Vox

Leitura de 42 min

Is the Swipe Era Over?

Summary

The episode examines widespread dissatisfaction with dating apps and the swipe-based model pioneered by Tinder. Dating columnist Gina Sherlis explains that users are experiencing fatigue due to rising costs, algorithm distrust, safety concerns, and a feeling that apps are designed to keep them engaged rather than find love. This has led to a bifurcation in how people are seeking partners: some are returning to analog, in-person methods, while others are looking to new technologies, particularly AI, to optimize their search.

Producer Luke Vander Ploeg attends two very different singles events to see these trends in action. The first is a ‘Wrestling Speed Dating’ event for Gen Z, where participants literally wrestle potential matches. Attendees express deep frustration with apps like Hinge, and the physical, immediate interaction breaks down barriers, leading to some genuine connections. The second event is a millennial-focused wine mixer where women pay $100 and men attend free, reflecting the gender imbalance in offline dating interest. Guests here seek more authentic, low-pressure interactions that allow their personalities to shine beyond a curated profile.

Writer Amanda Hess reports from the ‘Love Symposium’ in California, where startups are pitching AI as the solution to dating’s problems. Ideas range from apps that analyze your phone’s data (photos, texts) to understand you better, to AI avatars that date on your behalf, to future environments where AI agents scan a bar for compatible matches. However, Hess notes skepticism, especially among tech-savvy young people in San Francisco who are craving more human connection—a desire so strong that even at this tech-focused conference, attendees ended up shirtless and wrestling, bringing the episode’s themes full circle.

Recommendations

Apps

  • Tinder — The dating app that pioneered the swipe-based interface in 2012, revolutionizing online dating but now facing user backlash.
  • Hinge — A dating app frequently mentioned by event attendees as a source of frustration, with matches that lead nowhere after brief conversations.
  • Data (app) — An AI-powered dating app encountered by Amanda Hess that analyzes the data and photos on your phone to build a profile and find matches, though it struggled with accurate insights in her test.
  • Keeper — A company billing itself as an ‘AI matchmaker’ that promises to find your soulmate by having users fill out extensive forms about their ideal partner.

Events

  • Wrestling Speed Dating — A singles event in Brooklyn where Gen Z participants mingle and then literally wrestle potential romantic interests on pink mats, breaking down physical barriers quickly.

People

  • Jonathan Bedin — The software developer who, in 2012, got the idea for the Tinder swipe from the motion of clearing fog off his bathroom mirror.
  • Amari Collins — A wine influencer and caterer who hosted the millennial wine mixer singles event Luke attended in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn.

Topic Timeline

  • 00:00:43 — The origin of the swipe and Tinder’s revolution — Host Rachel Abrams introduces the story of Jonathan Bedin, who got the idea for the Tinder swipe from clearing fog off a bathroom mirror in 2012. This simple gesture revolutionized dating, allowing users to make snap judgments on profiles. For over a decade, swiping defined the online dating experience, but the episode posits that daters have now turned against this model.
  • 00:02:20 — Dating columnist Gina Sherlis on app fatigue — Gina Sherlis, the NYT dating columnist, discusses the current state of dating app fatigue. She cites rising prices, algorithm suspicion, safety concerns, and a pervasive feeling that apps are businesses designed to monetize loneliness rather than facilitate lasting connections. Users feel ‘jerked around’ and are splitting into two camps: those seeking analog, in-person connections and those looking to technology (like AI) for a better solution.
  • 00:06:00 — How apps have eroded in-person social skills — Sherlis explains how the constant availability of dating apps has led to a ‘loss of rejection resilience.’ The incentive to approach someone in real life has diminished because you can always go home and swipe instead. This avoidance weakens the social muscles needed for in-person interaction, making people more anxious about coming off as a ‘creep’ and less adept at reading nonverbal cues.
  • 00:10:48 — Luke attends a Gen Z wrestling speed dating event — Producer Luke Vander Ploeg describes attending a ‘Wrestling Speed Dating’ event in a Brooklyn warehouse. The event is for 18-24 year olds and features DIY wrestling rings. Attendees universally express exhaustion with apps like Hinge. The premise is to mingle, find someone you’re interested in, and ask, ‘Do you want to wrestle me?’ The physical combat breaks down barriers quickly and leads to immediate, playful intimacy.
  • 00:17:39 — Luke attends a millennial wine mixer singles event — Luke’s second event is a more upscale wine mixer in a Bed-Stuy home, hosted by a wine influencer. Tickets are $100 for women and free for men, highlighting the challenge of getting men to attend such events. The millennial attendees talk about being ‘tired and stale’ on the apps. The night ends with a ‘crush’ segment where two people who wrote each other’s names down are called to the front and told to kiss, which they do without hesitation.
  • 00:26:50 — Amanda Hess reports from the AI Love Symposium — Writer Amanda Hess discusses her reporting from the ‘Love Symposium’ in California, a gathering focused on using technology to optimize human relationships. Startups pitch ideas like AI that analyzes your phone’s photos and texts to understand you, AI avatars that date for you, and future ambient systems that would scan a bar for compatible matches. The promise is to use more and better technology to solve the problems created by current technology.
  • 00:33:49 — The limits of AI in capturing chemistry — Hess and Abrams discuss the fundamental challenge for AI dating: capturing the ineffable ‘chemistry’ between people. While AI might help identify shared values or streamline the swiping process, it struggles with the intangible spark that often comes from real-world, circumstantial encounters. Hess notes that even at the tech-focused Love Symposium, the most memorable moment was when attendees took their shirts off and started wrestling, underscoring the enduring human desire for physical, unmediated connection.

Episode Info

  • Podcast: The Daily
  • Author: The New York Times
  • Category: News Daily News
  • Published: 2026-02-22T10:00:00Z
  • Duration: 00:35:23

References

Podcast Info

Transcript

[00:00:00] I’m Katrin Benhold, host of The World, a daily newsletter from The New York Times.

[00:00:05] I spent 20 years reporting from more than a dozen countries, and it occurred to me one day,

[00:00:09] what kind of newsletter would I like to read?

[00:00:11] I don’t live in the U.S. I want something especially for a global audience.

