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The philosophy of performance | Michelle Terry

Summary

In this episode of Philosophy For Our Times, award-winning actor and Artistic Director of Shakespeare’s Globe Theatre, Michelle Terry, discusses the philosophy of performance. She begins by sharing her personal journey into acting and how she unexpectedly became the Artistic Director of the Globe after writing a letter during a public crisis at the institution.

Michelle makes a crucial distinction between acting as a craft and performing as a universal human behavior. She argues that acting provides a safe, constructed environment to explore aspects of the self and confront difficult societal issues with nuance and complexity. In a world that often demands singular positions, storytelling through theatre allows for debate and discussion without immediate pressure to solve problems.

The conversation delves into Shakespeare’s unique approach to character, noting how his plays were written for male actors but explore all aspects of humanity. Michelle discusses the spectrum between actor and character, where sometimes the gap is narrowed (as in method acting) and sometimes widened, allowing the audience to project their own interpretations. She shares powerful anecdotes, including one about a young girl who projected ‘greasy hair’ onto her character despite Michelle wearing a hat, illustrating how much meaning is determined by audience perception.

Michelle explores the fluid nature of the self, arguing against fixity and embracing the endless changes in identity. She contrasts the live, ultra-responsive relationship in theatre with the more controlled environment of film and television, where the director and editor have final control. The discussion touches on practical challenges like pigeons landing on stage at the Globe, which become moments of truth within artificial constructs.

Finally, Michelle defends method acting as a reasonable response to the kaleidoscopic conditions of film production, where scenes are shot out of sequence and actors may perform without scene partners. She emphasizes that great performances often come from actors willing to maintain character integrity throughout disjointed production processes.

Recommendations

People

  • Josh Cohen — Michelle mentions bumping into Josh Cohen, an amazing psychologist she worked with on a play 15 years ago.
  • Stella Adler — Referenced as an amazing practitioner who said if anyone compliments your acting, you’ve done a bad job because they should be experiencing the story instead.
  • Tim Crouch — Described as a polymath writer and director. Michelle performed in his piece ‘An Oak Tree,’ which has been running for 20 years with a new actor every night.
  • Arthur Miller — Mentioned in contrast to Shakespeare; Miller added extensive character descriptions to his plays like ‘The Crucible’ to ensure correct interpretation.
  • Kirsten Stewart — Referenced for her statement that great acting isn’t actually acting, which prompts discussion about what constitutes great performance.

Performances

  • An Oak Tree — A play by Tim Crouch that has been running for 20 years. It’s a duologue where one actor (Crouch) stays the same, and the other is a new person every night who performs without preparation, exploring simultaneous realities.
  • Blythe Spirit — A play where Michelle Terry played a maid early in her career. This role led to the anecdote about the girl projecting greasy hair onto her character.
  • The Crucible — Arthur Miller’s play mentioned as having extensive character descriptions added by Miller to ensure correct interpretation, contrasting with Shakespeare’s approach.
  • Midsummer Night’s Dream — Shakespeare play that the Globe programs every year during Michelle’s tenure, illustrating how the same material meets different audiences and actors each time.

