:44:22] billed legally as it’s not torture. It’s a continuous investigation, right? They’re

[00:44:27] constantly being interrogated for evidence about like terrorism. And so this is necessary for the

[00:44:32] security of the state. And they start increasingly using sound as a weapon, like where they’ll play,

[00:44:37] and like speakers, like voices of other people, like whispering, or even like sounds from outside

[00:44:42] sounds, people being tortured to like, fuck with the heads of people who are locked in position,

[00:44:48] unable to like sleep or move for days at a time in order to make them go crazy, right? Like that’s

[00:44:54] the purpose of this and the CIA is helping them, right? We’re taking notes on all of this. And

[00:44:59] we’re some of this stuff winds up being part of the enhanced interrogation techniques we

[00:45:02] used after 9 11, like this is groundbreaking research in the field of how to torture people.

[00:45:07] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so we keep it small, but I think that’s what’s going on. People are just like,

[00:45:07] um which is part of why we’re so interested in salazar’s regime as he gives us a chance

[00:45:12] he gives our torture guys a chance to see what works to break people’s brains

[00:45:16] um pretty cool pretty cool stuff i mean cool i know that cool i know there’s going to be comments

[00:45:24] yeah but you got to remove yourself from the horrors that’s pretty cool yeah it’s pretty

[00:45:30] cool at least we know this stuff right it’s always good to have data you know on on what

[00:45:34] kind of torture works on how long you can play van halen to somebody before their mind collapses

[00:45:38] which is about nine minutes uh at least from my people yeah um so salazar’s regime obviously is

[00:45:47] no less brutal after world war ii than it had been before but the man seemed different he was

[00:45:52] treated different internationally he’s now an elder statesman and he’s he’s feted around the

[00:45:57] world as like not you know he’s a dictator but he’s a good dictator right he kept spain out of

[00:46:03] world war ii

[00:46:04] and he kept portugal from falling to communism right so like he’s the he’s the socially

[00:46:09] acceptable dictator you know in a lot of the west right now personally as i said he looks physically

[00:46:15] weaker after the war he’s kind of burnt out and you do see especially as the 50s wear into the

[00:46:22] 60s he’s tired and he’s less careful than the younger version of himself had been and these

[00:46:28] factors he starts kind of slipping this is going to lead him to embrace what would become a calamity

[00:46:33] for the sake of maintaining portugal’s

[00:46:34] doomed overseas empire right he’s going to make his first really disastrously bad decisions

[00:46:40] starting in the early 60s and we’re going to talk about that but you know who else made some

[00:46:45] bad decisions in the 60s like everyone that’s right that’s right uh but particularly the

[00:46:52] sponsors of this podcast oh wow segregation in the day integration at night

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[00:47:54] this is rider strong with a podcast called the red weather

[00:48:01] in 1995 my neighbor anna train

[00:48:04] disappeared from a commune it was nature and trees and praying and drugs so no i am not your

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[00:48:32] night

[00:48:34] segregation was the law one mysterious black club owner had his own rules we didn’t worry about what

[00:48:40] went on outside it was like stepping in another world inside charlie’s place black and white people

[00:48:47] danced together but not everyone was happy about it you saw the kkk yeah they were dressed up in

[00:48:55] their uniform the kkk set out to raid charlie take him away from here charlie was an example

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[00:50:10] podcasts and we’re back so if you’ve ever looked at a map of europe you know that portugal not a big

[00:50:20] country it’s a little rectangle cut out of the iberia the fingernail of europe right it’s like

[00:50:26] the fingernail of europe if like fucking spain is the thumb it’s a fingernail right now in salazar

[00:50:32] is the thumb it’s the thumbnail

[00:50:34] yeah it’s the thumbnail thank you sorry we are intellectuals on yeah we have to be accurate here

[00:50:38] now most of portuguese territory most of what the government controls is not portugal and it’s not

[00:50:45] in europe right these are what are called euphemistically the overseas provinces which

[00:50:50] is a term that’s created to hide the fact that portugal owns a lot of the rest of the world

[00:50:55] right and it’s really kind of silly at this point good for them i guess yeah not going to be great

[00:51:01] for them in this period no and to be

[00:51:04] fair not good for the earth no no but if their goal was to be a small little sliver on the planet

[00:51:13] and just start taking shit over yeah i mean mission accomplished temporarily yeah i mean

[00:51:18] they’re holding on to it for a long period of time right believe it achieve it you know what

[00:51:23] i’m saying right something you can take away from this episode you can be a small little dumbass

[00:51:29] country and still get shit done yeah uh at least for a while

[00:51:34] slider

[00:51:36] wow

[00:51:37] i didn’t know ignit went so far

[00:51:38] by wanting to do what you love

[00:51:40] okay

[00:51:40] see

[00:51:42] let’s try how many days left

[00:51:44] we have

[00:51:45] so

[00:51:46] so

[00:51:46] yeah

[00:51:47] we got

[00:51:48] upwards

[00:51:48] of

[00:51:49] a

[00:51:50] half

[00:51:50] eight

[00:51:51] myself

[00:51:53] maybe

[00:51:55] we should

[00:51:56] stop

[00:51:56] i

[00:51:57] don’t

[00:51:58] want

[00:51:58] to

[00:51:59] die

[00:51:59] so

[00:52:00] we

[00:52:00] I

[00:52:01] think

[00:52:02] before

[00:52:02] you

[00:52:03] die

[00:52:03] Terryor

[00:52:04] po

[00:52:04] Thailand

[00:52:04] where

[00:52:04] control Guinea-Bissau, Sao Tome, Capo Verde, as well as if you’ve ever been to India or heard of

[00:52:10] a place called Goa in India, which is like, it’s kind of where psytrance comes out of. I’ve heard

[00:52:15] it referred to as like Russia’s Mexico a lot. It’s like a party town in a lot of ways. It’s a major

[00:52:21] tourist destination. That’s what I was going to say is like, it’s a big time tourist destination.