[00:00:15] The World is just that.

[00:00:17] Each weekday morning, we bring you the biggest stories, dispatches from my colleagues on the ground,

[00:00:21] and a few surprises, with video, too.

[00:00:24] The World’s newsletter. Read the latest and sign up at nytimes.com slash the world.

[00:00:34] From The New York Times, I’m Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily on Sunday.

[00:00:43] When Jonathan Bedin is asked about how he revolutionized dating, he talks about taking a shower.

[00:00:52] It was 2012.

[00:00:54] He was a software developer in California, and he’d forgotten to turn on the fan in the bathroom.

[00:01:00] So he gets out of the shower, and the mirror’s all fogged, and he swipes to clean it off.

[00:01:05] After a second, it fogs up again, and he swipes again, and again, and again, until he finally sees his face.

[00:01:15] And this gives him a world-changing idea for his new dating app, Tinder,

[00:01:20] which is that users should also be able to swipe.

[00:01:24] Tinder could show you a person’s face, a little bit of bio, and within seconds, you could swipe yay or nay, left or right.

[00:01:35] And people loved it.

[00:01:38] Other apps copied it, and in the years that followed, swiping changed how we date.

[00:01:44] But fast forward more than a decade to our current moment, and daters have turned on Jonathan’s brilliant invention,

[00:01:51] and they are demanding something different.

[00:01:56] Today, I talk with my colleagues, dating columnist Gina Sherlis, daily producer Luke Vander Ploeg,

[00:02:02] and writer-at-large Amanda Hess, about dating in the post-swipe era.

[00:02:08] It’s Sunday, February 22nd.

[00:02:13] Gina Sherlis, welcome to the Sunday Daily.

[00:02:16] Thanks for having me.

[00:02:17] Gina, so you are the dating columnist at The New York Times.

[00:02:20] What does that mean?

[00:02:22] So, for the last three years, I have been covering dating and relationships.

[00:02:27] I have a column. It’s called Third Wheel.

[00:02:29] Wait, are you the third wheel in the name of this column?

[00:02:31] Yes. Okay, so you picked it up.

[00:02:32] Okay, great.

[00:02:33] And I like to tell people that I cover the different ways people are falling in and out of love.

[00:02:38] The mischievous and exciting, confusing ways they’re navigating romance.

[00:02:44] You know, we’re in a loneliness epidemic.

[00:02:46] Right.

[00:02:47] COVID changed a lot about how we live, including how we date.

[00:02:50] So, the idea behind the column and focusing on dating and relationships

[00:02:55] really emerged out of recognizing that technology is evolving, and so are we.

[00:03:01] And I imagine all of that requires you to write a lot about dating apps.

[00:03:04] Definitely.

[00:03:05] You know, it’s so interesting that you mentioned the loneliness epidemic,

[00:03:07] because I feel like when you hear about people being lonely,

[00:03:12] you hear that oftentimes hand-in-hand as a complaint with the state of online dating.

[00:03:17] And the idea of the swipe.

[00:03:19] Like, that we have boiled down…

[00:03:20] The grand alchemy of human emotion and falling in love

[00:03:25] to, like, a few seconds on somebody’s profile and saying yes or no

[00:03:28] about whether this person could be your future partner.

[00:03:31] Do I… Is that…

[00:03:32] Yeah, dating app fatigue is at an all-time high, I’d argue, right now.

[00:03:37] Why is that?

[00:03:38] In my reporting, what I’ve observed is that the price points have gone up.

[00:03:42] A lot of people have become more suspicious of the algorithms.

[00:03:45] And a lot of people have become reluctant to swiping

[00:03:49] because of the options on the app.

[00:03:50] They are saying that they are swiping on men who are creeps

[00:03:55] or women who are crazy, like, using words like that.

[00:03:59] And I think there then comes a safety issue.

[00:04:03] There have been so many reports of people meeting up with a dating app date

[00:04:07] who turns out to be less than ideal or who harms them.

[00:04:11] And so a lot of people don’t like feeling like they’re being jerked around by the dating apps.

[00:04:15] Sure.

[00:04:16] Kept on there to spend their money versus actually finding love.

[00:04:20] Right.

[00:04:20] The apps, of course, are businesses,

[00:04:22] and therefore they are not necessarily incentivized to get you to stop using them,

[00:04:26] a.k.a. by finding you love.

[00:04:28] No.

[00:04:28] And I mean, and I think, you know, when I’m talking to representatives of the apps,

[00:04:31] they will obviously push back on that.

[00:04:33] Sure.

[00:04:33] And they’ll say, no, that’s not our end goal, but that’s not what it feels like.

[00:04:38] And I sort of wonder how you are seeing that frustration manifest

[00:04:42] and sort of what people are doing in response to it.

[00:04:46] The way that they’re responding to it?

[00:04:47] I mean, people are falling into two camps.

[00:04:50] You have those who are taking the more analog approach.

[00:04:54] They’re going offline.

[00:04:55] They want to try the dating methods that their grandparents or their parents use to fall in love.

[00:05:03] Meeting in person.

[00:05:04] Meeting in person, right.

[00:05:06] Going out and, you know, sitting by the bar.

[00:05:09] And then you have others who, even though they are experiencing dating app fatigue,

[00:05:14] they do believe that the evolution in technology, artificial intelligence,

[00:05:19] can help us.

[00:05:20] Can improve and optimize our lives.

[00:05:22] And if we’re using artificial intelligence in almost every other facet of our lives,

[00:05:28] at least it feels like that right now,

[00:05:30] then it’s no surprise that people are seeing it as a useful tool

[00:05:35] to help optimize their chances at finding love.

[00:05:39] One thing, though, I bet a bunch of people who are listening

[00:05:41] might be having this thought of people are still going to bars.

[00:05:44] They’re still going to work.

[00:05:45] They’re still going to places where they would have opportunities that their parents had

[00:05:49] or that their grandparents have to meet people.

[00:05:50] So why is that different, any different now?

[00:05:53] Why is the possibility of meeting people in those ways any different?

[00:05:57] Well, it’s because of the presence of dating apps.

