How to Eat with Awareness and Purpose (w/ Sean Sherman)
Summary
Host Chris Duffy interviews Chef Sean Sherman at his award-winning Minneapolis restaurant, Awamni, to explore the profound connections between food, culture, and history. Sherman, a Lakota chef and founder of The Sioux Chef and the nonprofit NATIFS (North American Traditional Indigenous Food Systems), explains his philosophy of creating modern indigenous cuisine by intentionally removing colonial ingredients like dairy, wheat flour, cane sugar, and introduced meats. He frames food as a powerful vehicle for storytelling, education, and reclaiming cultural identity.
Sherman delves into the deliberate historical erasure of indigenous foodways, linking it to broader colonial policies of assimilation, land theft, and cultural suppression. He discusses the devastating impact of government commodity food programs on Native communities, which contributed to health crises by replacing traditional, nutrient-dense diets with processed foods. The conversation positions food sovereignty—the ability for communities to control their own food production—as a critical path toward empowerment, health, and self-determination for indigenous peoples.
The episode examines the restaurant Awamni as a practical model for change. It serves as an educational tool, a job creator, and a mechanism for directing economic resources to indigenous producers. Sherman highlights the immense botanical diversity of North America that is often ignored by Western diets and explains how reconnecting with regional, seasonal, and culturally relevant ingredients is an act of resistance and revival. He connects this work to a global indigenous movement seen in literature, film, and other arts.
Finally, the discussion broadens to consider food as a universal language capable of bridging human divides. Sherman contrasts the divisive, extractive values of colonization with indigenous values of community, environmental stewardship, and intergenerational knowledge sharing. He argues that decolonizing our plates is not about recreating a museum-piece past, but about applying ancestral wisdom to build a healthier, more connected, and equitable future for all.
Recommendations
Books
- Turtle Island: Foods and Traditions of the Indigenous Peoples of North America — Sean Sherman’s newest cookbook, mentioned at the end of the episode as a resource for learning about indigenous food traditions.
- There There by Tommy Orange — Referenced by Chris Duffy as an example of the emerging wave of indigenous representation in literature.
Media
- Reservation Dogs — A TV show cited as part of the resurgence of indigenous representation and storytelling in popular media.
- Sean Sherman’s YouTube Channel (via NATIFS) — Sherman mentions their YouTube channel has over 180 educational videos uploaded, largely focusing on indigenous foodways.
Organizations
- NATIFS (North American Traditional Indigenous Food Systems) — Sean Sherman’s nonprofit organization focused on indigenous food sovereignty, education, and creating access to traditional foods. The website is natives.org.
- The Sioux Chef — Sean Sherman’s brand and culinary initiative dedicated to revitalizing Native American cuisine.
Places
- Restaurant Awamni — Sean Sherman’s award-winning indigenous restaurant in Minneapolis, Minnesota, which operates as part of the NATIFS nonprofit.
Topic Timeline
- 00:01:10 — Introduction: Food as Memory and Connection — Host Chris Duffy introduces the episode’s theme by reflecting on how food connects us to family, memory, and emotional history. He notes that while we often delight in new flavors, we rarely learn the deeper context, history, and systems behind our food. He introduces today’s guest, Chef Sean Sherman, who uses food to talk about Native American culture and indigenous values.
- 00:06:11 — Sean Sherman Introduces Himself and Awamni Restaurant — Sean Sherman introduces himself and his location at his restaurant, Awamni, in Minneapolis. He explains the meaning of ‘Awamni Omni’ (place of the falling, swirling water) and the colonial history that destroyed the original waterfall. He describes the restaurant’s founding philosophy: to showcase modern indigenous food by removing colonial ingredients and focusing on what was in North America first.
- 00:10:20 — The Deliberate Erasure of Indigenous Food and History — Sherman states that the lack of Native American restaurants and knowledge of indigenous cuisine is not accidental, but part of a conscious program to erase indigenous history and culture. He traces this erasure from the beginning of colonization through the violent 19th century and into the assimilation policies of boarding schools. He explains how these historical traumas manufactured the poverty and segregation seen on reservations today.
- 00:12:20 — Food Sovereignty as a Path to Power and Health — Sherman explains why food is a powerful tool for pushing back against this history. He advocates for food sovereignty, where tribes control their own food production, from growing and harvesting to preservation. He emphasizes that this work is not about recreating a museum piece of the past (pre-1491), but about adopting ancestral knowledge to build a better future. He states, ‘If we can control our food, we can control the power that we have for our future.’
- 00:17:48 — Defining Colonial vs. Indigenous Ingredients — Sherman humorously identifies ‘ranch dressing’ as a colonial ingredient. He systematically defines colonial ingredients as those introduced to the Americas, such as wheat flour, dairy, cane sugar, and introduced livestock. In contrast, indigenous diets focus on wild proteins, a vast diversity of regional plants, and pre-colonial agriculture. He notes that by removing these colonial ingredients, the food at Awamni is naturally gluten-free, dairy-free, and sugar-free.
- 00:20:58 — Growing Up on Commodity Food and Health Impacts — Sherman describes growing up on the Pine Ridge Reservation with a diet heavily reliant on USDA commodity foods: canned vegetables packed in sodium, canned fruits in corn syrup, powdered milk, and empty carbs. He directly links this government-provided, processed food to the health issues prevalent in Native communities today, providing a personal context for his mission.
- 00:22:17 — The Success and Impact of Restaurant Awamni — Sherman discusses the success of Awamni, which has been sold out nightly since 2021 and won the James Beard Award for Best New Restaurant. He highlights the skilled team that has grown from the project and his ability to step back from daily kitchen work to focus on broader advocacy. The restaurant is part of his nonprofit and serves as a tool to create jobs, build skills, and intentionally direct over half a million dollars a year to indigenous producers.
- 00:25:34 — The Wave of Indigenous Representation and Creativity — The conversation turns to the broader cultural resurgence of indigenous representation in media, citing authors like Tommy Orange and shows like ‘Reservation Dogs.’ Sherman acknowledges there is political pushback but feels positive about the creativity and thought leadership emerging from Native communities over the past decade. He sees his culinary work as part of this movement to change perceptions and build empathy.