Topic Timeline

  • 00:00:00 — Introduction and Michelle Terry’s background — The episode opens with an anecdote about a young girl projecting ‘greasy hair’ onto Michelle’s character. Hosts Ed and Daniel introduce the episode, explaining it features Michelle Terry, Artistic Director of the Globe Theatre. They outline the topics: her journey to the Globe, the distinction between acting and performing, and the importance of storytelling.
  • 00:03:27 — Michelle’s journey to becoming Artistic Director — Michelle explains how she started acting at age seven to make friends after moving. Despite parental concerns about financial stability, she pursued drama school after university. Her path to the Globe was unexpected—she wrote a letter during the theatre’s identity crisis, which was interpreted as a job application. She used the application process to piece herself together after having a baby.
  • 00:06:36 — The importance of storytelling and distinction between acting and performing — Michelle differentiates acting (a craft exploring someone not you in a safe environment) from performing (something we all do in various life roles). She argues storytelling in theatre, film, and TV creates safe spaces to have nuanced conversations about difficult topics, countering a polarized world that often eliminates complexity.
  • 00:08:38 — Shakespeare’s approach to character and the self — Michelle discusses how Shakespeare, writing for male actors, explored all aspects of humanity through his characters. She sees this as evidence that we all have the capacity to stand in different shoes. She describes a spectrum in performance—sometimes narrowing the gap between actor and character, sometimes widening it—where the audience can project meaning in the space between.
  • 00:11:02 — Performance in everyday life versus acting — The conversation explores whether everyday life is a performance. Michelle notes that in acting, there’s an agreed suspension of disbelief creating parallel universes (the actor and the character). What unites them is the audience. She observes how behavior changes when cameras start recording, suggesting a gap appears where people start watching themselves as they’re being watched.
  • 00:13:56 — What constitutes great acting? — Responding to Kirsten Stewart’s statement that great acting isn’t acting, Michelle references Stella Adler’s view that if people compliment your acting, you’ve done a bad job—they should be experiencing the story. She describes Tim Crouch’s play ‘An Oak Tree,’ where a new actor performs each night without preparation, exploring the simultaneous realities of the person and the character and the audience’s role in projection.
  • 00:17:15 — Shakespeare’s enduring relevance and live performance — Michelle discusses what makes Shakespeare great for exploring identity: he wrote for specific actors without nailing down exact interpretations. She contrasts this with Arthur Miller’s detailed character descriptions. She describes the unique challenges of performing at the Globe, where pigeons or rain can interrupt, creating moments of truth within artificial constructs.
  • 00:20:17 — The fluid self and authenticity — Michelle addresses whether there’s a ‘real self,’ arguing the idea of fixity scares her. She believes the self is endlessly fluid, with multiple layers operating simultaneously (like worrying about a babysitter during a performance). She discusses how constant recording and social media avatars can limit our ability to see ourselves differently and change.
  • 00:23:29 — How roles reveal unexpected aspects of self — Michelle shares the full anecdote about the girl with greasy hair. After playing a maid in ‘Blythe Spirit,’ a young girl thanked her for representing people with greasy hair. Michelle realized the girl had projected this onto her character despite Michelle wearing a hat. This taught her that the audience determines much of the meaning, and actors have limited control.
  • 00:26:04 — Theatre vs. film and defending method acting — Michelle contrasts theatre’s sequential, audience-responsive nature with film’s non-sequential, director-controlled process. She defends method acting as a reasonable response to film’s disjointed production, where actors might shoot the last scene first or perform without scene partners. Maintaining character integrity helps actors navigate these kaleidoscopic conditions.

Episode Info

  • Podcast: Philosophy For Our Times
  • Author: IAI
  • Category: Society & Culture Philosophy
  • Published: 2026-02-24T00:30:00Z
  • Duration: 00:29:21

References

Podcast Info

Transcript

[00:00:00] I came out of the performance and went to stage door and there was someone at stage door a young

[00:00:11] girl quite upset and said thank you so much for playing someone with greasy hair I I know in the

[00:00:19] age of representation like there’s there’s lots that’s not being represented there’s

[00:00:23] greasy hair and not being represented and I was like you’re welcome but as I walked away I was

[00:00:30] like but I was wearing a hat play the power of her sense of self absolutely for whatever reason

[00:00:37] on that day needed herself to feel affirmed found affirmation in my character and had totally

[00:00:44] projected greasy hair onto my character hello and welcome to philosophy for our times bringing you

[00:00:52] the world’s leading thinker

[00:00:53] on today’s biggest ideas it’s Ed here and Daniel and it’s also Daniel’s first time on the podcast

[00:00:59] is that right yes first time yeah there we go so everyone say hello Daniel send us an email in the

[00:01:05] show notes you can find it and say hello to him but Daniel you edited this episode so it’s called

[00:01:10] the philosophy of performance what can we expect so in this talk we have Michelle Terry who’s the

[00:01:16] creative director of the Globe Theatre we’ll be listening to her telling us a bit about how she

[00:01:21] came to be the the creative director of the Globe Theatre and how she came to be the creative

[00:01:23] director and then going a bit into what the self means within the world of acting and

[00:01:29] interestingly what the difference between acting and performing is in her eyes Michelle will talk