[00:52:26] Yeah. That’s owned by Portugal up until the latter third or so of the 20th century. That’s

[00:52:32] Portuguese territory in the middle of fucking India.

[00:52:34] Like Club Portugal.

[00:52:36] Yeah. It’s like Club Portugal. And in order to maintain all these colonial possessions,

[00:52:41] Portugal has to keep 100,000 soldiers stationed mostly in Africa, but all over the world in order

[00:52:46] to keep in charge of these increasingly restive possessions, who after World War II had started

[00:52:52] to be like, hey, a lot of anti-colonial movements are succeeding across the world. Like Britain’s

[00:52:57] given up India. Why are we still part of Portugal?

[00:53:02] I feel like Angola is its own thing. What are we doing here? Right?

[00:53:07] And by the start of the 60s, the cost of repressing these constant movements for

[00:53:11] independence had grown precipitously. Portugal in the start of the 60s has the heaviest defense

[00:53:17] burden of any European nation. They are spending 40% of their annual budget to maintain control

[00:53:23] of these colonial possessions. Yeah. I mean, that’s a lot of distance.

[00:53:28] There’s a lot of distance. It’s not cheap to hold onto this shit.

[00:53:31] I know they’ve got boats, but like-

[00:53:31] Yeah. I mean, that’s a lot of distance. It’s not cheap to hold onto this shit.

[00:53:32] Boats are expensive.

[00:53:33] Boats cost money. An army costs money. A secret police force costs money.

[00:53:38] They should have looked over to Spain and be like, hey, how’d that Armada thing work out for you?

[00:53:41] Yeah. Did that keep you guys in power?

[00:53:42] Good for a while.

[00:53:43] Yeah. Really good until it was very bad. Yeah.

[00:53:47] It was really good. And then it became, pardon the sailing reference, an albatross around our necks.

[00:53:52] Yeah. A little bit of an albatross. Yeah. So this is, and again, this is particularly ludicrous

[00:53:58] that as the 60s start, Portugal’s spending nearly half of their budget keeping control

[00:54:01] of these colonial possessions. Salazar is the fiscal conservative whose power rests on balancing

[00:54:07] the budget and being rational about money. And everyone’s like, okay, but is it really rational

[00:54:13] for like us to own so much of Africa? And we’re all, we’re not even really making money off of

[00:54:19] it, right? We’re spending all of our money holding onto it. Like, why does this make sense? Right?

[00:54:24] That’s the concern. It’s like, there’s resources there. Aren’t you supposed to be like-

[00:54:29] Yeah.

[00:54:30] During the resources?

[00:54:31] It’s not like your whole thing.

[00:54:33] It seems like this is nothing but negatives to us.

[00:54:36] Although to be fair, I guess, is salt really a thing you’re fighting for in the 1900s?

[00:54:41] I feel like there’s plenty of salt. We’ve got way too much salt, some people say.

[00:54:45] Waging, you can’t wage a war for salt while McDonald’s exists.

[00:54:49] No, no, exactly. Right?

[00:54:51] You can just get it real cheap.

[00:54:52] Yeah. We’ve got so much salt now. We don’t need any of this.

[00:54:56] We should never have waged those wars. We’ve had too much salt.

[00:54:58] Yeah. It’s, we now know what it does to our heart, right? What if we’d never,

[00:55:01] never taken, you know, any of these salt territories? You know, Italians would live

[00:55:05] forever. So the, the irrationalism of this stance, of the fact that he’s trying, he’s

[00:55:11] spending so much money to hold onto these possessions and not really making back what

[00:55:14] Portugal’s putting into it. The irrationalism of this stance is key to understanding it.

[00:55:19] Because Salazar, he’s been kind of almost like a robot up to this point. He seems like

[00:55:23] such a, he’s only making the nuts and bolts, good financial decisions. And he’s gotten,

[00:55:28] his reputation is based on, he’s like this cold hearted accountant who,

[00:55:31] doesn’t fuck up. Right? And that falls away after this point. Alan Smith, writing for the

[00:55:38] Journal of African History, notes that Salazar has let himself become consumed by the quote,

[00:55:42] almost paranoid fear that foreigners were busily plotting to dismember the Portuguese empire.

[00:55:48] And you have to see this as consistent with the logic that kept him out of World War II.

[00:55:52] Portugal’s small, and that small size is a vulnerability. And there, he feels some

[00:55:57] protective effect as long as they have this massive overseas empire that maybe,

[00:56:01] that, that protects us from our small size of our main country. But even that feeling that this is

[00:56:07] keeping us safe is a delusion, right? There’s also like a big wave of anti-colonial

[00:56:14] sentiment in the latter half of the 20th century. Like pretty, I mean, look at what England gave up.

[00:56:22] Yeah, everything. They’re like, yeah, I guess we should probably cut it out.

[00:56:26] But yeah, but we’ll, we’ll give up some of it. Right. And, and this is-

[00:56:30] Okay, India, you can be-

[00:56:31] India again.

[00:56:33] This is a problem for Portugal in that he has previously, he’d been so good at seeing where

[00:56:40] the wind was blowing and like, ah, you know what? I’m not going to back the fascists fully in World

[00:56:47] War II because I just don’t think they’re going to have staying power. Right. And in this point,

[00:56:52] and right after the war, he’s like, I’m going to liberalize on paper.

[00:56:55] It’s like buying crypto.

[00:56:56] Right, right. He’s, he’s good. He’s been good at buying and selling at the right times.

[00:57:01] Yeah.

[00:57:01] And he is buying into colonialism at exactly the wrong time. Right.

[00:57:06] He normally is really good at seeing a scam.