- 00:28:12 — Personal Food Memories and Normalizing Indigenous Cuisine — Sherman shares personal food memories that connect him to home and family, specifically choke cherries and the sauce ‘wojapi’ made from them, which reminds him of his grandmother’s kitchen. He expresses a desire to see indigenous foods normalized for future generations so they are part of daily life, not just special occasions, and discusses raising his son with critical thinking about food choices and cultural relevance.
- 00:31:35 — Contrasting Colonial and Indigenous Values — Sherman contrasts the values of colonization (division, dehumanization, land theft, resource extraction) with indigenous values (community, ensuring everyone has enough, passing down traditions, environmental respect). He notes that colonization is a global, ongoing phenomenon. The solution, he argues, lies in re-embracing older, community-focused ways of living and having direct, human conversations about our fundamental needs: clean water, healthy food, and truthful education.
- 00:33:36 — Food as a Universal Language to Bridge Divides — In the final segment, Duffy points out the common disconnect where people enjoy foods from other cultures but don’t care for the people who make it. Sherman attributes this to persistent segregation but argues that food is a powerful, common language. He believes that learning to talk and share meals with people different from ourselves is key to seeing the beauty in diversity and pulling communities together.
Episode Info
- Podcast: How to Be a Better Human
- Author: TED
- Category: Education Self-Improvement
- Published: 2025-11-24T05:00:00Z
- Duration: 00:33:13
References
- URL PocketCasts: https://pocketcasts.com/podcast/ec3a1f40-21ce-0139-32b5-0acc26574db2/episode/b916fcce-bc7d-4bb7-b6f0-1d57c5a118d1
- Episode UUID: b916fcce-bc7d-4bb7-b6f0-1d57c5a118d1
Podcast Info
- Name: How to Be a Better Human
- Type: episodic
- Site: https://play.prx.org/listen?uf=https%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.feedburner.com%2FHowToBeABetterHuman
- UUID: ec3a1f40-21ce-0139-32b5-0acc26574db2
Transcript
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[00:00:28] T’s and C’s apply.
[00:00:30] For years, I’ve sounded like a broken record.
[00:00:33] I do not want kids.
[00:00:34] I do not ever want to have kids.
[00:00:36] I don’t want to have a kid. Don’t want to have a kid. Don’t want to have a kid.
[00:00:38] I’m in my 40s now. The door is almost closed.
[00:00:42] And suddenly, I’m not so sure.
[00:00:45] The story has always been no.
[00:00:48] I’m just wondering to what degree it’s just a story.
[00:00:52] Definitely just a story.
[00:00:53] From CBC’s Personally, this is Creation Myth.
[00:00:57] Available now wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:01:00] CREATION MYSTERY
[00:01:02] You’re listening to How to Be a Better Human.
[00:01:10] I’m your host, Chris Duffy.
[00:01:11] If you were to ask me to give you a list of things that immediately make me feel like home,
[00:01:16] things that make me know I’m with my family,
[00:01:19] a very large part of my list would be food-based.
[00:01:22] A fresh everything bagel with thin-sliced nova and cream cheese.
[00:01:26] My mom’s brisket.
[00:01:27] A glass of Werner’s ginger ale.
[00:01:29] A glass of vodka.
[00:01:30] Food has this powerful way of connecting us to our memories and our emotional histories.
[00:01:35] It can also be a way to explore and to learn.
[00:01:37] I don’t think I know anyone who hasn’t delighted in tasting something new for the very first time,
[00:01:44] whether it’s delicious homemade Korean kimchi or West African mafe stew or just a fresh-baked
[00:01:50] slice of bread.
[00:01:51] But it can be rarer for us to learn about the context and the history that surrounds that food.
[00:01:57] The systems that enable ingredients to make a good meal.
[00:01:59] The systems that make their way to our plates.
[00:02:01] And the culture and choices that determine what it is we taste.
[00:02:05] But we, even just as individuals, we have the power to change that.
[00:02:10] We can get curious about what we’re eating and learn about where it’s coming from
[00:02:14] and the history of those flavors.
[00:02:16] Today’s guest, Chef Sean Sherman, is helping us to do that.
[00:02:20] He’s inviting us all to think about our dinner plates differently.
[00:02:24] Sean uses his critically acclaimed food as a vehicle to talk about his Native American culture.
[00:02:29] To talk about his culture.
[00:02:29] To talk about indigenous lives and values.
[00:02:32] And to highlight the past, present, and future of what it means to be Native in the United States
[00:02:37] and across the globe.
[00:02:39] Here’s a clip from Sean’s TED Talk.
[00:02:41] People in the media are always like, you’re Native, like what kind of foods did you grow up with?
[00:02:45] Because they want to hear a cool story.
[00:02:46] Like, oh, I’d get up in the morning, take down an elk with a slingshot I made.
[00:02:49] We’d have a big family feast, you know.
[00:02:51] But that wasn’t the reality, you know.
[00:02:52] Because like, I grew up with a commodity food program because we were poor like a lot of people
[00:02:57] on the reservation.
[00:02:58] And it’s just the way it was.
[00:02:59] And we didn’t even have that.
[00:02:59] We didn’t have the pretty cans when I was growing up.
[00:03:01] We just had these like black and white cans, just beef and juices.
[00:03:05] And that’s dinner, you know.
[00:03:05] And that sucks.
[00:03:07] So, and Indian tacos, you know, like even when I was a kid, it was like, why does our Lakota food taste like Mexican food?
[00:03:14] You know, it didn’t even make sense to me at the time.
[00:03:16] But we could do better than this.
[00:03:18] There’s so much more to learn and more to offer with indigenous foods.
[00:03:21] But first you have to understand just like how diverse our nation is.
[00:03:24] Like, we’re so diverse.
[00:03:25] There’s all sorts of plants and animals out there.
[00:03:28] And when you layer indigenous peoples on it.
[00:03:29] You can see so much amazing diversity.
[00:03:32] Still today we have 634 tribes in Canada, 573 in the U.S.
[00:03:37] And 20% of Mexico identifies as indigenous.
[00:03:40] So there’s an immense amount of indigeneity out there today.