[00:06:00] It’s not the only reason, but I think the way that we socialize in this century

[00:06:05] takes place in large part online.

[00:06:09] Dating apps have, you know, have led to, like, a loss of rejection resilience among singles.

[00:06:16] What does that mean?

[00:06:16] The existence of dating apps almost,

[00:06:20] eliminates the incentive to approach someone in person.

[00:06:23] Right.

[00:06:24] You’d be like, oh, well, too bad I didn’t get to talk to that person on the subway.

[00:06:26] I’ll just go home and swipe anyway.

[00:06:28] Exactly.

[00:06:29] When you don’t build a habit of that,

[00:06:31] it can make it really hard to then wake up one day and decide,

[00:06:34] I’m going to go out and approach a cute girl at the bar.

[00:06:37] Right.

[00:06:37] You may not be sure how you’re going to be received.

[00:06:40] You may be worried that you might come off as a creep.

[00:06:43] With the existence of dating apps,

[00:06:45] you don’t have an incentive to improve on your pickup skills or your game.

[00:06:50] Or your Riz, whatever the kids are calling it these days.

[00:06:53] You can avoid the labor of approaching a stranger by going home and swiping for a day

[00:06:57] and feeling like you’ve done a long, you know, day’s work of dating.

[00:07:01] I also think that dating apps and even just online communication, text-based communication,

[00:07:08] and having an edit button, being able to Google someone and do research on them

[00:07:12] before you send them a message or shoot your shot,

[00:07:15] I think that contributes in some ways to the way that we’re losing our ability

[00:07:20] to pick up on nonverbal cues.

[00:07:22] To be able to, like, you know, understand tone when you meet someone,

[00:07:27] picking up off that in person.

[00:07:29] I think that it can lead to a lot of misunderstanding and avoidance.

[00:07:34] Gina, it feels like people are really reckoning right now with the fact that

[00:07:37] while the apps might have initially made it easier or seem to have made it easier to date

[00:07:42] and find your person, a lot of people are not feeling that way.

[00:07:46] In fact, a lot of people are feeling that dating apps, for all the reasons you mentioned,

[00:07:49] have made dating a lot easier.

[00:07:50] Right.

[00:07:50] A lot harder.

[00:07:51] In the face of all of these challenges, it makes complete sense to me

[00:07:55] why people are trying to find creative or different ways of meeting someone.

[00:08:00] Definitely.

[00:08:01] I mean, look, so many people have had remarkable success on dating apps.

[00:08:05] Sure.

[00:08:06] And it’s no surprise that you have a bunch of people that are leaning into

[00:08:10] the possibility of technology, of optimizing their romantic lives,

[00:08:14] and using artificial intelligence.

[00:08:16] The next phase.

[00:08:17] But it also makes sense that you have people

[00:08:20] searching for alternative and real-life ways to make connection.

[00:08:26] Gina Sherlis, thank you so much for being with us.

[00:08:28] Thank you so much for having me. This was great.

[00:08:34] After the break, we’re going to look at some of the ways that people are trying to free themselves from swiping.

[00:08:40] Either by embracing the new promise of technology and AI,

[00:08:44] or by seeking out opportunities to find their soulmate in person.

[00:08:50] Coming up, our producer, Luke Vanderplug, risks getting body slammed for love.

[00:09:04] This is A.G. Solsberger.

[00:09:06] I’m the publisher of The New York Times.

[00:09:08] I oversee our news operations and our business.

[00:09:11] But I’m also a former reporter who has watched with a lot of alarm

[00:09:15] as our profession has shrunk and shrunk in recent years.

[00:09:18] Normally, in these ads,

[00:09:20] We talk about the importance of subscribing to The Times.

[00:09:23] I’m here today with a different message.

[00:09:26] I’m encouraging you to support any news organization that’s dedicated to original reporting.

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[00:10:05] Luke Vander Ploeg, Daily Producer. Welcome to The Daily on Sunday.

[00:10:10] Thank you, Rachel.

[00:10:11] So last weekend was Valentine’s Day, and we heard that you were available to go to a couple events.

[00:10:19] Tell us.

[00:10:20] Tell us what you went to.

[00:10:21] Yeah, so I actually went to a couple of very, very different dating events.

[00:10:26] And you went there, let’s be clear, what were you hoping to discover?

[00:10:30] Yeah, so basically I had three questions I wanted to answer.

[00:10:33] Fundamentally, I want to understand how people are feeling about dating these days,

[00:10:38] why they’re showing up at these events, right, and also are these events working for people.

[00:10:45] So where’d you go first?

[00:10:46] Hey.

[00:10:48] How you doing?

[00:10:50] Good.

[00:10:51] Wow, you got a cell phone.

[00:10:52] So I heard from a colleague of mine, reporter Callie Holterman.

[00:10:55] Where are we going right now?

[00:10:56] That she was covering a very unusual singles event.

[00:11:00] It is Valentine’s Day, and we are celebrating by going to what’s been billed as a singles wrestling mixer.

[00:11:08] The event was called Wrestling Speed Dating.

[00:11:11] Wrestling Speed Dating.

[00:11:13] Yes.

[00:11:13] Oh my God. Do you plan on wrestling someone?

[00:11:17] I’m not much of a wrestler.

[00:11:18] It was geared.

[00:11:19] It was geared very specifically toward Gen Z participants.

[00:11:23] In fact, it was limited to 18 to 24-year-olds.

[00:11:26] Wow, okay.

[00:11:27] Totally capped out.

[00:11:28] Okay, so Luke, just to note, you are not 18 to 24 years old?

[00:11:32] Correct.

[00:11:32] You are how old?

[00:11:33] I am 34 years old.

[00:11:35] I would certainly have been banned from attending this if I was not a journalist,

[00:11:40] and I also abstained from wrestling.

[00:11:43] Got it. You were there strictly for journalistic purposes.

[00:11:46] Strictly business.

[00:11:49] So, we arrived at this event, it was in a sort of warehouse space in Northern Brooklyn.

[00:11:55] I’m walking in, wow.

[00:11:58] You sort of walk into this big, empty space, the kind of space that you might have a rave in or something like that.