[00:57:08] Yeah. And he’s just, he’s kind of passed his prime here. Right. I think that’s a big part

[00:57:12] of what’s going on. Now, all colonial powers are propped up in this, in the periods before by

[00:57:18] fantasies, right? The British hold on to what they hold on to as long as they do, because they’ve,

[00:57:23] they’ve got this need to believe they’ve still, they haven’t given up the empire entirely. Right.

[00:57:28] We still have some fragment of this thing that made us great.

[00:57:31] The French in this period clung to a policy known as Francafrique,

[00:57:36] in which they granted their French speaking African colonies a degree of autonomy

[00:57:39] while maintaining ultimate control themselves and acting as Bobacar Diop wrote for the new African

[00:57:45] as absentee landlords, right? Where they’re like, well, we’ll let them be independent on paper,

[00:57:50] but these are French speaking countries. And so we ultimately exercise power.

[00:57:54] And this is a delusion for France to all of these are delusions.

[00:57:57] And now we’re going to talk about what was Portugal’s delusion that backed up their colonial

[00:58:01] ideology in the Salazar period, right? Because early on when you’re taking all this shit,

[00:58:06] you don’t need to back it up by anything other than like, we’re Christian. They’re not,

[00:58:10] we’ve got guns. They don’t. Come on, look at our skin color. Don’t be weird about it.

[00:58:16] In the late 20th century, Portugal has to find a way to like justify why they’re holding on to

[00:58:22] this shit. And they actually try to do it by being like, actually we’re anti-racist and we’re the

[00:58:26] only colonial power that is. So the delusion that they latch on,

[00:58:31] is inspired by the work of a Brazilian sociologist named Gilberto Freire. And Salazar’s regime buys

[00:58:45] hook, line, and sinker into this racial pseudoscientific theory that Freire comes

[00:58:49] up with called Lusotropicalism. And this argues- He saw that when, that’s Brazilian.

[00:58:54] That’s Brazilian. Yes. They argue, Lusotropicalism is this idea that number one,

[00:59:00] Portuguese,

[00:59:01] people are uniquely well suited to like these tropical and like warmer climates that they’re

[00:59:07] colonializing in. So number one, we are fit to survive in these places we’re running,

[00:59:13] unlike the British, right? And number two, we’ve come up with the only system of colonialism that’s

[00:59:18] actually good for colonized people because we’re not racist, right? Unlike the British and French,

[00:59:25] Portuguese colonizers didn’t consider themselves superior to the people they ruled.

[00:59:29] And the evidence for this is that they fucked them up.

[00:59:31] They fucked them and had kids with them, right? Like we’re cool with mixed race kids, right? Like

[00:59:36] that’s what makes us not racist, right? We’re breeding with them. We’re not bigoted the same

[00:59:40] way all of these other Europeans are, right? Somebody should have given them an American

[00:59:44] history textbook. Yeah, yeah, boy. Or like any colonial history textbook, right?

[00:59:49] Portugal is not special and they’re no less racist than anyone else. But that’s what Lusotropicalism

[00:59:55] is. The idea that like Portuguese colonialism is unique and special and thus defensible, right?

[01:00:00] They might be.

[01:00:01] They’re probably less racist than other people. Like they’re probably a little less racist than

[01:00:05] Hitler.

[01:00:05] Yeah, they’re less racist than Hitler. Not a high bar, right?

[01:00:08] Yeah, I know. But like, yeah, sure.

[01:00:11] We’ve brought him up. It would be a shame to just forget him, you know?

[01:00:14] I’ll say they clear that bar, right? I am going to quote per an article on Lusotropicalism for

[01:00:19] Genocide Watch by Nat Hill, quote, Lusotropicalism became the defining ideology of Antonio de

[01:00:25] Oliveira Salazar’s pseudo-fascist regime in Portugal following the Second World War.

[01:00:29] As European powers increasingly sought

[01:00:31] to rid themselves of their colonial territories, Portugal, under Salazar, refused to consider

[01:00:35] granting its African colonies independence or autonomy, calling them the overseas provinces

[01:00:40] instead of colonies. Amilcar Cabral, the founder and leader of the PAIGC in Portuguese Guinea,

[01:00:47] spoke about how the regime used Lusotropicalism in their colonial dogma. A whole mythology was

[01:00:53] assembled. And as with other myths, especially those considering the subjection and exploitation

[01:00:56] of peoples, there was no lack of men of science, even renowned sociologists, to provide a

[01:01:01] theoretical basis. In this case, Lusotropicalismo. Gilberto Freire transformed all of us who lived

[01:01:07] in the provinces of Portugal into the fortunate inhabitants of a Lusotropical paradise, right?

[01:01:12] So instead of, these are people we’re ruling, these people are really lucky because we know

[01:01:16] how to actually take care of them. And that makes us fine. We’re different. We’re better than

[01:01:22] everyone. We’re not like other boys. We’re not like the other colonial powers, right?

[01:01:27] So now the reality is that there’s nothing different about Portuguese colonialism.

[01:01:31] I mean, it’s a good, it’s a swing. It’s a good attempt at a branding, right? Yeah.

[01:01:38] But Portuguese colonialism is like all colonialism based on mass resource extraction and forced

[01:01:42] labor, right? Human trafficking had been the core of Portugal’s colonial ambitions since the 1400s,

[01:01:48] when the first West African people were captured, taken to Portugal and sold into slavery in Lagos.

[01:01:54] Geovine effect documents in an article for Global Voices, quote,

[01:01:57] among the colonial powers that emerged over the centuries of European colonialism,

[01:02:01] Portugal trafficked the most enslaved people. No one else did as much human trafficking in the

[01:02:07] colonial era as Portugal. They are top dog, right? And they’ve got their defenders, even to the

[01:02:14] modern day, who will claim that like, no, we weren’t as bad as the other assholes, right?