[00:01:35] a bit about the importance of storytelling in today’s increasingly polarized society

[00:01:39] and how storytelling can help bring about more nuanced conversations she’ll also go into the

[00:01:46] paradox of how acting and playing as someone else can actually reveal a lot about who we are

[00:01:53] and sometimes why it’s not good to be complimented on your acting and most importantly what you should

[00:01:59] do at the Globe when a pigeon lands on stage oh amazing and uh for those of you who don’t know

[00:02:05] what the Globe is is actually where Shakespeare back in the medieval times had his premieres for

[00:02:11] his plays and the pigeons there were probably the same as the pigeons we have today so you can

[00:02:17] imagine the stage got very dirty because it was open air but anyway um Miriam Francois is the host

[00:02:23] of this talk so without further ado let’s hand over to her

[00:02:26] from Hollywood actors who go through extreme transformations and method actors who stay in

[00:02:41] character even when the cameras aren’t rolling to classically trained Shakespeareans there are

[00:02:47] many techniques actors use to turn themselves into another person but is acting always

[00:02:53] plays an act and where is the line between our true authentic selves and the multitude of

[00:02:59] characters we all play each and every day join us of course with award-winning actor and artistic

[00:03:05] director of the Globe Theatre Michelle Terry who’s here on my left as she argues here there

[00:03:09] is no rule book and there is no single way to act both in Shakespeare’s reality or this one

[00:03:15] so please give her a very warm round of applause thank you for being here

[00:03:22] so

[00:03:23] um Michelle maybe uh for those of for those of us here who aren’t fully familiar with your

[00:03:27] trajectory do you want to just tell us a little bit about how you came to be the artistic director

[00:03:31] of the Globe yeah sure uh so I have been um acting for a really long time partly I suppose

[00:03:40] as a so we moved when I was quite young and I didn’t know anyone so my mum and dad wanted me

[00:03:45] to kind of make friends so I they I went to um a kind of local andram company basically as a way to

[00:03:52] uh I suppose essentially not be myself and be myself all at the same time um and make friends

[00:03:58] and then that was from the age of seven and then so it’s sort of been the thing that I’ve only ever

[00:04:03] known about how to cope with being alive essentially is acting um and then mum and dad were

[00:04:09] very um so I knew like that’s all I ever wanted to do mum and dad were quite uh not traditional

[00:04:17] frightened. It was an industry that none of us really understood. We didn’t know anyone that

[00:04:21] worked in the industry. It was a really unknown arena for them. My mum was a radiographer and my

[00:04:26] dad was a teacher. So their whole thing was about, but what do you do if you don’t make money? So I

[00:04:30] then took a really traditional route and went to university, but still all the time knowing this is

[00:04:34] what I wanted to do. Then went to drama school and then had about a 15 year career, mostly in

[00:04:41] theatre and then a little bit of writing and a bit of television. And then it was quite an odd

[00:04:48] way into being artistic director of the Globe because it was a theatre that I absolutely knew

[00:04:53] and loved from having worked there a lot. And then it went through quite a public crisis around

[00:05:00] an identity crisis, essentially, about who and what it was. And the predecessor left and I wrote

[00:05:07] a letter just saying I couldn’t really understand why an organisation that for me had

[00:05:11] put the artist and storytelling so at the centre of something, how it could have gone so wrong.

[00:05:16] And where were the artists in the conversation? And if they needed artists in the conversation,

[00:05:21] I’d love to be part of that conversation. And then the CEO at the time wrote back saying,

[00:05:25] that sounds like a job application. And I was like, it really didn’t, but no one else has

[00:05:30] applied clearly. So I just had the baby at the time. So I used the job application as a way of

[00:05:36] piecing myself back together, going, this is my name, this is what I believe in. And then gradually

[00:05:40] you get through four rounds of interviews and then suddenly you end up running one of the most

[00:05:43] amazing things in the world. So I still don’t really know. That’s sort of how I got there.

[00:05:48] And it’s the greatest privilege of my life to be able to talk, not just talk about the importance

[00:05:54] of storytelling, but also practice the importance of storytelling and see the impact of storytelling

[00:05:59] intergenerationally, like watching young kids. It’s amazing.