[00:03:43] And we should be celebrating that diversity because it’s awesome.
[00:03:46] We are the stewards of what’s left of this diversity.
[00:03:49] And a lot of it got wiped off the map in the 1800s with all that colonialism that was going on.
[00:03:54] So we have to be understanding so we can protect these for the next generation.
[00:03:58] Because these could disappear.
[00:03:59] If we don’t do anything about it, you know, so it’s really important to understand that.
[00:04:03] We need to be celebrating diversity instead of trying to build stupid walls to keep people out, right?
[00:04:08] We need to be better connected to our nature around us and really truly understand it’s a symbiotic relationship.
[00:04:14] If we can control our food, we can control our future.
[00:04:17] And for us, it’s an exciting time to be indigenous because we are taking all of these lessons from our ancestors that should have been passed down to us, relearning them and utilizing the world today with everything it has to offer.
[00:04:29] And becoming something different.
[00:04:31] This is an indigenous evolution and revolution at the same time.
[00:04:38] We’re going to be talking with Sean in person at his restaurant, Awamani, about this evolution and this revolution in just a moment.
[00:04:45] So don’t go anywhere.
[00:04:47] But first, a quick break.
[00:04:59] This podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.
[00:05:06] With Wise, you can send, spend and receive in over 40 currencies with no markups or hidden fees.
[00:05:12] Whether you’re sending pounds across the pond, spending reals in Rio or getting paid in dollars for your side gig, you’ll get the mid-market exchange rates on every transaction.
[00:05:21] Join 15 million customers internationally.
[00:05:24] Be smart.
[00:05:25] Get Wise.
[00:05:26] Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.
[00:05:29] T’s and C’s apply.
[00:05:31] For years, I’ve sounded like a broken record.
[00:05:33] I do not want kids.
[00:05:35] I do not ever want to have kids.
[00:05:36] I don’t want to have a kid.
[00:05:37] Don’t want to have a kid.
[00:05:38] Don’t want to have a kid.
[00:05:39] I’m in my 40s now.
[00:05:40] The door is almost closed.
[00:05:43] And suddenly, I’m not so sure.
[00:05:46] The story has always been no.
[00:05:48] I’m just wondering to what degree it’s just a story.
[00:05:52] Definitely just a story.
[00:05:54] From CBC’s Personally, this is Creation Myth.
[00:05:58] Available now.
[00:05:59] Wherever you are.
[00:05:59] Wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:06:05] Today, we are talking with Chef Sean Sherman about food, culture, and context.
[00:06:11] Hi, my name is Sean Sherman.
[00:06:12] I am here in Minneapolis, Minnesota at our restaurant, Awamni.
[00:06:16] I am the executive director and founder of our nonprofit, Natives, which is North American Traditional Indigenous Food Systems, and my brand, The Sioux Chef.
[00:06:23] So, Sean, where are we today?
[00:06:24] So, we are in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
[00:06:26] And we are right outside of the Mississippi River.
[00:06:30] And it’s a really special location.
[00:06:31] In the Dakota language, it was called Awamni Omni because there used to be this massive waterfall right outside this window.
[00:06:38] And it used to be about 300 feet across and about 40-foot drop.
[00:06:41] And you can kind of see the water levels when you are looking out at the river from here to there.
[00:06:45] But here at the restaurant, when we named it Awamni, we just took the short name of the original namespace of what is around this waterfall area.
[00:06:52] And the original waterfall is no longer here because during the colonial history,
[00:06:55] a lot of mills popped up in this area and a lot of tunnels and things were drawn.
[00:07:00] And it ruined the natural features of the waterfall.
[00:07:02] So, we see a lock and dam and some concrete skirting.
[00:07:05] But this is still a really special place.
[00:07:07] And that’s where we are.
[00:07:08] And what does Awamni Omni mean?
[00:07:10] Place of the falling, swirling water.
[00:07:13] So, this is your restaurant here.
[00:07:16] And it’s won a bunch of awards.
[00:07:19] It’s gotten a bunch of acclaim.
[00:07:20] What makes this different than other restaurants in the Twin Cities?
[00:07:23] Well, we wanted to feature.
[00:07:24] Kind of our vision of modern indigenous food.
[00:07:27] And we leaned into the philosophy that I’ve been utilizing for quite some time.
[00:07:30] So, the philosophy was basically in order to showcase what are indigenous foods to North America.
[00:07:35] We took away colonial ingredients.
[00:07:37] So, we removed things like dairy, wheat flour, cane sugar, beef, pork, chicken.
[00:07:41] And just really focused on what was here first.
[00:07:43] And built entire menus around that.
[00:07:45] On top of that, just featuring indigenous products from indigenous producers first.
[00:07:49] Because we want to make sure our food dollars are intentionally going to who we want to support.
[00:07:53] So, it’s just a.
[00:07:54] It’s a unique and different restaurant, you know.
[00:07:56] And we believe that there should be Native American, indigenous restaurants all over, everywhere.
[00:08:01] But, you know, unfortunately, this is something super unique.
[00:08:04] But we’re very proud of what we’ve built.
[00:08:05] I’ve heard you sometimes refer to the food that you serve as ironically foreign.
[00:08:08] Right.
[00:08:09] It’s true.
[00:08:10] I mean, because a lot of people are very unaware of, like, so much of, especially the botany around us.
[00:08:15] You know, I feel like proteins are easy because, like, any animal you could eat.
[00:08:18] Don’t recommend all of them.
[00:08:20] But it’s possible because that’s protein.
[00:08:22] But as far as, like, the, you know, vegetation.
[00:08:24] And.
[00:08:24] And where the botanicals go.
[00:08:25] Like, the Western diet is kind of ignored so much of what is just this amazing bounty of what is in North America.
[00:08:31] And indigenous diets are really focused on a lot of that plant diversity.
[00:08:34] And we really highlight and showcase a lot of that in our menus today.
[00:08:37] So, it’s foreign because it’s foreign to many people who haven’t grown up eating it.
[00:08:42] Absolutely.
[00:08:43] And because our Western diets are really, obviously, industrialized.
[00:08:47] And, you know, it’s a part of the, you know, just what’s in the grocery store.
[00:08:50] That’s where food comes from.