[01:02:18] Obviously, starting with that off, there’s this often reported claim that Portugal was like the

[01:02:22] first European country to ban slavery in 1761. And this is a lie, right? That year, Portugal

[01:02:28] banned the importation of slaves into one city, but they couldn’t do that. And so, you know,

[01:02:31] they continue to be the primary global transporter of the transatlantic slave trade until 1850.

[01:02:37] And that Global Voices article has a graph we’ll put up in video form that makes it clear

[01:02:41] how much transatlantic slave trading is being done by Portugal, right? Like Portugal is the

[01:02:48] light green in this document. And every period from 1501 up to 1850, they are by far the majority

[01:02:57] of the transatlantic slave trafficking, right?

[01:03:01] From 1801 to 1850, the Netherlands traffics about 568,000 people. And the UK and France

[01:03:10] traffic smaller numbers than that. And Portugal is responsible for almost two and a half million

[01:03:15] people being trafficked.

[01:03:16] Oh, Portugal, don’t do that.

[01:03:17] Yeah. Bad, bad, bad.

[01:03:19] No. Spraying with the water bottle.

[01:03:21] Now, the transatlantic slave trade obviously ends kind of in the middle of the 1800s,

[01:03:27] but that doesn’t stop Portugal from utilizing forced labor, right?

[01:03:31] Yeah.

[01:03:31] Yeah.

[01:03:31] Yeah.

[01:03:31] You just change it. You know, they alter it. You’re not, you’re no longer trafficking people

[01:03:34] in the same way, but you’re still forcing people to work for you. And you’re just dressing it up

[01:03:39] as like, well, these people were arrested for this purpose, right? In 1929, a civil and criminal

[01:03:45] political statute for the indigenous peoples of the colonies in Mozambique and Angola was

[01:03:49] established, which laid out that native people could not be assigned rights related to constitutional

[01:03:54] institutions. This forced segregation remained the law of the land throughout the period of

[01:03:59] Salazar’s Estado Novo, even though he said, you know, you can’t do that. You can’t do that.

[01:04:01] And he’s saying, no, no, no, we’re Luso-Tropicalists, right? We’re the ones who aren’t racist, but also

[01:04:06] indigenous peoples in Africa are not allowed to have constitutional rights, you know?

[01:04:11] And also, we did a lot of slave stuff.

[01:04:12] We did a lot of slave stuff, and we do not feel bad about it.

[01:04:15] We borrowed the 13th Amendment.

[01:04:17] Yeah. Now, they make some mild concessions to changing international opinion during Salazar’s

[01:04:22] term, but these are, again, minimal. In 1953, a law for governing Portuguese colonies ends the

[01:04:29] use of the term colonial empire.

[01:04:30] So they start, we’re not going to call ourselves an empire in the 50s, but we’re going to keep

[01:04:35] using forced labor. That will continue to be legal. And this new law notes that the state,

[01:04:39] quote, can only compel indigenous people to work in public works of general interest to the

[01:04:44] community, an occupation whose results belong to them in the execution of judicial decisions of a

[01:04:49] criminal nature or to comply with tax obligations. So we can’t sell slaves, but if you’re making

[01:04:54] something that’s good for you, we can make you do that work. Or if you get in criminal trouble,

[01:05:00] or if you owe money for taxes, then we can force you to labor for the state, right? Totally

[01:05:07] different, much less evil. Obviously, obviously way better. Now, the number one purpose of

[01:05:15] Portugal’s colonial empire under Salazar is the same as it had always been for Portugal,

[01:05:19] which is exploiting forced labor. As the financial drain for supporting the empire grew greater,

[01:05:25] Salazar pushed to increase the tax burden on Portugal’s colonies to pay for military deployments

[01:05:30] and the ever-increasing cost of labor. So, you know, it’s a very, very, very, very, very, very

[01:05:30] increasing foreign staff needed to keep things going. He pushes an aggressive pension scheme

[01:05:35] that destroys the foreign cash reserves in Mozambique and other African colonies,

[01:05:39] which makes it impossible for them to act independently because they have no foreign

[01:05:43] currency to do so with. He also pushes aggressive tariffs that make it painful to import or trade

[01:05:49] anything from countries other than Portugal. Alan Smith writes,

[01:05:53] foreign transfers were first made available to those firms doing business with the mother country.

[01:05:57] Exchange for purchases from other markets could only be obtained after these

[01:06:00] transactions had been completed and only if the dealings with Portugal had not exhausted the

[01:06:04] available reserves. The result of this policy was that the colonies were often well supplied with

[01:06:09] unnecessary commodities from Portugal while starving for essentials, which could only be

[01:06:13] obtained from elsewhere. There can be no doubt that Salazar placed great importance on the

[01:06:17] establishment and maintenance of this system, right? That like you’re, you don’t have everything

[01:06:22] you need because you’d have to buy that from England or whoever, but you’ve got all this

[01:06:26] shit you don’t need because it’s something we make in Portugal and we don’t make a lot, right?

[01:06:30] No, no, they make a delicious seafood dish. And this is, this is also bad for the overall

[01:06:36] Portuguese economy because he is banning, there’s not a lot of Portuguese companies that can take

[01:06:41] advantage of all of the resources in Mozambique and Angola and these other possessions. And he’s

[01:06:46] banning international companies from investing in these colonies because he’s scared that then

[01:06:50] their mother countries will take over, right? Which is increasing the overall burden on Portugal and

[01:06:56] the overall burden on the government because there’s less and less money to be made doing this

[01:07:00] shit.