[00:06:05] Wow, what a story. I mean, I feel like there are so many lessons there. First of all, the

[00:06:10] first one being, you know, they always say, if you don’t ask, you don’t get. But you weren’t even

[00:06:14] asking and you got. So amazing. And also sort of this idea of storytelling through the generations.

[00:06:20] And as somebody who’s also in the arts, I’m very curious why you feel that storytelling is so

[00:06:26] important, because I do think it’s very devalued currently. And is there a particular reason why

[00:06:31] storytelling might be particularly important at the time we find ourselves in now?

[00:06:36] A hundred percent. I just bumped into Josh Cohen, who is this amazing,

[00:06:40] psychologist. And we worked together on a play about 15 years ago. And I suppose to start off,

[00:06:48] I would just differentiate between acting and performing. And acting for me is a craft. And

[00:06:54] performing is something that we all do. Like, I think we all recognize that we have roles in our

[00:06:58] life that we switch in and out of all the time. Acting is a really particular craft of exploring

[00:07:04] someone that’s not you and then sharing the someone that’s not you with other people in

[00:07:10] the most safe environment that you could possibly have. So whether that’s TV or film or theater,

[00:07:17] we’re sort of, for me, it’s always an exploration of the self in a really safe environment. You know,

[00:07:22] the play is going to start at a certain time and it’s going to end at a certain time. You might

[00:07:26] confront things about you or the state of the world, but it will end and it will be all right.

[00:07:30] And we’ll all go back to, it will all go back to life afterwards. And again, we were just talking

[00:07:35] about the power of television, the power of film. We were just talking about adolescence, the power

[00:07:39] of those things. And I think that’s a really important part of the play. And I think that’s

[00:07:40] a really important part of the play. And I think that’s a really important part of the play. And I think

[00:07:40] those stories in a very safe construct can put out some of the most difficult conversations of our

[00:07:45] time, but safely find a way to have nuance and have debate and have discussion about something

[00:07:51] in a world that externally sort of wants everyone to take a position, be singular and essentially

[00:07:58] disseminate nuance and complexity. So that’s for me from, that’s what kids do with role play. And

[00:08:04] that’s what we keep doing for the rest of our lives. But we know it, we know that in Greek,

[00:08:09] they put, you know,

[00:08:10] we knew that, but somehow, how have we forgotten that? So weirdly, I think we’re in a time of trying

[00:08:19] to remember that bit going, actually, stories are the things that will help us have the conversation,

[00:08:24] if not necessarily solve the problem.

[00:08:26] Yeah, amazing. Thank you so much. Well, you mentioned that distinction between acting and

[00:08:30] performance. So how has the quote, acting it many ways from Shakespeare’s Macbeth inspired

[00:08:35] your approach to acting, theatre and performance?

[00:08:38] Yeah.

[00:08:40] I suppose I’ll come to that as from a position of artistic director first. So I inherited this

[00:08:46] canon that historically was written for male performers, but not, sorry, male actors, but not

[00:08:57] all male characters. So inherent in the text is a writer that’s going, I know I have a whole company

[00:09:02] of men, but I’m also really interested in understanding all these different bits of all of

[00:09:08] us, whether that’s mostly.

[00:09:10] exploring power whether so through the prism of history through the prism of kings through the

[00:09:14] prism of women through the prism of relationships he sort of atomizes and uh it’s so kaleidoscopic

[00:09:20] this amazing uh canon uh i definitely come from the place where i think he wrote all the plays

[00:09:27] uh so that to me is again going back to the sense of self this is an amazing human being that was

[00:09:34] able to stand in the shoes of over a thousand different people or a thousand different versions

[00:09:39] of him which to me goes we all have that capacity we all have the ability to stand in the shoes of

[00:09:45] the most jealous bit of ourself and call it a yargo or the most tyrannical bit of ourself and

[00:09:50] call it richard iii um and so there’s something that he is asking for which is an exploration of

[00:09:55] all those bits of us through the again through the prism of role play and so what’s amazing to

[00:10:01] be custodian of that canon means that there’s not um there’s a spectrum of where we are on on uh

[00:10:08] you know

[00:10:09] Where does lived experience come into acting?