[00:08:51] But, you know, from an indigenous perspective.
[00:08:53] When you look outside.
[00:08:54] There’s just food all around us constantly.
[00:08:56] If you know what to look for, you know.
[00:08:58] And I think that’s part of the education that we’re attempting to highlight through the food.
[00:09:02] Is just showing that there’s so much plant.
[00:09:04] So much diversity.
[00:09:05] So much health and nutrition that’s all around us.
[00:09:07] And that we could really be looking at the regional and cultural differences all over what is the United States and North America and beyond.
[00:09:15] So, that’s one of the reasons why I’m really excited to talk to you.
[00:09:18] Is because it’s not just about serving a delicious meal.
[00:09:22] I mean, that is a part of it.
[00:09:23] But that’s really a way to get people in.
[00:09:25] And thinking about some of these much bigger issues.
[00:09:28] Yeah.
[00:09:29] I mean, it’s food with story.
[00:09:30] You know.
[00:09:31] So, I think when you have food with story.
[00:09:32] It’s really powerful.
[00:09:33] And that’s what we attempt to do.
[00:09:34] Because we change the menu quite consistently.
[00:09:36] We usually change them around the solstices and equinoxes.
[00:09:39] Because those are very definitive like seasonal changes, you know.
[00:09:42] But we just want to showcase like what’s seasonal.
[00:09:44] What’s local.
[00:09:45] What’s regional.
[00:09:46] What’s coming from indigenous producers.
[00:09:48] What’s wild.
[00:09:49] And just like telling all that story through the plant.
[00:09:51] Because, again.
[00:09:52] There should be Native American restaurants everywhere.
[00:09:54] Especially in the U.S.
[00:09:55] Because no matter where you are.
[00:09:57] American history starts with Native American peoples.
[00:10:00] And we’re typically completely left out of that whole situation, you know.
[00:10:04] And food is such an important storyteller.
[00:10:06] Food is something that people can connect with.
[00:10:08] And, you know.
[00:10:09] We just see it as an amazing tool.
[00:10:11] The fact that there aren’t Native American restaurants.
[00:10:13] And the fact that there is not a lot of knowledge of indigenous cuisine.
[00:10:18] It’s not accidental.
[00:10:21] No.
[00:10:22] It’s a conscious program to try and erase indigenous history.
[00:10:28] To try and erase Native American culture.
[00:10:30] Absolutely.
[00:10:31] I mean the erasure of indigenous peoples in the Americas has been something that’s been ongoing for quite a while.
[00:10:36] You know.
[00:10:37] So you can date that back to, you know, the beginning of colonization.
[00:10:41] You know.
[00:10:42] Back in the late 1400s.
[00:10:43] And with Christopher Columbus.
[00:10:45] You know.
[00:10:46] Who never actually stepped foot in what is the United States today.
[00:10:49] But is still like highly revered.
[00:10:51] Right?
[00:10:52] But again, you know.
[00:10:53] I focus mainly on just the United States government.
[00:10:55] Because that’s where we live today.
[00:10:57] And it’s a short history of the United States government.
[00:10:59] You know.
[00:11:00] Because they don’t form until the very late 1700s.
[00:11:03] And even in the 1800s and the early 1800s.
[00:11:05] Like the majority of what is North America is still under indigenous stewardship.
[00:11:09] As it always had been.
[00:11:11] And during that time period many indigenous communities hadn’t even seen European people yet.
[00:11:15] And so I look at that one century of 1800 to 1900.
[00:11:18] Which is extremely aggressive.
[00:11:19] Extremely violent.
[00:11:20] Extremely racist.
[00:11:21] And so many really awful things happened to indigenous peoples during this push from the American government to push westward.
[00:11:28] And to take over a lot of that land space.
[00:11:30] And growing up Lakota on Pine Ridge.
[00:11:32] Like, you know, it’s only a couple generations ago.
[00:11:35] So my great grandfather, for example, was at Battle of Little Bighorn when he was 18.
[00:11:40] And like my grandparents were the first generation of kids to have to go through assimilation processes.
[00:11:45] Through boarding schools.
[00:11:46] To cut their hair.
[00:11:47] To learn English.
[00:11:48] To learn Christianity.
[00:11:49] And to basically be stripped of culture completely.
[00:11:52] You know, so a lot of those pieces are a part of the story of why we don’t see Native American restaurants everywhere.
[00:11:57] And, you know, when you look at the 1900s onwards they’re still living in segregation.
[00:12:02] Living in oppression.
[00:12:04] Living in poverty.
[00:12:05] And all these things are manufactured.
[00:12:07] You know, because we were just basically put onto reservation systems which are still segregated communities today.
[00:12:13] And there’s just been a lot of issues there.
[00:12:15] And very little work.
[00:12:16] You know.
[00:12:17] And why food as a way to push back against that whole history?
[00:12:20] I just feel like food is something really powerful.
[00:12:22] And food sovereignty is what we really push towards.
[00:12:24] Because if we can get tribes to really consider that there is a path to control their own food.
[00:12:29] To be able to grow their own food.
[00:12:30] To harvest their own food.
[00:12:31] To preserve their own food.
[00:12:32] To make more than enough food for their entire community with the spaces that they have.
[00:12:36] And even in all the different environments all over the United States.
[00:12:39] There’s plenty of ways to work towards that.
[00:12:42] And I think that if we can control our food we can really control the power that we have for our future.
[00:12:47] You know.
[00:12:48] And so I just really hope people can see that we can learn so much from our ancestors.
[00:12:52] Because we’re not trying to create food that’s a museum piece.
[00:12:55] And trying to go backwards to 1491.
[00:12:57] Of what were we eating long before European settlers showed up.
[00:13:00] We’re looking at the future of like how can we adopt a lot of the knowledge base from our ancestors.
[00:13:06] Apply that to what we know today.
[00:13:08] And how do we think about the future.
[00:13:10] Because we have every single day we’re alive we can think about changing the future.
[00:13:14] Something that I think is really inspiring to me.
[00:13:16] About your work.
[00:13:17] And also really interesting like intellectually too.
[00:13:20] Is that a lot of people have this interest in the kind of food that you make.