[01:07:00] Now, while all this is happening and he is focused obsessively on maintaining this colonial

[01:07:06] empire, and this is an obsession for a lot of folks in the, in the ruling class, Portuguese

[01:07:10] citizens don’t give a shit. They’re barely aware of the fact that this is going on. Events in the

[01:07:14] colonies don’t make the news and Salazar’s policies make sure that the country never

[01:07:19] realizes a lot of massive material gain from all of these possessions. These same policies that

[01:07:24] are meant to ensure her dominance in Mozambique and Angola, like make it just not worth it for

[01:07:30] the regular people. So they don’t really see why are we doing this? A lot of shit comes to a head.

[01:07:35] That’s fair. They’re like, hey, we’re not doing great.

[01:07:37] This isn’t helping us at all. What are, why are we doing this? Yeah.

[01:07:41] You won’t even let us legalize heroin yet.

[01:07:43] Yeah. Come on, man. Yeah. That’s going to wait a couple of decades. So in 1961,

[01:07:48] that’s the most disastrous year for Salazar’s dictatorship since its founding. All these

[01:07:53] simmering colonial conflicts across Portuguese possessions burst onto the main stage. The UPA,

[01:07:59] which is a

[01:08:00] liberation organization in Angola, launches a series of attacks on white settler properties

[01:08:04] in Northern Angola, killing several Portuguese civilians. And the month before that, the MPLA,

[01:08:09] a Marxist group, had attacked the Luanda prison, killing seven guards. So you have these very

[01:08:14] public terrorist, or, you know, they call them terrorist attacks. And Salazar, his control over

[01:08:20] the media allows him to depict these explosions as, in the words of one paper,

[01:08:25] coming from the exterior that tries to disturb the lives of white and black people in the peaceful

[01:08:29] land of Angola.

[01:08:30] They’re outside agitators, right?

[01:08:33] Man, it’s like there’s some sort of playbook that exists.

[01:08:36] Yeah, it’s like it’s always the same fucking playbook. And he claims that, like, all we’re

[01:08:40] trying to do is keep things nice for all of our white and black citizens, who we all love equally,

[01:08:45] right? But any claims to enlightened racial attitudes by this luso-tropicalist regime

[01:08:50] are discarded at this point, as this article by Julia Garayo for the journal Violence Against

[01:08:55] Women summarizes. The massacres of white settlers and their workers in Northern Angola in 1912,

[01:09:00] the events that, according to the Portuguese government, triggered the war, were exhaustively

[01:09:04] photographed by embedded journalists and army officers. Photos of the corpses of raped white

[01:09:08] women and dead babies were reproduced in the national media. The Lisbon Society of Geography

[01:09:13] organized an exhibition to expose the selection of the pictures to the public, which was quite

[01:09:17] successful. And they’re eating the dogs! Yeah, they’re eating the dogs! The dog eaters!

[01:09:22] The wide circulation of these pictures in Portugal was intended to justify the deployment

[01:09:26] of troops abroad and delegitimize anti-colonial movements and communism.

[01:09:30] The Portuguese ambassador to the United Nations used the images to denounce the savagery of

[01:09:34] terrorists who crossed the northern border of Angola to behead, rape, and mutilate our women.

[01:09:38] These images, where the white woman’s body symbolizes white innocence threatened by African

[01:09:42] savagery, functioned to construct a retaliatory narrative of Portuguese wartime victimhood.

[01:09:48] As a call to arms embedded in incendiary words, their circulation was intended to prevent any

[01:09:52] empathy with anti-colonial movements and hence legitimize any form of violence employed against

[01:09:56] them. Tale as old as time.

[01:10:00] They, we, we, we, we know. Yeah, we’ve seen it.

[01:10:04] We know what’s happening. We’ve, we’ve, we’re seeing it now.

[01:10:07] Right, yeah, it continues to happen. It’s not, you never change the playbook because

[01:10:11] it works pretty well for a while. Well, people are real fucking dumb.

[01:10:14] Yeah, people are dumb. I don’t know if you’ve met the population.

[01:10:19] What a bunch of fucking dunces. It’s never, it doesn’t work in the long run though,

[01:10:24] right? Because this is impossible to contain and it’s impossible to hold on to these possessions

[01:10:30] when you get increasingly authoritarian. Right, it’s a stopgap. So unrest continues throughout

[01:10:35] the year and Salazar gets increasingly desperate to contain it. He tries, he extends Portuguese

[01:10:40] citizenship across, across the colonial populations. It’s kind of like, look, you’re

[01:10:44] citizens now. But his primary tactic is violence and sexualized violence against white women is

[01:10:49] used as a justification for this expensive and violent military response. And in the same vein,

[01:10:54] sexualized violence against Angolans becomes a popular tactic of the military. For the next

[01:10:59] decade, the military has been a part of the violence against white women. The military has

[01:11:00] as the Portuguese colonial war wears on, African women are systematically raped by Portuguese

[01:11:05] occupying soldiers. Obviously, this doesn’t stop people from being angry at Portugal.

[01:11:11] The fire only spreads. And it goes, it moves out from Angola. As Portuguese weakness is made

[01:11:17] manifest, they lose more and more of Salazar’s prized possessions. Goa, which had been Portuguese

[01:11:21] property for 400 years, is taken by a newly independent India in December of 1961.

[01:11:27] We were just going to party there.

[01:11:29] Yeah, now we’re not going to get credit for it. Well, I mean, we’re going to go to get a lot of

[01:11:33] credit. Yeah. Yeah. So Salazar orders his men who are surrounded in the middle of India to fight to

[01:11:41] the death. But his own governor general is like, nah, I don’t think we can win this one.

[01:11:47] Yeah, we’re not going to do that, man.

[01:11:49] Yeah, no, no, thank you. You’re you’re all the way at Lisbon, man. You don’t know how surrounded,

[01:11:53] how big India is.

[01:11:55] I don’t know if you’ve seen it. Can we get this guy a map?

[01:11:58] There’s like 80 guys here.

[01:11:59] What are you talking about?

[01:12:00] Didn’t you go to school?