[00:10:12] And sometimes you’re trying to squish the gap

[00:10:14] between actor and character

[00:10:15] and they become sort of almost inextricably linked

[00:10:18] that they’re not acting at all.

[00:10:19] And sometimes you’re really trying to widen the gap.

[00:10:22] And I think there’s something about in the gap between

[00:10:24] of that width where you know this is the actor

[00:10:27] and you know this is the character,

[00:10:29] in the middle somewhere the audience can get in

[00:10:31] knowing that this person isn’t really a tyrant,

[00:10:34] isn’t really an abuser, isn’t really these things,

[00:10:36] but you can safely have a conversation

[00:10:38] about the play.

[00:10:39] So I think there’s a spec for me,

[00:10:41] the joy of the job is that spectrum.

[00:10:43] Sometimes you get very close to your idea of yourself

[00:10:46] or who you think you are

[00:10:47] and sometimes you get very far away from yourself.

[00:10:51] And what is the connection between the two?

[00:10:54] Because I guess it touches on this idea of,

[00:10:55] you know, is everyday life a performance?

[00:10:58] But if it is, then how does that connect

[00:10:59] to the actual act of acting?

[00:11:02] Yeah, well I guess that’s where in life

[00:11:06] you’re sort of practising.

[00:11:08] What you then put into your acting.

[00:11:11] For me, so you spend all your time observing people,

[00:11:15] looking at how people respond in given circumstance,

[00:11:17] but in performance is real.

[00:11:21] Like we know right now we’re all in the tent

[00:11:24] and you’re all watching us.

[00:11:26] We’re all in the same space.

[00:11:28] When you’re acting, we all agree that for the next two hours

[00:11:31] we’re going to go to Athens and we’re going to agree

[00:11:33] that now we are in the Forest of Arden

[00:11:35] and we suspend our disbelief.

[00:11:37] And so you have these two,

[00:11:38] two parallel kind of universes going on.

[00:11:40] There’s a true universe where it’s Michelle Terry talking,

[00:11:43] but then we also agree that I’m also Rosalind.

[00:11:46] So that’s the acting bit is over there.

[00:11:49] And I suppose the bit that unites them is

[00:11:53] the audience, I guess.

[00:11:57] Like someone asked an amazing question

[00:11:59] in one of the talks yesterday,

[00:12:00] that are you closer to yourself if you’re a hermit?

[00:12:05] Do you, are you then sort of living

[00:12:07] with yourself if you’ve got nobody to kind of

[00:12:09] as a touchstone to rub up against?

[00:12:12] And I suppose in some sense, yes,

[00:12:14] because the thing that challenges the sense of self

[00:12:17] is when you come into contact with another person

[00:12:19] and then we’re having a conversation we’ve never met.

[00:12:22] We’re sort of rubbing up against each other going,

[00:12:24] who are you and what do, where do you stand in the world?

[00:12:26] And we’re being witnessed by people,

[00:12:28] which also adds another element of,

[00:12:31] and it’s being recorded.

[00:12:32] So there’s a whole host of stuff that is going on

[00:12:35] in our sense of self while we’re figuring out,

[00:12:37] is this a useful conversation to have?

[00:12:39] Yeah.

[00:12:40] So, and I mean, we know the rule of in life,

[00:12:43] as soon as you switch the camera on,

[00:12:44] people’s behaviours change immediately, right?

[00:12:46] 100%.

[00:12:46] Yeah.

[00:12:47] It’s a very strange experiment.

[00:12:49] You could take a room full of people,

[00:12:50] let them chat away.

[00:12:51] As soon as you hit record,

[00:12:53] something changes in the energy of the room.

[00:12:56] Yeah.

[00:12:57] Is it the self-awareness thing?

[00:12:59] Is it suddenly awareness that you have to play a role

[00:13:01] as opposed to be?

[00:13:03] What do you think it is?

[00:13:05] Well, maybe it’s something about that.

[00:13:07] Suddenly there’s a gap appears.

[00:13:09] Like you start to watch yourself

[00:13:11] as much as you are being watched.