[00:13:28] Right.
[00:13:29] Like food that is more connected to a healthier past.
[00:13:34] To less processed.
[00:13:36] To not including all these dangerous additives.
[00:13:38] But a lot of the people who are most interested in that also don’t have a curiosity about the context.
[00:13:44] And the history of it.
[00:13:45] Right.
[00:13:46] And the thing that I love about you is that you are both making this really delicious important nutritious food.
[00:13:53] But you’re insisting on the history and the context of where it came from and what it means.
[00:13:58] I just think you know history is so important.
[00:14:00] And unfortunately if we grow up in America we don’t learn about American history.
[00:14:04] You know we were taught a very colonial approach to that story.
[00:14:08] And there’s nothing that really addresses a lot of the hardships that other people go through.
[00:14:13] If you don’t happen to be a white Christian male particularly.
[00:14:15] And so there’s a lot of issues in American history that get blown over.
[00:14:19] And you know we’re living in a time period where it’s very political.
[00:14:22] Where there’s a lot of political figures trying to erase further people of color.
[00:14:28] And the histories that we have gone through just to be alive today.
[00:14:31] So especially when we’re looking at black and indigenous and American history.
[00:14:34] You know like our histories are in danger of being erased all the time.
[00:14:38] As they always have been.
[00:14:40] So I think it’s really important to talk about history because we can really learn so much.
[00:14:44] And it’s not trying to make people feel bad for what happened in history.
[00:14:47] Because history can be really painful.
[00:14:49] It’s just addressing it for what it is.
[00:14:51] Naming it for what it is.
[00:14:52] And identifying the trauma that’s been created from a lot of these histories.
[00:14:56] I am talking to you right now in a moment in the United States.
[00:15:00] When one of the central political issues right now is the question of who is allowed to be here.
[00:15:08] And who is supposed to be here.
[00:15:10] And that obviously is something that you have been thinking about for a long time.
[00:15:14] Of who is allowed to be on this land and who is supposed to be on this land.
[00:15:17] You know when you understand history like colonial borders are these made up lines.
[00:15:22] And governments are holding on to colonial powers.
[00:15:26] Because colonization is just the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country.
[00:15:32] Occupying with settlers and just exploiting it economically.
[00:15:36] And so when you look at colonization it’s happened all over the place.
[00:15:39] And you know our governmental systems all over the world.
[00:15:42] But especially in the Americas.
[00:15:44] Are built to support that colonial mindset.
[00:15:47] Of continuously just like ruining the environment.
[00:15:50] Moving around people of color.
[00:15:52] Dividing people by race.
[00:15:54] Dividing people by religion.
[00:15:56] And all these principles that really have no values when it comes to what does it mean to be a human.
[00:16:00] You know because as humans like we should all understand how connected we are.
[00:16:04] Because we all live on this planet.
[00:16:06] We all should understand how the environment affects us and is a part of everything that we do.
[00:16:10] And if we look at indigenous values of things.
[00:16:12] Like it kind of understands a lot of those pieces of that close relationship to plants.
[00:16:17] To environment.
[00:16:18] To the protection of clean water.
[00:16:20] Things like that that are just basic human rights.
[00:16:22] You know.
[00:16:23] But you know the colonization and the capitalization that’s out there.
[00:16:26] Like the people in charge want to keep that power.
[00:16:29] But we just see like the Americas as a beautiful space with so much amazing beautiful indigenous diversity.
[00:16:35] And we should really embrace that diversity.
[00:16:38] And learn how to try and protect it instead of trying to homogenize it constantly.
[00:16:42] That’s been going on for a few hundred years now.
[00:16:45] So there are hundreds of Native American tribes.
[00:16:49] 574 in the United States.
[00:16:51] 622 in Canada.
[00:16:53] And 20% of Mexico identifies as indigenous.
[00:16:55] But there’s obviously way more indigeneity down there because you can just see it in the DNA.
[00:16:59] And so when you think about what it means to have a Native American cuisine.
[00:17:03] Or a Native American dish.
[00:17:05] Is that even possible?
[00:17:07] Or is it a specific like Lakota dish?
[00:17:11] It’s very specific tribal dishes.
[00:17:13] Because a lot of tribes come from very specific regions obviously.
[00:17:16] You know.
[00:17:17] So when we look at that beautiful diversity of not only what were people eating.
[00:17:20] But how did their culture affect that a little bit.
[00:17:22] Because there could be different groups from different tribes speaking different languages.
[00:17:26] Utilizing the same region with some of the same ingredients.
[00:17:29] But they have different cultural you know intentions with how their food is.
[00:17:33] And meanings behind certain things too.
[00:17:35] So it’s important just to understand the beauty of all of that diversity.
[00:17:38] Because like North America.
[00:17:40] Which has been our main focus of basically looking at Mexico through Alaska.
[00:17:44] And just looking at all that beautiful diversity.
[00:17:46] And what’s a colonial ingredient?
[00:17:48] Ranch dressing.
[00:17:50] Okay.
[00:17:52] Hard to argue with that.
[00:17:53] Even the name.
[00:17:54] You know when we’re identifying what’s colonial.
[00:17:56] We’re talking about things that were introduced to the Americas that didn’t exist here before.
[00:17:59] Which is again like why we removed things like wheat flour.
[00:18:02] Which wasn’t from here.
[00:18:03] Dairy products.
[00:18:04] Because dairy in the Americas was for child rearing.
[00:18:07] So like.
[00:18:08] Most people lose the enzyme to break down lactose by the time you’re like 11 or 12 anyways.
[00:18:13] Because we just.
[00:18:14] Like in our DNA just didn’t have the ability to keep producing those enzymes.
[00:18:19] And you know things like cane sugar.
[00:18:21] And just things that were introduced to the Americas.
[00:18:24] And so we look for what’s here.
[00:18:26] Like we look at the proteins that were here.
[00:18:28] Which is all the animals.
[00:18:29] Like wild animals.
[00:18:30] Fish.
[00:18:31] Birds.
[00:18:32] Insects.
[00:18:33] Anything that people were eating for protein.
[00:18:34] But then we’re also looking at vegetation of all the wild knowledge of plants.