[01:12:02] So the truth of this situation cannot be allowed to get out to the populace.

[01:12:07] Salazar’s minister of the army declared, we are today and will be tomorrow in India and Africa,

[01:12:11] as long live the eternal Portugal. So that’s not how things are going to work out. But for a while,

[01:12:18] at least, Salazar’s secret police and this repression regime he’s built sweep into action

[01:12:24] in Lisbon, right? We can at least pretend things are good in Lisbon.

[01:12:27] And to get some context about what life is like in Lisbon during this period of time,

[01:12:32] I want to read you parts of an article by Dennis Redmond. And Redmond was an AP reporter stationed in Lisbon.

[01:12:37] Perhaps Rodman.

[01:12:38] Rodman, an AP reporter stationed in Lisbon from 65 to 67.

[01:12:43] And he covers the Portuguese colonial war extensively, as well as this like rising youth movement against the war.

[01:12:49] In 1966, and in 66, more drafted Portuguese soldiers die in their colonial possessions than Americans die in Vietnam.

[01:12:57] Right. That’s the like scale of problem this is for Portugal.

[01:13:01] That year, he publishes several articles about the disastrous conduct of the military during what had become a hopeless conflict.

[01:13:09] These articles began to spread amongst among student protesters and earned him the attention of Salazar’s PIDE,

[01:13:14] which is what the secret police is called now.

[01:13:17] He writes in an article for Politico, my mail was steamed open.

[01:13:21] My phone conversations were meticulously recorded and translated.

[01:13:24] A squad of eight goons tried to grab me on Happiness Square at my

[01:13:27] Associated Press office in Lisbon before I found refuge at the U.S. embassy.

[01:13:31] Later, I was personally interrogated by the head of Portugal’s political police, which had assassinated some of its opponents, jailed and tortured others.

[01:13:38] The dossier contained the telex reports I had sent out into the world, reports of university students being mistreated by political police because of their struggle for greater freedom and democracy.

[01:13:47] Censorship was so prevalent, the government designated minders to every local newspaper who excised any reference to student unrest or guerrilla warfare in Africa and even flagged any literary articles,

[01:13:57] deemed unfavorable to the regime.

[01:13:59] And one of the things this guy notes is that none of the local press is useful, but the regime is not totalitarian enough that you can’t buy foreign.

[01:14:08] There’s always foreign newspapers available at the market in Lisbon, right?

[01:14:13] Even if they have to be smuggled in.

[01:14:14] So people are still able to figure out how badly the overseas war is going.

[01:14:19] And unrest is just building and building as the PIDE is getting more and more violent to crack down on things.

[01:14:26] Duarte summarizes,

[01:14:27] this crackdown in her article, quote,

[01:14:29] On April 21st, 1965, Maria Matos was arrested for activities against the security of the state.

[01:14:35] She was stripped naked and beaten by male and female agents.

[01:14:38] By the third day of torture without sleeping, she began to have hallucinations, spiders in the legs of a table, walls moving, and heard piercing screams of people being tortured.

[01:14:46] At the end of the episode, an agent started shooting pictures and a young male agent hummed a typical Portuguese Catholic song in honor of the Virgin Mary, entitled On the 13th of May.

[01:14:55] The intention is clear.

[01:14:56] To humiliate and taunt the victim, taking advantage of the religious connotations of the song, to mock her for being a communist and an atheist.

[01:15:03] In 1973, another prisoner, Pedro Baptista, suffered the statue torture for a week and heard sounds of protest songs, serenades, and photos outside the prison.

[01:15:12] At first, he thought they were an action of solidarity because of his situation, but he later concluded that they were an assemblage of pre-recorded sounds.

[01:15:20] So their shoulders were shredded, jacked.

[01:15:24] But also what you see here they’re doing is like they’re playing.

[01:15:26] They’re playing fake protest music to prisoners to make them think that their friends are out there, that like the revolution is gaining steam.

[01:15:34] And that’s a play, right?

[01:15:36] Like there’s not actually anything going on outside of the prison.

[01:15:39] And when people realize that, it kind of breaks them further.

[01:15:42] Even though the regime is weakening in this period.

[01:15:45] It’s not cool that they did that, but that’s a good move.

[01:15:49] It’s a smart move.

[01:15:50] You know, it works for a little while, like all of this stuff.

[01:15:53] Now, one of Salazar’s big calls in the late 60s.

[01:15:56] Is to ally with Rhodesia.

[01:15:58] He becomes like one of the few countries that will recognize the white supremacist regime there.

[01:16:04] When it’s fighting, it’s losing war in order to maintain this white supremacist state.

[01:16:09] And they provide, they really allow Rhodesia to extend their time and power by giving them access to international markets.

[01:16:16] Rhodesia can sell goods to Mozambique and will export Rhodesian goods through Mozambique.

[01:16:20] Which does extend the brutal colonial war in Rhodesia by a period of time.

[01:16:25] None of this, though, is an understatement.

[01:16:26] Nor is it enough to stop the winds of change blowing through Africa.

[01:16:29] Nor is it enough to stop the ravages of time from impacting Salazar.

[01:16:33] In 1968, he suffered a cerebral hemorrhage, which may have happened when he fell from a chair or in the bath.

[01:16:38] Right?

[01:16:39] Either way, he declines rapidly and he has to be put into a coma.

[01:16:43] Now, naturally, if he’s in a coma, he can’t be the dictator anymore.

[01:16:47] So his subordinates take over and they stop managing the state.

[01:16:49] I believe you’ve never seen the movie Dave.

[01:16:52] Yeah.

[01:16:53] Is that what Dave’s about?

[01:16:55] Yeah.

[01:16:55] You got to get a Portuguese Sigourney Weaver in there.

[01:17:00] And then you got to just find another guy that looks just like him.