[00:13:15] It was quite interesting doing a conversation

[00:13:17] about the sense of self yesterday

[00:13:18] because I thought we’re not going to get,

[00:13:20] almost you can’t get close to answering that

[00:13:23] because there’s a bit of you going,

[00:13:26] but it’s being recorded

[00:13:27] and it’s going to be out there forever

[00:13:28] and that’s going to fix me to something,

[00:13:30] but I might change my mind tomorrow.

[00:13:31] So like…

[00:13:32] And you’re not allowed to change your mind.

[00:13:33] And you’re not allowed to change your mind.

[00:13:34] And yet the self is not fixed

[00:13:36] and is endlessly changing.

[00:13:37] And it’s going to be fluid.

[00:13:37] So it’s…

[00:13:38] That touches on another point I wanted to ask you about,

[00:13:40] which is about this idea of…

[00:13:42] Yeah, I remember hearing Kirsten Stewart a few years ago

[00:13:45] saying, people were saying,

[00:13:47] oh, she’s such a natural actress.

[00:13:49] And she said, well, really great acting

[00:13:51] isn’t actually acting.

[00:13:53] And I was wondering what you thought about that statement

[00:13:56] because there’s something about it being like,

[00:13:58] well, she’s so natural that it is natural,

[00:14:01] but actually is it natural?

[00:14:03] So what is great acting?

[00:14:05] Is it actually not acting?

[00:14:06] Is it tapping into like a true version of yourself?

[00:14:10] Or is it just having perfected the craft

[00:14:12] of sort of mimicking a role or a character?

[00:14:16] Yeah, wow.

[00:14:19] I’m just looking at my part.

[00:14:21] We’ve just done a play together

[00:14:23] and there’s this amazing practitioner called Stella Adler

[00:14:25] that says if anyone comes up to you and says,

[00:14:27] you were so good at acting,

[00:14:29] you were so brilliant tonight,

[00:14:31] you should know that you’ve done a bad job

[00:14:32] because everyone’s applauding you for your acting.

[00:14:36] And so they…

[00:14:36] They were watching you do your acting

[00:14:39] rather than experiencing the story

[00:14:41] and having some kind of self-evaluation

[00:14:43] or self-reflection.

[00:14:45] And I suppose there is some truth in that.

[00:14:48] I just did this piece last week

[00:14:49] with the amazing Tim Crouch.

[00:14:51] I don’t know if anyone knows him as a…

[00:14:54] So he’s a polymath, really.

[00:14:56] He’s a writer, he’s a director.

[00:14:57] And there’s this piece,

[00:14:59] if you ever get the chance to see it, go.

[00:15:01] It’s called An Oak Tree.

[00:15:03] It’s been running for 20 years

[00:15:04] and it’s a duologue.

[00:15:06] And the only thing that stays the same

[00:15:09] is that he plays one character

[00:15:11] and the other person coming in has never played it.

[00:15:15] And it’s a new person every night.

[00:15:17] And you rock up, you test the microphone,

[00:15:20] you test the earpiece,

[00:15:21] you test that the font is big enough

[00:15:22] that you can read the script

[00:15:24] that he’s going to give you throughout the play.

[00:15:26] And he’s really playing with this idea.

[00:15:29] So I can’t prepare my great acting.

[00:15:32] I can’t prepare what…

[00:15:34] Because I don’t know what I’m going to be doing.

[00:15:36] And so he really plays with this idea

[00:15:38] of the simultaneous world.

[00:15:41] That on one level,

[00:15:42] the audience are watching a person

[00:15:45] be in the most truest circumstance,

[00:15:49] which is I literally don’t know what I’m doing.

[00:15:51] I don’t know what is about to happen next.

[00:15:54] So you’re in a world that is very true.

[00:15:56] But at the same time,

[00:15:57] he also gives me a name that’s not my own

[00:15:59] and a character description that’s not my own.

[00:16:01] And you suddenly realise the power of projection

[00:16:03] from the audience that actually

[00:16:05] the creation of great people,

[00:16:06] great character,

[00:16:07] not necessarily great acting,

[00:16:09] but the creation of character

[00:16:10] comes from the space

[00:16:11] where the audience can project

[00:16:12] them onto the character

[00:16:14] as much as you trying to force a character onto them.

[00:16:18] And there was this amazing moment on stage

[00:16:19] where he left me on my own for…

[00:16:22] He said, I’m going to go and get you a glass of water now

[00:16:24] and left me on my own for a minute.