[00:18:37] Because there’s so much cool stuff out there all around us.
[00:18:40] Because just like where we are in the Great Lakes.
[00:18:42] We have all sorts of edible parts of trees.
[00:18:45] And roots.
[00:18:46] And flowers.
[00:18:47] And herbs.
[00:18:48] And moss.
[00:18:49] And lichens.
[00:18:50] And all mushrooms.
[00:18:51] And all sorts of things that are out there.
[00:18:52] And then we also look at the agricultural aspect.
[00:18:54] Because there’s a vast area of North America that was really highly advanced in agriculture for so long.
[00:19:00] And we do learn the story of how indigenous peoples here taught the colonizers how to farm with their agricultural practices.
[00:19:06] You know.
[00:19:07] It becomes a global situation eventually.
[00:19:09] And people take that for granted.
[00:19:10] A lot of the foods that came from the Americas have been normalized all across the globe.
[00:19:14] You know.
[00:19:15] Because like what is Italy without polenta.
[00:19:17] Or chocolate.
[00:19:18] Or vanilla.
[00:19:19] Or any of those kinds.
[00:19:20] Or tomatoes.
[00:19:21] Or chili peppers.
[00:19:22] You know.
[00:19:23] In many parts of the world.
[00:19:24] So it’s just exploring for us.
[00:19:26] Like what is indigenous.
[00:19:27] And how do we want this to be perceived for the future.
[00:19:30] Like how do we want future generations.
[00:19:32] And for us we’re holding on to the health aspect.
[00:19:34] Because by removing those colonial ingredients.
[00:19:36] The food.
[00:19:37] Like everything at this restaurant is gluten free, dairy free, sugar free, soy free, pork free.
[00:19:41] And it’s like what every fad diet is trying to get to.
[00:19:43] And it just happens to be the indigenous diet of North America.
[00:19:50] We are going to take a quick break.
[00:19:51] And then we will be back with more from Sean in just a moment.
[00:20:06] Thank you very much.
[00:20:20] And we are back with Chef Sean Sherman.
[00:20:48] Growing up on Pine Ridge Reservation, what was the kind of food that you were starting with and how did you use that start to get to where you are now?
[00:20:58] Well, I mean, we grew up in a very segregated and colonial state, you know, and like we were separated from a lot of the rest of the U.S. because we’re so rural, you know, and I grew up out in the middle of the country.
[00:21:09] So we spent most of our time outside and I was mostly a product of a lot of commodity food and EFDPIR program coming out of the USDA.
[00:21:17] So we just had a lot of cans of government foods like canned vegetables that are packed in sodium, canned fruits that are packed in corn syrups, literally just gallons of corn syrup to utilize as a sweetener.
[00:21:27] And just like all of the and just a lot of empty carbs, powdered milks and just, you know, just a lot of stuff that’s just not great for us, a lot of over processed foods.
[00:21:36] And it’s led directly to a lot of these health issues that we talk about.
[00:21:39] We’ve been talking about how this food is not historic. It’s not a museum piece. It’s very much of the present.
[00:21:44] And part of that is I’m interviewing you right.
[00:21:47] Now, in a working restaurant, right, there’s a working kitchen right over there.
[00:21:50] We can hear and see people working.
[00:21:52] Absolutely. I mean, we’ve been very lucky that this vision has really worked out as well as it has.
[00:21:58] And, you know, we’ve basically have been sold out every single night since 2021.
[00:22:02] I mean, we’re very happy that it exists and we just hope that it has ripple effects of more influence out there in the world.
[00:22:08] So when I when I first interviewed you for the show, you were just getting ready to open this restaurant, to open a Omni.
[00:22:16] How has it been since then?
[00:22:17] What’s been happening?
[00:22:17] I mean, we’ve gotten a lot of success.
[00:22:20] We’ve won some major awards like Best New Restaurant in the United States by James Beard, which is a huge national award to win because there’s a lot of cool restaurants that open up every year.
[00:22:28] But to pull that top prize without ranch dressing, I thought it was a pretty big accomplishment.
[00:22:33] You know, that’s normally what James Beard is looking for.
[00:22:35] Exactly right. And so and we’ve been really proud of the massive team that we’ve built and the skills that we’re building, the chefs that have come out of here.
[00:22:44] And we just opened up the doors for so much creativity.
[00:22:47] You know, and and I’ve been able to step away from, you know, cutting vegetables up in the back to continuing to do this larger work and just really see a super competent, amazing team grow out of this.
[00:22:58] And we just have visions of doing this more and more as we grow.
[00:23:01] You’re both expanding your own personal world of indigenous food.
[00:23:06] And you’re starting a new restaurant in Bozeman, Montana.
[00:23:10] Yeah. So our everything, even this restaurant is a part of our nonprofit.
[00:23:15] You know, so we kind of use the restaurant as a tool.
[00:23:16] Yeah. So our everything, even this restaurant is a part of our nonprofit. You know, so we kind of use the restaurant as a tool.
[00:23:17] Because the restaurants, restaurants will never create food relief or even food access for that matter, because restaurants are a privilege because you need money to come to a restaurant and not everybody has money.
[00:23:29] You know, so the purpose of this restaurant wasn’t to feed people in need because we have other projects for that.
[00:23:35] But why this restaurant is part of a nonprofit is because restaurants do create a lot of jobs, which builds a lot of skills, creates a lot of future leaders.
[00:23:43] And then it also because of our intention of who we purchase from and who our food is.
[00:23:46] And then it also because of our intention of who we purchase from and who our food is.
[00:23:48] Because we try and purchase from local and regional indigenous first and then national indigenous and then support local BIPOC.
[00:23:55] You know, so we have a tier of how things flow, of where our money goes to.
[00:23:58] And we’re just seeing a lot of good where our food dollars are happening because we’re pushing over a half a million dollars a year just to indigenous producers alone with this restaurant, with this one kitchen.
[00:24:07] And so the vision was to continuously grow.
[00:24:10] So the nonprofit’s really focused on not only creating access to these foods and creating these projects and creating jobs.
[00:24:16] But also creating a lot of education and working towards education sovereignty also, which is really pulling the power of education, storytelling, history, crafts and all that stuff back towards ourselves so we can really understand the cultural relevance and a non-neurocentric approach on education also.