[00:12:06] But in the middle of the room, there were laid out these three bright pink wrestling mats with sort of makeshift ropes wrapped around them in a very like DIY, WWE sort of way.

[00:12:18] Right.

[00:12:18] It is basically a Brooklyn warehouse version of WWE, is what it sounds like.

[00:12:23] Yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly.

[00:12:25] The vibe of the place feels like young.

[00:12:28] I see a lot of baggy jeans, a lot of dresses over jeans, one football jersey with the numbers 6-7 on it.

[00:12:37] And so Callie and I started mingling, talking to folks.

[00:12:41] …to being interviewed for it.

[00:12:42] Yes!

[00:12:43] And what we discovered pretty much immediately.

[00:12:47] Hinge is an evil entity, yeah.

[00:12:51] Is that people are really tired of the apps.

[00:12:55] Everybody is figuring out their dating goals on Hinge.

[00:13:00] They’ll like you and then you like talk for like two seconds and then you never speak again on Hinge.

[00:13:06] I’ve had Hinge for two years and I’ve gone on one date.

[00:13:08] So tired, in fact, that they’re willing to wrestle each other for love.

[00:13:11] Exactly.

[00:13:12] Are you guys feeling ready? Are you nervous?

[00:13:14] Yeah, it’s my first debut match, so I’m nervous.

[00:13:16] Yeah, it’s my first debut match, so I’m nervous.

[00:13:17] Yeah, it’s my first debut match, so I’m nervous.

[00:13:19] Okay, so obviously the idea here is not just wrestling, but wrestling to meet potentially your soulmate.

[00:13:24] Are men and women wrestling each other or how is this working?

[00:13:27] Right, so for people who wanted to wrestle, and it was not a requirement that you wrestle, obviously,

[00:13:32] but for people who wanted to, you mingle around the room.

[00:13:35] You look for someone that maybe you might be interested in romantically.

[00:13:40] Or fighting.

[00:13:41] Or fighting, yes.

[00:13:43] And you approach them, start a conversation, and just ask them,

[00:13:46] do you want to wrestle me?

[00:13:51] Okay, so how did the wrestling actually go?

[00:13:53] I mean, it went really well.

[00:13:56] I think the wrestlers are making their way to the mats.

[00:13:57] Everybody is gathering around.

[00:13:59] How are we defining well?

[00:14:02] So, I thought, you know, maybe they would have a hard time finding people to

[00:14:06] actually participate but that was absolutely not the case.

[00:14:09] Okay.

[00:14:10] The rounds filled up incredibly quickly.

[00:14:12] They’re putting on their little earmuff thing.

[00:14:14] It’s called wrestling mom.

[00:14:15] It’s called wrestling headgear.

[00:14:17] When it came time to actually wrestle,

[00:14:19] the participants sort of came out on the mat,

[00:14:22] corner to corner.

[00:14:29] And they really went at it.

[00:14:30] Like, there were some, like, kind of impressive,

[00:14:33] like, WWE-esque, like, wrestling moves.

[00:14:37] Oh, she just went over his back, leapfrog style.

[00:14:40] This is vicious.

[00:14:42] There were flippings over the shoulder.

[00:14:44] There were sort of, like, leg sweep takedowns.

[00:14:47] Oh, my God.

[00:14:52] That was a move.

[00:14:55] I’ve never felt better about my decision not to wrestle.

[00:14:58] It felt sort of like this fun mix

[00:15:00] between actual athleticism

[00:15:02] and sort of performance for the audience.

[00:15:06] Much like WWE.

[00:15:07] Much like WWE.

[00:15:08] WWE.

[00:15:11] It looks like the round is over.

[00:15:14] I mean, maybe you can’t tell,

[00:15:16] but did anybody seem like they were swapping numbers

[00:15:18] or talking about going out later?

[00:15:20] No, we did investigate that,

[00:15:21] because we were curious, you know,

[00:15:22] obviously people were having a great time

[00:15:24] wrestling each other,

[00:15:25] but is that actually going to lead

[00:15:27] to a romantic relationship?

[00:15:28] Right.

[00:15:29] And I think the answer was mixed.

[00:15:30] Did you feel any chemistry in that last one?

[00:15:33] Honestly, yeah.

[00:15:33] I’m not going to lie.

[00:15:34] Honestly, yeah.

[00:15:35] Like, not interested.

[00:15:36] But there’s chemistry when you are literally wrestling.

[00:15:38] We did talk to some people who were like,

[00:15:40] you know, I wrestled,

[00:15:41] but I was not actually that interested in my part.

[00:15:44] Like, I’m actually in an exclusive relationship.

[00:15:49] Secret.

[00:15:50] You’re here for the competition.

[00:15:51] I’m here for a real, a cheeky flirt, as I like to say.

[00:15:54] A cheeky flirt and the love of the game.

[00:15:56] But at the same time,

[00:15:57] do you guys feel like there will be any romance

[00:16:00] to come from this or no?

[00:16:02] Maybe.

[00:16:03] I don’t know.

[00:16:03] Maybe.

[00:16:04] I don’t know.

[00:16:05] Yeah.

[00:16:06] We met multiple people

[00:16:08] who found actual connections at this thing.

[00:16:12] And what did they say they were going to do?

[00:16:13] I mean,

[00:16:13] how do you go from something that intimate,

[00:16:15] like crawling on someone else in a rink

[00:16:17] to, I don’t know, having drinks?

[00:16:18] Like, what do you even do after that?

[00:16:20] Yeah.

[00:16:20] I mean, I think the physical barrier

[00:16:22] being broken down between these people so quickly

[00:16:25] led to sort of a skipping toward sort of intimacy

[00:16:29] that felt kind of interesting and cool.

[00:16:31] She was really good.

[00:16:32] We wrestled.

[00:16:33] I was okay.

[00:16:34] We wrestled each other.

[00:16:35] She wrestled really well.

[00:16:36] Like, I remember one couple that I ran into.

[00:16:38] They were in the first couple rounds of wrestling.

[00:16:41] I mean, he came up to me and, you know,

[00:16:43] I think we hit it off pretty well.

[00:16:45] Yeah.