[00:16:27] And we all knew in the room that

[00:16:29] Michelle was on her own,

[00:16:31] not knowing where he’d gone

[00:16:33] and with nothing to say and left.

[00:16:35] Like,

[00:16:36] so everyone knew Michelle was on her own,

[00:16:39] but there was a soundtrack playing

[00:16:40] that gave us the sense of the given circumstance

[00:16:42] that I won’t spoil

[00:16:43] because you need to go and see the piece.

[00:16:45] But we also knew that there was another reality going on.

[00:16:48] So there was a kind of empathy for Michelle, the person,

[00:16:51] and then projection onto the character called dot, dot, dot,

[00:16:54] that I won’t say

[00:16:54] because you’ve absolutely got to go and see it.

[00:16:56] But it totally messes with your mind

[00:16:58] about who is creating the performance.

[00:17:01] Wow.

[00:17:02] That’s, I mean, you sold it.

[00:17:04] I’m getting tickets tonight.

[00:17:05] Don’t go and see it.

[00:17:06] Do it.

[00:17:07] Oh, no, doing it sounds like the one.

[00:17:09] It sounds like you learn about yourself a fair bit.

[00:17:11] So thank you for that.

[00:17:13] So let’s talk a little bit about Shakespeare.

[00:17:15] What is it about Shakespeare that makes him so great

[00:17:18] for exploring multiple, even contradictory characters

[00:17:21] and aspects of human identity?

[00:17:24] It’s quite a rare thing to have.

[00:17:26] I mean, I know he was writing 400 years ago.

[00:17:28] He absolutely knew who he was writing for.

[00:17:30] So in a way, character description was sort of unnecessary.

[00:17:33] He knew that this person would then go and convert it

[00:17:36] and interpret it.

[00:17:37] It’s really rare to get a writer

[00:17:39] that doesn’t want to also nail down

[00:17:43] exactly what they want you to do in the performance.

[00:17:45] So the stage directions or the character descriptions.

[00:17:47] We’ve got a production of The Crucible on at the minute.

[00:17:50] Arthur Miller’s amazing play.

[00:17:52] It’s on it.

[00:17:52] And anyone who knows that script knows

[00:17:54] that when he first wrote it,

[00:17:56] he gave it in and everyone did it.

[00:17:58] And he was like, oh my God,

[00:18:00] that’s apt, they’ve got it wrong, essentially.

[00:18:02] So now when you read a version of the script,

[00:18:04] there are these endless pages of character,

[00:18:06] descriptions because he wanted to just make sure

[00:18:09] there was the best possible chance of getting it right.

[00:18:13] That’s such an unbelievable pressure on a live experience

[00:18:17] because the chances of getting it right are really slim.

[00:18:20] And especially when you’re playing somewhere at the Globe

[00:18:22] where right is an impossibility

[00:18:26] because you can have prepared to be or not to be in your room

[00:18:29] and have absolutely nailed it.

[00:18:30] But at the point that you start that speech,

[00:18:32] a pigeon is going to land and completely upstage you

[00:18:34] or the rain is going to come in.

[00:18:36] And everyone’s going to suddenly start getting their ponchos on.

[00:18:39] So it’s sort of the most beautiful provocation to just be.

[00:18:44] So it means that you can always meet this material,

[00:18:47] A, as an audience member.

[00:18:49] We have a thing where we’ve programmed

[00:18:51] Midsummer Night’s Dream every year of my tenure.

[00:18:53] But it sort of doesn’t matter

[00:18:55] because every time you come back to it,

[00:18:56] you are different, the audience are different.

[00:18:58] And I think there’s such an unbelievable trust in that,

[00:19:03] the alchemy of where actor meets material,

[00:19:05] where it meets the audience.

[00:19:06] And the time of day and the space you’re playing it in.

[00:19:09] It’s a really amazing provocation to an actor without not going.

[00:19:13] And when you sit on this chair, you need to look here

[00:19:16] and then you need to breathe in.

[00:19:17] And then it’s like, oh, my gosh, that’s a mathematical sum

[00:19:21] that’s quite hard to get an answer to.