[00:24:33] So we also do a lot of video work.
[00:24:35] So if you go to our YouTube, we have over 180 videos uploaded already of all sorts of topics, but largely around food ways.
[00:24:41] You know, we have a new building and we’re opening up a new restaurant in town with a new restaurant.
[00:24:46] We have a new native concept and then we’re slowly moving into Montana, which will create new kitchens to do more work as we’re doing a lot of production work for schools and hospitals and manufacturing for large institutional culinary also.
[00:24:59] And that’s how we see food access of happening more in real time.
[00:25:02] But eventually we’ll open up a restaurant which will create the jobs, move the food dollars to where we want it to, build the skills and create a place for people to have the experience of sitting in a native restaurant with so much intention and being proud of being proud of it.
[00:25:16] And Natives is the non-profit.
[00:25:18] Natives is the non-profit.
[00:25:18] It’s an acronym.
[00:25:19] Yeah. North American traditional indigenous food systems.
[00:25:21] Because when you work in the nonprofit sector, you have to have an acronym for some reason.
[00:25:25] I think it’s required.
[00:25:26] Yeah.
[00:25:27] But I just prefer like, you know, acronyms that say something so you can remember what they mean.
[00:25:31] When I talked to you in 2021, you’re getting ready to open this restaurant.
[00:25:34] But you also said that you were seeing this kind of emerging wave in the culture of native representation.
[00:25:41] And whether it is in something like literature with Tommy Orange and his book.
[00:25:46] book There There, whether it is in TV and film with shows like Reservation Dogs, whether it’s
[00:25:52] you with food, it feels like there has been a really big resurgence of attention and
[00:26:01] representation in media. Yeah. How are you feeling that that is continuing or is being pushed back on?
[00:26:08] Well, I mean, of course, there’s pushback just because of the political situation that’s
[00:26:12] happening in America today. But I feel like there’s been so much amazing creativity and
[00:26:17] thought leaders coming out of this over the past decade and more. And I think that’s really
[00:26:22] important. And we’re just happy to do our part to being able to work with this culinary scene and
[00:26:27] to be able to do a project like this and for it to get a lot of recognition and attention.
[00:26:31] And it is changing the way people think about food. And that’s what we wanted.
[00:26:35] We want people to see the beauty in the food. We want people to empathize and understand some of
[00:26:39] the hardships that a lot of indigenous communities went through.
[00:26:42] And they’re still facing today.
[00:26:44] It seems like a lot of times the ingredients that grow locally,
[00:26:49] weirdly, people think about often as like a weed.
[00:26:52] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because it’s lazy. It’s the education that we have, you know, because like
[00:26:56] if we taught kids like the names of trees and plants, like that education can go really far
[00:27:02] because there’s so much to learn about because so much of the botanicals around us have meaning
[00:27:06] and have purpose, you know, because plants give us everything. They can be food. They can be
[00:27:10] medicine. They can be crafting.
[00:27:12] They can be tools, look, clothing, lodging, weapons. They’re part of our spirituality.
[00:27:17] They’re a part of our religions or part of our stories. That’s everything to us, you know,
[00:27:22] and we have so many plant relatives that have been here with our ancestors, too. And there’s
[00:27:26] so much to connect to with plants, especially, you know, and so I just feel like there’s a better
[00:27:30] way for education because like just around this building, like we put only indigenous plants
[00:27:35] around this this area. And then we did a project where we just put the names of the true names of
[00:27:41] plants.
[00:27:42] Where they are. So you’ll see the Dakota name because that’s the true name of the plant in that
[00:27:46] soil. And then an English descriptor name. So people can kind of walk around. You have passive
[00:27:50] education.
[00:27:51] I’ve been asking a lot of questions that are kind of on the broader, you know, big meaning
[00:27:55] societal scale. But something that’s really special about food and flavor is that it often is
[00:28:03] such a tie to our own memories and to our own sense of place and home and comfort. What are some
[00:28:10] flavors that for you?
[00:28:12] Do that?
[00:28:13] You know, for me, I always go to choke cherries just because we had them growing around us and we
[00:28:18] harvest them. And it’s something that’s really important and special to a lot of Lakota community.
[00:28:23] And so we would make a sauce a simple sauce out of the choke cherries that we call notebook Joppy.
[00:28:29] And we would have that on a lot of special occasions, you know, and that’s just something that
[00:28:33] reminds me of the smell of my grandmother’s kitchen growing up.
[00:28:36] But there’s lots of things just running around the plains and the smell of sage and the dirt, you know, and all that kind of stuff.
[00:28:42] So there’s lots of things just running around the planes and the smell of Sage and the dirt, you know, and all that kind of stuff around here, and all of the sa words, all that stuff.