[00:16:45] He actually knew jujitsu,

[00:16:47] so he was like,

[00:16:48] I can teach you some moves.

[00:16:50] Wow.

[00:16:50] I wouldn’t have gone for his legs

[00:16:52] unless he told me to, so.

[00:16:54] The wrestling itself happened.

[00:16:55] It was very fun, very cute.

[00:16:57] She was trying to kill me.

[00:16:58] I was not trying to kill you.

[00:16:59] Just a little bit.

[00:17:00] I was trying to beat him a little bit,

[00:17:01] a tiny bit.

[00:17:02] Who won in the end?

[00:17:03] I think she did.

[00:17:05] I think he did.

[00:17:07] And afterward,

[00:17:08] they just seemed like a couple.

[00:17:09] They were sort of like holding hands,

[00:17:11] touching each other.

[00:17:12] Like,

[00:17:13] it was,

[00:17:13] it was incredibly cute.

[00:17:14] What’s,

[00:17:15] what’s the next step here?

[00:17:16] Have numbers been exchanged?

[00:17:17] Do you think you might go out after this?

[00:17:20] I don’t know.

[00:17:20] Are you going to ask for my number?

[00:17:22] I mean,

[00:17:22] I could ask you for your number.

[00:17:24] Yeah.

[00:17:25] He’s going to ask me for my number.

[00:17:26] I’ll ask him for a number.

[00:17:27] He’ll definitely ask me.

[00:17:29] Yeah.

[00:17:30] Okay,

[00:17:30] so that was the wrestling event.

[00:17:32] Sounds like,

[00:17:32] at least for some people,

[00:17:34] resounding success.

[00:17:35] You went to a second event,

[00:17:37] not on Valentine’s Day,

[00:17:39] right?

[00:17:39] Correct.

[00:17:40] Okay.

[00:17:40] I went to an event the following night,

[00:17:42] and it could not have been more different

[00:17:45] from the first event.

[00:17:47] What was it?

[00:17:47] Yeah,

[00:17:48] so I heard about this second event

[00:17:49] through a friend,

[00:17:50] and it was a sort of wine mixer.

[00:17:53] I think what really got me interested

[00:17:55] in this particular event

[00:17:56] was the fact that tickets for women

[00:17:58] were $100,

[00:17:59] and tickets for men were free.

[00:18:02] Oh my God,

[00:18:02] I think my soul just left my body.

[00:18:04] Why,

[00:18:05] why was it so much more for women

[00:18:06] than for men?

[00:18:07] I mean,

[00:18:08] I think the truth is

[00:18:10] that there are a lot more women out there

[00:18:12] interested in showing up

[00:18:13] for these dating events,

[00:18:14] and it’s not as easy

[00:18:16] to get men to show up.

[00:18:17] Okay,

[00:18:18] so tell me about

[00:18:18] what this event actually was.

[00:18:20] How you doing?

[00:18:20] Is this the Squirrel School thing?

[00:18:22] Yeah,

[00:18:22] my name’s Chris.

[00:18:23] Luke,

[00:18:23] nice to meet you.

[00:18:24] So it was held

[00:18:25] at this really gorgeous home

[00:18:27] in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn.

[00:18:29] Oh, you’re the guy.

[00:18:30] I’m the guy.

[00:18:31] What’s up?

[00:18:32] How are you?

[00:18:32] Nice to meet you.

[00:18:33] The host was this woman

[00:18:34] named Amari Collins.

[00:18:36] She is a wine influencer,

[00:18:38] wine caterer,

[00:18:39] who runs a lot of

[00:18:41] wine tasting events

[00:18:42] around New York.

[00:18:42] Okay,

[00:18:43] so as you can probably tell,

[00:18:44] this isn’t a very traditional

[00:18:46] wine tasting.

[00:18:48] We’re going to be going

[00:18:49] The event was pretty intimate.

[00:18:50] I would guess there were

[00:18:50] around 20 people there,

[00:18:52] maybe a little more.

[00:18:52] Just because it’s like,

[00:18:53] wine for me is the vehicle

[00:18:55] to open the gates of hell.

[00:18:58] We’re like,

[00:18:59] people’s personalities

[00:19:00] and life

[00:19:01] and like,

[00:19:02] getting into it,

[00:19:03] swirling on into it.

[00:19:04] And Amari basically guided us

[00:19:06] through a series

[00:19:07] of fun little activities,

[00:19:09] punctuated by

[00:19:10] just general mingling,

[00:19:11] sipping wine,

[00:19:14] snacking on delicious hors d’oeuvres.

[00:19:18] We also played this game

[00:19:23] called Confessionals

[00:19:24] where she came around

[00:19:24] with a bag

[00:19:25] with little slips of paper

[00:19:26] inside with questions on them

[00:19:28] that we’d have to answer

[00:19:29] in front of the whole group.

[00:19:31] What’s your favorite way

[00:19:32] someone could surprise you

[00:19:33] on a date?

[00:19:34] I think in general,

[00:19:36] just someone planning the date.

[00:19:38] Oh!

[00:19:39] I would say that the night

[00:19:44] fell in the sort of sweet spot

[00:19:46] between classy dinner party

[00:19:48] and raucous bachelorette weekend.

[00:19:51] Got it.

[00:19:52] Okay, so talk about

[00:19:53] some of the people

[00:19:53] that you met there.

[00:19:54] Yeah, so the demographic here

[00:19:56] was a lot different

[00:19:58] from wrestling night.

[00:20:00] I would estimate

[00:20:01] that they were

[00:20:02] anywhere from late 20s

[00:20:04] to early 40s.

[00:20:06] Solidly millennial.

[00:20:07] Solidly millennial.

[00:20:08] And I would also,

[00:20:09] I would also say

[00:20:09] that whereas the wrestling event

[00:20:11] was very queer,

[00:20:12] it seemed like

[00:20:13] there was a lot of diversity

[00:20:14] in terms of gender identity,

[00:20:17] in terms of sexuality.

[00:20:19] This was solidly heterosexual.

[00:20:22] Men seeking women,

[00:20:23] women seeking men.

[00:20:25] Okay.