[01:17:03] That’s actually what they do.

[01:17:04] So this is very funny.

[01:17:06] That’s literally the plot of Dave.

[01:17:07] He comes out of his coma after a month.

[01:17:10] And these guys who have been running things while he’s been in the coma are like, he’s too old.

[01:17:14] Let’s just lie.

[01:17:16] So they pretend he’s still running the country.

[01:17:19] And he gets to, like, sign paperwork and give out orders.

[01:17:21] And everyone’s just like, this is definitely what’s happening.

[01:17:24] You’re too sick to leave, right?

[01:17:26] You’re still in charge.

[01:17:28] Absolutely.

[01:17:29] And so for the last two years of his life, Salazar has no power.

[01:17:32] But he believes he’s running the country because they’re just pretending, right?

[01:17:36] While they’re doing things for him.

[01:17:38] It’s like the sad end of a movie that takes place in, like, Elizabethan England or something.

[01:17:43] Yeah.

[01:17:43] Yeah.

[01:17:43] Where they’re just, like, faking.

[01:17:44] Yeah.

[01:17:44] Like, yeah, buddy, you’re still running things.

[01:17:47] Absolutely.

[01:17:48] Like, why don’t you sign some more documents?

[01:17:50] Don’t go outside.

[01:17:51] Yeah.

[01:17:52] It’s like a crazy.

[01:17:54] Crazy guy in a Napoleon hat.

[01:17:56] Yeah.

[01:17:56] Moving pieces across the map.

[01:17:58] Well, they’re like, OK, we’re still holding on to all of that really well.

[01:18:02] That’s like a really funny thing to have happen in the age where, like, TV is around.

[01:18:06] He’s like a reverse weekend at Bernie’s where he’s still alive, technically.

[01:18:10] But yeah.

[01:18:11] So he continues to believe he’s in charge until his death on July 27th of 1970.

[01:18:17] His successors try to hold things together.

[01:18:20] But the calamitous colonial wars had bred a cadre of leftist military officers who are

[01:18:24] really unhappy with how the government’s working.

[01:18:27] And in April of 1974, they launched the mostly peaceful Carnation Revolution, which overthrows

[01:18:32] the regime and returns democracy to Portugal.

[01:18:35] And that’s where, you know, there’s more going on in Portuguese politics since then than

[01:18:39] just that.

[01:18:40] But, like, that’s how the dictatorship ends.

[01:18:42] Right.

[01:18:43] Yeah.

[01:18:44] Yeah.

[01:18:45] Good stuff.

[01:18:45] I would also like to add that this is a man that had two days of mourning for Hitler.

[01:18:50] Yeah.

[01:18:50] Yeah.

[01:18:50] This is the guy who’s, yeah, like, really bummed about that.

[01:18:54] Yeah.

[01:18:55] And, you know, people will say it’s part of why democracy is kind of able to, like, reform

[01:19:02] relatively easily and more successfully than a lot of areas in the wake of the dictatorship

[01:19:06] is he never completely eliminated all of the, like, trappings of democracy.

[01:19:11] So there were these institutions that continued to exist under him that it’s just a matter

[01:19:16] of, like, letting them have actual power again.

[01:19:19] But it’s also, like, not like he was overthrown, really.

[01:19:22] No, no.

[01:19:23] I mean, I know the Carnation Revolution.

[01:19:25] It’s going to be happening.

[01:19:26] Yes.

[01:19:26] That happened in 74.

[01:19:28] And, yeah, that is, like, an overthrowing.

[01:19:30] But it’s, like, not, there’s not, like, a fighting.

[01:19:33] Right.

[01:19:33] But if you’re like, oh, can you believe he outplayed himself?

[01:19:36] It’s like, I don’t know, man.

[01:19:37] He just went into a coma.

[01:19:38] Yeah.

[01:19:39] He kind of won, unfortunately.

[01:19:41] He just ended by being dead.

[01:19:44] Yeah.

[01:19:44] Yeah.

[01:19:45] He lives out his fucking days.

[01:19:46] Right.

[01:19:47] He fucking, he did it.

[01:19:48] Yeah.

[01:19:49] He does.

[01:19:50] The only win he, we kind of get against him is he’s aware the colonial empire is collapsing.

[01:19:55] Right.

[01:19:56] You know, he’s not, he’s not unaware of the fact that this isn’t working as well as he wants it to.

[01:20:02] But he never really sees that it’s fallen.

[01:20:05] He never really lives for everything to collapse entirely.

[01:20:08] He doesn’t see Portugal having a life without him, which is probably mostly what he wanted.

[01:20:13] Right.

[01:20:14] Yeah.

[01:20:15] He’s like, you guys can’t live without me.

[01:20:17] Yeah.

[01:20:17] Like, we can.

[01:20:18] And we will.

[01:20:19] Yeah.

[01:20:20] They’ll do just fine.

[01:20:21] But, unfortunately, yeah.

[01:20:23] A bummer.

[01:20:25] Thanks for the balanced budget.

[01:20:26] Yeah.

[01:20:27] Anyway, that’s the story of Salazar.

[01:20:31] Kind of a dick.

[01:20:32] Yeah.

[01:20:32] Kind of a dick.

[01:20:33] Not a nice man.

[01:20:34] I’m going to go out on a limb and say this guy may be a bit of a no-good Nick.

[01:20:37] Maybe a douche.

[01:20:38] Yeah.

[01:20:38] Maybe sucked.

[01:20:40] But pretty good at being a dictator, unfortunately.

[01:20:44] On a technical level, again, he gets that Oscar.

[01:20:46] Good for him.

[01:20:48] Good for him.

[01:20:49] Well, Jeff, on a technical level, do you want to plug any of your pluggables here?

[01:20:53] Yeah.

[01:20:53] I have a lot of stuff, folks.

[01:20:55] I do really cool stuff.