[00:28:42] just the those memories are always there because i spent so much time outside and so i just think
[00:28:48] you know food does trigger a lot of memory and we want to see our own foods just normalized for
[00:28:53] these next generations so they just grew up always having it so it’s not just a couple of pieces but
[00:28:58] many pieces and on a daily occurrence and not just special occasions speaking of generations you work
[00:29:05] with your family your your son is in the kitchen right now when you were raising your son and when
[00:29:11] you’re thinking about other people raising their kids what is it that you want them to think about
[00:29:15] when they are feeding their families when they’re choosing the ingredients and the dishes that they
[00:29:19] make so i cook a lot at home and so he grew up i don’t even think he realizes like how much
[00:29:25] like good food was around him growing up you know and i gave him the choice early on is like
[00:29:30] go ahead and have fast food if you want just think about what’s in it like you know if you just look
[00:29:34] at a hamburger patty from a fast food restaurant like does that look like real food you know does
[00:29:39] that look like something that you want to
[00:29:41] really eat you know and so like i let him make his own decisions by just giving him some critical
[00:29:46] thoughts you know and so he hasn’t touched fast food restaurants since like it’s his choice like
[00:29:52] there’s no rules do what you want like everybody loves a in-and-out burger or something on occasion
[00:29:57] but like would you want to live off of it you know and so it’s just a matter of that and but
[00:30:02] i think it’s important to normalize not only healthy food but culturally relevant food
[00:30:06] and there’s so much more that we can be doing you know and i feel like america did a really good job
[00:30:11] bastardizing most cultures for so long that now is a time where we’re seeing such a shift with people
[00:30:16] really starting to reclaim their own cultural foods and and bring it from their own perspectives
[00:30:21] and that’s what’s going on with the indigenous communities too what would it mean to decolonize
[00:30:25] our diets and our plates so to me it’s a it’s a positive motion towards the future because
[00:30:32] i just like to compare the values of like what was what are the values of colonization you know
[00:30:37] and they’re not great you know because it’s a lot of division it’s a lot of
[00:30:41] humanization of people of color it’s a lot of blatant land theft to rip out resources to make
[00:30:46] somebody really rich and everybody else work really hard and then you compare indigenous
[00:30:51] communities and there’s so many amazing values of really being community-based really focusing
[00:30:56] and making sure that everybody has enough food to eat i’m really focused on passing down traditions
[00:31:01] understanding the respect that it takes to live with our environment and understand that we’re
[00:31:05] a part of the environment and we can find those values across the world because colonization
[00:31:09] didn’t just happen to native americans
[00:31:11] in the united states because it’s everywhere you know it’s north america central america
[00:31:15] south america africa india southeast asia australia new zealand everywhere in the world colonization
[00:31:20] has been and it’s still happening because we’re seeing colonization in places like gaza ukraine
[00:31:25] congo the amazon and it’s constantly happening still like we’ve never exited a period of
[00:31:30] colonization in human history yet one of the things that you’re voicing here is that there
[00:31:35] actually is a solution and it’s it’s a very old solution it’s a way of living that has existed
[00:31:41] and it’s a way to think more about using those techniques those skills that mindset in the
[00:31:47] future yeah i mean i don’t think we’re getting a lot smarter as humans you know i think we have
[00:31:52] a lot of challenges in front of us but i feel like the more that we’re able to talk to people
[00:31:58] on or like a direct basis to have real conversations to get away from the political
[00:32:03] theater to get away from all of this noise coming at us from all these manipulating media that’s out
[00:32:09] there and just to really focus like what do we really need you know what do we really need you
[00:32:11] know what do we really need you know what do we really need you know what do we really need you know
[00:32:11] what do we really need you know what do we really need you know what do we really need you know like we need
[00:32:12] clean water you know and we’re going through water crisis and we need to come up with solutions so
[00:32:16] we’re not just wasting water or giving it all the way to corporations so they can stay rich
[00:32:21] like we need ways to kind of protect some things and natural resources like you know like
[00:32:26] there’s a lot of talk about selling off tons of public lands which is just a continuation of
[00:32:31] colonization just selling off land to make money just to see it destroyed for whatever resources
[00:32:36] whether it’s mining or lumber or whatever it might be but it’s just going to leave those areas in
[00:32:40] disrepair for generations to come you know so we really need to focus on like what do we really
[00:32:46] need as humans to come together you know and we need food we need water we need a better
[00:32:51] understanding of our own education system you know and we need to be taught things that matter
[00:32:56] and we shouldn’t be afraid of diversity you know we shouldn’t be afraid of people if they’re
[00:32:59] different from us we should be embracing that diversity and trying to pull it together
[00:33:04] there’s often this real disconnect where people
[00:33:09] love to eat food from different cultures they love to go to a restaurant that serves tacos or serves
[00:33:18] in authentic cuisine from another place but then they don’t love to care for the people
[00:33:24] who are making that food sure or the people where the food comes from and that feels like
[00:33:30] this really big baffling disconnect to me in this moment and i’m just curious to hear your thoughts
[00:33:36] it is but you know historically you know
[00:33:39] And still today, the United States is still highly segregated, you know, and communities intentionally build their own community around themselves, you know.
[00:33:48] But especially white community has historically kept out a lot of people of color and they’ve had a hard time to understand or even find space to like really connect, you know.
[00:33:57] But like I’ve lived in Mexico and when you’re just in Mexico, like sure, there’s bad things that happen in every country.
[00:34:04] There’s cartels and there’s, you know, political stuff going on.
[00:34:08] But I feel like when you just learn to talk to people, learn to be with people, you see the beauty in everything, you know.
[00:34:15] And like, again, it’s like touching base with people as a human.
[00:34:18] And I feel like we need more of that.
[00:34:19] And food is such a great way to pull us together because food is something we all have in common.
[00:34:24] Food is something we can always talk about with each other and share with each other.
[00:34:27] And so I think it’s such a powerful language.
[00:34:30] Well, Sean Sherman, thank you so much for being on the show.
[00:34:32] It’s an absolute pleasure.
[00:34:33] Awesome. Well, thank you.
[00:34:37] That is it for today’s episode.
[00:34:38] Of how to be a better human.
[00:34:40] Thank you so much to today’s guest, Sean Sherman.
[00:34:42] His newest cookbook is called Turtle Island, Foods and Traditions of the Indigenous Peoples of North America.
[00:34:48] You can find out more about Sean and how to support his work with traditional indigenous food systems at SeanSherman.com or Natives.org.
[00:34:56] That is N-A-T-I-F-S dot org.
[00:35:00] I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book, Humor Me, which is about how to laugh more every day, is available for preorder now.
[00:35:05] It’s my first book and you can find out more about that and all my other podcasts.
[00:35:08] At ChrisDuffyComedy.com.
[00:35:11] How to be a better human is put together by a tasteful and educated team of audio professionals.
[00:35:15] On the TED side, we’ve got the healthy nuts and seeds that are Daniella Balarezo, Ban Ban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohannini, Laini Lott, Tansika Sunmanivong, Antonia Lay and Joseph DeBrine.
[00:35:26] This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who make sure that we are always serving up delicious truth.
[00:35:32] On the PRX side, we’ve got the five star sound chefs who are Morgan Flannery, Norgill, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzales.
[00:35:38] Thanks again to you for listening.
[00:35:41] You make this show possible.
[00:35:42] Please share this episode with the person who you would like to share a meal with.
[00:35:45] And we will be back next week with even more how to be a better human.
[00:35:49] Until then, take care.
[00:35:50] .