[00:20:25] And then I think

[00:20:26] one other thing

[00:20:26] that’s really important

[00:20:27] to note here is

[00:20:29] I counted maybe 15 women

[00:20:32] Okay.

[00:20:32] at this event.

[00:20:34] And there were,

[00:20:35] counting me,

[00:20:36] five men.

[00:20:37] Wow.

[00:20:38] That really makes you understand

[00:20:39] why the ticket price discrepancy.

[00:20:41] Totally.

[00:20:42] So presumably you talked

[00:20:43] to some of the guests there.

[00:20:44] I did.

[00:20:44] What did they tell you

[00:20:45] about why they were there

[00:20:46] and what they were hoping for?

[00:20:48] Yeah, so I talked

[00:20:49] to a few folks.

[00:20:51] I feel like as a millennial

[00:20:52] I’m just tired and stale.

[00:20:55] One woman really

[00:20:55] stuck out to me.

[00:20:56] Her name was Belle Levy.

[00:20:58] As someone in their 30s

[00:20:59] who’s been in New York

[00:21:00] for almost 10 years

[00:21:01] and who’s not from here

[00:21:03] and who has built a community,

[00:21:05] built a career,

[00:21:06] built everything,

[00:21:09] I’m tired

[00:21:10] to where maybe

[00:21:12] I just don’t have the spark

[00:21:13] on the dating apps

[00:21:16] that I do.

[00:21:17] And for her,

[00:21:18] the dating apps

[00:21:19] really didn’t feel like

[00:21:20] they fully represented

[00:21:21] who she was.

[00:21:23] And showing up

[00:21:24] to an event like this

[00:21:25] really allowed her

[00:21:26] to sort of effortlessly

[00:21:27] be herself.

[00:21:28] And I’m a very, like,

[00:21:29] charismatic person.

[00:21:30] I’m bubbly.

[00:21:31] I’m loud.

[00:21:32] That’s who I am.

[00:21:33] I am a fun person.

[00:21:36] But, like,

[00:21:36] I don’t have the energy

[00:21:37] to portray that.

[00:21:39] To my 400 matches

[00:21:41] on Hinge.

[00:21:42] But if I meet someone

[00:21:43] in person,

[00:21:45] that spark is going

[00:21:46] to come naturally.

[00:21:48] Did you talk to any of the men?

[00:21:50] Like, why were they there?

[00:21:51] What were they hopeful for?

[00:21:53] Yeah, I talked to one guy there,

[00:21:55] Kevin Gao,

[00:21:55] who was just recently back

[00:21:57] in the dating world.

[00:21:58] How did you end up

[00:21:59] at this event?

[00:22:01] I know the chefs

[00:22:03] who are running it.

[00:22:04] So they’re running

[00:22:05] a singles event

[00:22:06] and they’re like,

[00:22:07] well, Kevin,

[00:22:08] we need singles.

[00:22:09] Dudes here, especially.

[00:22:10] Right, right.

[00:22:11] I guess in New York

[00:22:12] is sort of a deficit.

[00:22:16] And he really didn’t like

[00:22:17] how the apps

[00:22:18] were so focused

[00:22:19] on first impressions.

[00:22:21] First impressions

[00:22:21] that could be deceiving.

[00:22:23] Yeah, I mean,

[00:22:24] look, I’m going to tell

[00:22:25] an anecdote about

[00:22:26] my last long-term relationship.

[00:22:28] When we met

[00:22:28] for the first time

[00:22:29] at a house party,

[00:22:31] I found her cute

[00:22:33] and attractive.

[00:22:34] And when I ended up

[00:22:35] talking to her,

[00:22:36] I realized,

[00:22:37] I don’t think

[00:22:38] there’s any spark here.

[00:22:39] There might not be

[00:22:40] any chemistry.

[00:22:41] So we kind of were like,

[00:22:42] okay, let’s nod our heads.

[00:22:44] Kind of like say like,

[00:22:44] oh, this is a good try

[00:22:45] and let’s just move on.

[00:22:47] Yeah.

[00:22:47] We ended up matching

[00:22:48] on an app

[00:22:49] two months later.

[00:22:51] Wow.

[00:22:51] And then we kind of

[00:22:52] met up

[00:22:53] and we kind of rekindled

[00:22:55] and realized

[00:22:55] there actually is

[00:22:56] something here.

[00:22:57] I guess I tell this

[00:22:58] anecdote of like,

[00:23:00] I am a believer

[00:23:01] that maybe

[00:23:02] on that first impression,

[00:23:04] you might actually

[00:23:05] not have that chemistry

[00:23:06] with someone.

[00:23:07] Hmm.

[00:23:09] But it is possible

[00:23:11] there actually might

[00:23:12] be something there.

[00:23:14] Right.

[00:23:15] Basically, he was saying

[00:23:16] that sometimes you need

[00:23:16] a little space

[00:23:17] and patience

[00:23:18] to figure out

[00:23:19] whether someone

[00:23:19] is actually right for you.

[00:23:21] And when you have

[00:23:22] thousands and thousands

[00:23:23] of these profiles

[00:23:24] available to you,

[00:23:26] maybe you just

[00:23:27] aren’t incentivized

[00:23:28] to slow down

[00:23:29] and consider someone

[00:23:30] in the same way

[00:23:31] you might be in person.

[00:23:33] Okay.

[00:23:33] And so at the end

[00:23:34] of the night,

[00:23:35] did he or anybody

[00:23:37] else you talked to

[00:23:38] say that they

[00:23:39] had met somebody

[00:23:39] they wanted to see

[00:23:40] again romantically?

[00:23:42] So the people

[00:23:42] that I spoke to

[00:23:43] did not really seem

[00:23:45] like they had made

[00:23:46] a connection

[00:23:46] that would last

[00:23:47] after the event.

[00:23:48] Okay.

[00:23:48] But there were some people

[00:23:50] that I didn’t speak to

[00:23:51] that did seem to

[00:23:52] have made a connection.

[00:23:54] There are

[00:23:55] some people

[00:23:57] that wrote each other’s

[00:23:58] names down

[00:23:58] in the crush segment.

[00:24:00] No!