[01:20:56] My name’s Jeff May.

[01:20:57] And you can Google Jeff May Podcast if you want.

[01:21:00] But I have Jeff Has Cool.

[01:21:01] Over at Patreon.com slash Jeff May, I have shows like Jeff Has Cool Friends and Nerd,

[01:21:07] which end up going for free.

[01:21:09] But those both get early access on Sunday.

[01:21:11] So the whole Patreon benefits, right?

[01:21:14] I also do a show called The Monthly Flow with Andrea Gazzetta.

[01:21:19] I also do Tom and Jeff Watch Batman with Gamefully Unemployed Network.

[01:21:23] I do all the stuff on the You Don’t Even Like This Network with Adam Todd Brown.

[01:21:28] And I have a great, great channel on YouTube called Jeff Has Cool Cards,

[01:21:34] where I open trading cards on camera and like, oh, that’s neat.

[01:21:37] And people like that.

[01:21:38] And I do.

[01:21:39] And then I mail them out to my patrons.

[01:21:41] Because that’s nice.

[01:21:43] I run a stand-up comedy show the second Friday of every month at Blast in the Past

[01:21:47] on Magnolia in Burbank, California.

[01:21:49] So come check that out.

[01:21:51] And I’m on the socials.

[01:21:52] Check it out.

[01:21:54] Hey there, Jeff Rowe and variations of that.

[01:21:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:21:56] Excellent.

[01:21:57] Well, everybody, this has been Behind the Bastards,

[01:22:00] a podcast that you’ve just listened to.

[01:22:03] And now you’ll listen to more of it.

[01:22:05] You know?

[01:22:06] Now you’ll listen to more of it.

[01:22:08] Yeah.

[01:22:08] Keep doing it.

[01:22:09] Keep listening.

[01:22:10] Do it.

[01:22:10] And we’ll keep telling you about guys who sucked.

[01:22:13] Sometimes in Portugal, sometimes in other places.

[01:22:16] Usually in other places.

[01:22:17] Sometimes a lady that sucks.

[01:22:18] It’s occasionally a lady, yeah.

[01:22:19] We get ladies on this show every now and then.

[01:22:22] A sucky lady every once in a while.

[01:22:23] A couple of them.

[01:22:25] A couple of them.

[01:22:25] A bathory showing up every once in a while.

[01:22:27] Women out there, you know, if you want to be on Behind the Bastards,

[01:22:30] take over a country and kill hundreds of thousands of people, you know?

[01:22:34] Create your own torture police.

[01:22:35] You know, women have been strong.

[01:22:37] They’re stronger than ever.

[01:22:38] That’s right.

[01:22:39] You know what?

[01:22:40] Initiative, ladies.

[01:22:40] You’ve got to dictate.

[01:22:42] Yeah.

[01:22:43] Just murder.

[01:22:43] Get people to inject bleach into their children, you know?

[01:22:46] You can do it.

[01:22:47] I believe in you.

[01:22:48] No, the podcast’s over.

[01:22:49] No.

[01:22:49] I was with you, but no.

[01:22:51] No.

[01:22:51] No.

[01:22:51] No.

[01:22:51] No.

[01:22:51] No.

[01:22:51] No.

[01:22:51] No.

[01:22:52] No.

[01:22:52] No.

[01:22:53] No.

[01:22:53] No.

[01:22:53] Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.

[01:22:57] For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com,

[01:23:01] or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

[01:23:05] or wherever you get your podcasts.

[01:23:07] Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube.

[01:23:09] New episodes every Wednesday and Friday.

[01:23:12] Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards.

[01:23:18] When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on?

[01:23:22] Biggie.

[01:23:22] You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable?

[01:23:24] Because I want to get confident.

[01:23:25] This is DJ Hester Prynne’s Music is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist.

[01:23:32] 12 months, 12 areas of your life.

[01:23:34] Money, love, career, confidence.

[01:23:36] This isn’t just a podcast.

[01:23:38] It’s unconventional therapy for your entire year.

[01:23:42] Listen to DJ Hester Prynne’s Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

[01:23:47] wherever you get your podcasts.

[01:23:48] This is Rider Strong, and I have a new podcast called The Red Weather.

[01:23:52] In 1995, my neighbor and a trainer disappeared from a commune.

[01:23:56] It was nature and trees and praying and drugs.

[01:24:00] So no, I am not your guru.

[01:24:04] Back then, I lied to everybody.

[01:24:06] They have had this case for 30 years.

[01:24:09] I’m going back to my hometown to uncover the truth.

[01:24:13] Listen to The Red Weather on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[01:24:19] When segregation was a law,

[01:24:21] one mysterious Black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald, had his own rules.

[01:24:26] Segregation in the day, integration at night.

[01:24:29] It was like stepping out of another world.

[01:24:31] Was he a businessman?

[01:24:33] A criminal?

[01:24:34] A hero?

[01:24:35] Charlie was an example of power.

[01:24:38] They had to crush him.

[01:24:40] Charlie’s Place, from Atlas Obscura and Visit Myrtle Beach.

[01:24:44] Listen to Charlie’s Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[01:24:48] Hey, everyone.

[01:24:50] It’s Emily Simpson.

[01:24:51] And Shane Simpson from the Legally Brunette podcast.

[01:24:54] Each week, we’re bringing you true crime through a legal lens.

[01:24:57] Whether you want all the facts on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie,

[01:25:01] or you still need to wrap your head around the Diddy verdict,

[01:25:04] we’re breaking it all down step by step.

[01:25:07] And we’re not just lawyers.

[01:25:08] We’re also husband and wife.

[01:25:10] It makes for some pretty entertaining episodes.

[01:25:13] Listen to Legally Brunette on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[01:25:19] This is an iHeart podcast.

[01:25:21] Guaranteed human.

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