[00:24:02] So for the last event

[00:24:04] of the evening,

[00:24:05] Amari, the host,

[00:24:06] took all of these

[00:24:07] slips of paper

[00:24:08] that she had been

[00:24:08] collecting from people

[00:24:09] throughout the night

[00:24:10] where people had been

[00:24:11] writing down their crushes.

[00:24:13] And if two people

[00:24:14] wrote down each other,

[00:24:16] she called them up

[00:24:17] in front of everybody.

[00:24:18] And those people

[00:24:20] will have to make out

[00:24:22] with each other

[00:24:22] in front of everybody.

[00:24:23] Shut the fuck up!

[00:24:26] And she actually

[00:24:27] told them to

[00:24:29] make out with each other.

[00:24:30] What?

[00:24:31] Yes.

[00:24:32] That sounds so problematic.

[00:24:34] Yeah.

[00:24:35] And you know,

[00:24:35] honestly,

[00:24:36] I thought that at first too.

[00:24:38] Steven!

[00:24:38] Oh!

[00:24:41] Egynesia!

[00:24:44] But the names were called,

[00:24:46] they walked up to each other,

[00:24:47] and immediately

[00:24:50] started kissing.

[00:24:54] Amazing!

[00:24:55] I mean,

[00:24:56] it was wild.

[00:24:58] Wow.

[00:24:58] Zero hesitation!

[00:25:00] Zero hesitation!

[00:25:02] Best night ever!

[00:25:08] Okay, so Luke,

[00:25:13] what is your verdict

[00:25:14] at the end of the night?

[00:25:16] Would you go to one of these events

[00:25:17] on your own

[00:25:18] as a single man?

[00:25:19] Do you think they work?

[00:25:21] Let me tell you that

[00:25:22] I have been to some of these events.

[00:25:24] And so going into this one,

[00:25:26] I was wondering, like,

[00:25:27] is this going to be

[00:25:28] like the same thing I did?

[00:25:30] A little bit awkward.

[00:25:31] But I don’t know.

[00:25:32] After this,

[00:25:33] maybe I have a little bit more hope

[00:25:34] for singles events

[00:25:36] and their impact

[00:25:37] on our community.

[00:25:38] I don’t know.

[00:25:38] I don’t know.

[00:25:38] I don’t know.

[00:25:38] I don’t know.

[00:25:38] I don’t know.

[00:25:38] I don’t know.

[00:25:38] I don’t know.

[00:25:38] I don’t know.

[00:25:39] I don’t know.

[00:25:39] crisis that we’re in right now.

[00:25:41] A beacon of hope

[00:25:42] in the hellscape of dating.

[00:25:43] I will say I walked away

[00:25:44] from each of these events

[00:25:46] with, you know,

[00:25:47] a tentatively positive feeling.

[00:25:50] Luke Vander Ploeg,

[00:25:51] eternal optimist,

[00:25:53] romantic,

[00:25:54] thank you for joining us.

[00:25:55] Thank you, Rachel.

[00:25:58] After the break,

[00:26:00] Amanda Hess

[00:26:00] tells us how

[00:26:01] artificial intelligence

[00:26:02] is trying to find us love.

[00:26:08] amanda hess it is our great pleasure to have you on our new sunday daily show welcome thank you for

[00:26:21] having me we just spoke with one of our extremely adventurous producers luke vanderplug who went to

[00:26:26] two different types of in-person events one where they wrestled one where they drank wine

[00:26:33] you have been focused on sort of a different end of the dating spectrum which is people who are

[00:26:37] leaning into technology and specifically where ai and dating intersect you recently went and wrote

[00:26:45] about this event in california called love symposium tell us what that event was about

[00:26:50] um it was basically a meeting of people who are interested in optimizing human relationships

[00:26:57] and so there were researchers there there were people who were representatives of startups of

[00:27:03] dating startups we’re all talking about basically

[00:27:07] the uses and in some cases the limits of technology to improve human mating optimizing

[00:27:16] human relationships for human mating what could sound more romantic what are these people telling

[00:27:23] you exactly about how they could accomplish any of this how they could use tech to improve finding

[00:27:29] your soulmate finding somebody to mate with what they would say is everybody uses apps to date

[00:27:37] them what if we could solve the problems with the technology with more technology better technology

[00:27:44] that can find you a more specific match than the endless scroll of apps and they presumably have a

[00:27:52] whole bunch of different ways to do this that’s what they say whether that’s like ai agents who

[00:27:59] can date for you or if it’s like ai supercharged matchmaking

[00:28:06] have you ever heard of the term matchmaking

[00:28:07] have you actually had any hands-on experience with any of these apps they’re talking about

[00:28:10] um i uh encountered an app that’s called data in which i can imagine stands for data plus dating

[00:28:20] that’s right and one of the things that it does is it like analyzes your the data about you that’s

[00:28:29] in your phone so it looked at my camera it just takes it takes your please go ahead yeah i gave

[00:28:33] permission to look at all of my photos i gave my

[00:28:37] entire life away for a vague promise that it would find me love go on yeah and i should say like i am

[00:28:42] happily married and i’m not uh looking but for the purposes of writing this story i i would say i

[00:28:48] created a fake profile but i couldn’t actually lie because it was just it was looking at my photos

[00:28:52] and trying to analyze the kind of person i was and the kind of stuff i liked and what i might

[00:28:58] be looking for in a partner because most of my photos are of my two beautiful children it

[00:29:07] was that i was a parent it guessed that i was into pets but i don’t have any it matched me with a lot

[00:29:12] of jewish people i think possibly because my husband is jewish wait i’m sorry it figured it

[00:29:16] matched you with jewish people but it didn’t figure out you were married like it was able to

[00:29:19] figure out that well i did lie about that part oh you lied so i thought you were a cheater i should

[00:29:24] have figured out you were a cheater i mean i you know i just i didn’t say anything i didn’t say

[00:29:28] either way but i did sign up looking for matches um and basically what happened was the first match

[00:29:37] was a guy who lives on a different continent and also works for the app which i think is indicative

[00:29:43] of really need more users yes the idea here okay all these companies know this like this is like

[00:29:48] their biggest hurdle is like getting enough users in order to even test their premise which is that

[00:29:53] they can make more fine-tuned selections between people who are dating and the idea here is that

[00:29:59] they can do that for you if you give them all of the information in your phone yeah and they’re um

[00:30:06] you know some of these apps are like you know they’re like you know they’re like you know they’re

[00:30:07] apps are less than facilitating dating they’re like trying to facilitate self-knowledge so that

[00:30:14] you can date better in the future what does that mean uh so there’s one company that will read all

[00:30:18] of your text messages with your ex-boyfriend or ex-girlfriend and tell you like exactly the moment

[00:30:24] that the vibe shifted between you it will say like who like who started it who started it yeah i’ll

[00:30:29] give you all of this insight into your worst memories yes how your relationship degraded

[00:30:36] and

[00:30:37] like i i mean i don’t know about you but like i don’t want to know and but the idea is that by

[00:30:42] analyzing all this information they’re going to be able to glean something about you that you

[00:30:46] yourself do not yet know and by knowing that you are going to be able to maybe make better choices

[00:30:50] or matches for yourself um yeah i mean i think a lot of the promise of some of these products is

[00:30:55] like you just have to spend less time looking through matches because the ai is going to do

[00:31:01] it for you and you can spend more time out in the world because this ai is like

[00:31:07] trying to find a man for you okay so you’re at love symposium tell us about some of the other

[00:31:12] technological ideas that you’re hearing about there some of the stuff i heard was in the future

[00:31:19] you could have an ai avatar that dated uh for you so two avatars could go on a first date so that

[00:31:27] you don’t have this awkward drinks or so there’s a bot that represents me an avatar that represents

[00:31:33] me and this bot is going to have a conversation with somebody else’s bot yeah i actually don’t

[00:31:37] know if they need to have a conversation if they do they can have like a an understanding i’m not

[00:31:42] sure they just trade information instantly and yeah this is all like in the realm of ideas um

[00:31:47] i heard from someone who was suggesting that like in the future our lived environment could

[00:31:54] be optimized so that let’s say you like walk into a bar your agent can be sort of like scanning the

[00:32:02] other agents and finding like the people in the bar who might be compatible for you

[00:32:07] and then perhaps it could engineer a romantic moment for you by like turning up the glow of

[00:32:13] the light in the bar over the person who you’re meant to speak with that sounds so cinematic

[00:32:19] but of course like all of these things like if there are sensors that are hooked up to our ai’s

[00:32:24] that are like changing the lighting in uh the bars that we were going into this is a very extensive

[00:32:31] surveillance state right it’s just like going going even harder than we are already right

[00:32:37] there were people there from a company called keeper which bills itself as an ai matchmaker

[00:32:43] keeper says that it will find your soulmate for you big promise yeah i filled out a lot of the

[00:32:52] keeper form just to see what kinds of things that they were asking and for me like someone who is

[00:32:58] married to a an individual human being i was like i don’t know how to fill this out like what’s my

[00:33:03] ideal man uh-huh uh men are not ideal

[00:33:07] women are not ideal like people are not ideal and that’s not how people get together like they

[00:33:14] find each other through circumstance and so in some ways ideal man is like a little bit limiting

[00:33:21] like you might list a whole bunch of characteristics that in real life if you met somebody maybe they

[00:33:24] wouldn’t have any of them well these companies have a response for that as well what is it they

[00:33:28] say we will be able to know better than you do what you want impressive like we’ll be able to

[00:33:34] intuit something through the

[00:33:37] profiles that you’re liking through the pictures that you’re rating highly as opposed to low that

[00:33:43] you cannot articulate yourself i feel like what this is all driving toward is chemistry right

[00:33:49] like all the intangible things about a person that you’re just not going to be able to gauge

[00:33:54] unless you encounter them in the real world right exactly i can understand the idea of

[00:33:59] an ai app helping to identify your values perhaps things you enjoy doing i really have a hard time

[00:34:07] imagining that it’s going to help with the thing that is a that is that elusive like chemistry

[00:34:11] yeah the um promise of these things is like we found the perfect person for you we looked at you

[00:34:17] we looked inside your soul and this is what you deserve yeah i mean i think if you don’t think

[00:34:22] about it in terms of um solving human relationships but instead think about it as maybe marginally

[00:34:30] improving the experience of online dating it can sound a lot more interesting um if you

[00:34:37] are sick of swiping it says let us automate that for you like what if we could get to the 25th man

[00:34:44] in your queue faster and then you could sort of like assess him and figure out whether it makes

[00:34:51] sense to go on a date or whatever and so given that we’re already like in this kind of technological

[00:34:55] hell i think that’s like uh you know it’s a potentially promising promise um but i’d also

[00:35:05] say that when i was at love symposium

[00:35:07] like i talked to a lot of people who live in san francisco like young people who are dating who

[00:35:11] are really skeptical of ai like why because i think they have been living and working in uh

[00:35:20] the tech world for like in some cases their entire lives and they are looking for some kind of escape

[00:35:28] they’re looking for like more of a human touch um to the extent that like as the love symposium

[00:35:35] wore on and it was in this co-working

[00:35:37] space that had a bunch of rooms that were like padded with various cushions they uh a group of

[00:35:42] people who attended the love symposium ended up taking their shirts off and wrestling in one of

[00:35:46] the rooms wrestling yeah a bunch of guys okay um and so like even though the love symposium is

[00:35:53] engaging with technology the whole point is to put people in a room together and that is what is um

[00:36:01] interesting and exciting to people about it so it all comes full circle even even the even the folks

[00:36:07] there’s something ineffable about bringing people in a room together yeah and having them wrestle

[00:36:10] this episode really had more wrestling than i anticipated

[00:36:13] amanda hess thank you so much thank you for having me

[00:36:18] today’s episode was produced by alex barron and luke vanderplug with help from tina antolini

[00:36:28] it was edited by wendy door and engineered by daniel ramirez our production manager is franny

[00:36:34] cartoff original music by alex barron and luke vanderplug

[00:36:37] by dan powell and marian lozano that’s it for the daily on sunday i’m rachel abrams see you tomorrow

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