[00:19:23] I mean, it sounds terrifying, to be honest.

[00:19:25] It’s not.

[00:19:25] Oh, there’s no?

[00:19:26] Yeah.

[00:19:26] Why?

[00:19:27] To perform in, I guess.

[00:19:28] Well, I suppose as a bit of a control freak

[00:19:30] and as somebody who’s used to controlling the parameters

[00:19:32] of the engagement that, you know, the pigeon landing

[00:19:35] halfway through the monologue is going to disturb me.

[00:19:38] Yes.

[00:19:38] It will totally, yeah, it will do that, definitely.

[00:19:40] Probably be heavily focused on the pigeon at that point.

[00:19:43] And then the ponchos.

[00:19:44] Yeah, and the pigeon is asking you to as well.

[00:19:46] Right.

[00:19:47] Do you then just adapt around the pigeon?

[00:19:50] I mean, is that also part of the beauty of the performance

[00:19:52] in those environments that you kind of can allow

[00:19:55] these interruptions to become part of the flow of the play?

[00:19:58] Totally.

[00:19:58] Yeah.

[00:19:59] Yeah, because that’s, it’s almost the truest thing

[00:20:01] that’s going to happen on that day because everyone knows

[00:20:03] I’ve rehearsed my lines and practiced it for six weeks.

[00:20:05] And you all know that we’re not really in Elsinore.

[00:20:08] And then the pigeon comes and goes, but I’m really here.

[00:20:11] And everyone goes, yeah, a moment of truth

[00:20:12] in something entirely artificial.

[00:20:14] Yeah.

[00:20:15] So let me ask you a little about this idea

[00:20:17] that we’ve touched on already, this idea of the real self.

[00:20:20] How does the idea that there might not be a real self,

[00:20:24] which some people here, of course, will debate,

[00:20:26] unsettle our need for something real?

[00:20:29] You know, is it that there’s, you know,

[00:20:31] this ambiguity over whether there is even a real self?

[00:20:34] And we talk all the time,

[00:20:35] there’s a lot of therapy books,

[00:20:36] you can find some at the bookshop,

[00:20:37] telling you about finding your authentic self,

[00:20:39] but there’s a debate over whether that’s even real.

[00:20:42] So is acting, you know, a way of getting to that?

[00:20:46] Or is it an exploration of the multitudes

[00:20:48] that maybe tell us that there isn’t really one?

[00:20:52] I suppose because of, for whatever reason,

[00:20:55] I’ve chosen this career.

[00:20:58] I think the idea of fixity scares me a bit.

[00:21:03] So I’ve,

[00:21:05] I suppose I’ve spent most of my career

[00:21:07] doing a very live art form

[00:21:09] where presence is the thing that you’re trying to get to.

[00:21:14] So it’s not that there’s not a self,

[00:21:16] like absolutely you can be in the middle of three sisters

[00:21:20] and having a very complicated scene with your three sisters

[00:21:23] and then going,

[00:21:24] but we’re taking a really long time doing this play

[00:21:26] and we’re going to miss the last train

[00:21:27] to get home for the babysitter.

[00:21:29] So like there’s another self that is also commenting

[00:21:32] on where you are,

[00:21:34] but I suppose that’s also,

[00:21:35] that’s also true in life.

[00:21:35] Like we’re sat here now,

[00:21:37] but you’re also going,

[00:21:38] this is great,

[00:21:39] but we need to get to a Q&A.

[00:21:41] It does help there’s a panel,

[00:21:43] so letting us know that at the back.

[00:21:45] Yeah.

[00:21:45] So there’s,

[00:21:46] I guess there is a divided self,

[00:21:48] I guess,

[00:21:48] which in acting you’re exploring or exploiting.

[00:21:52] And I suppose that’s the bit

[00:21:53] why maybe I’ve not landed in film or television so much

[00:21:56] because the idea that that’s the performance,

[00:21:59] I would,

[00:21:59] I would go,

[00:21:59] oh,

[00:22:00] but there’s a thousand other ways

[00:22:01] that I would have done that moment

[00:22:03] or maybe why we resisted,

[00:22:05] just filming stuff because you go,

[00:22:06] that’s,

[00:22:06] I might change my mind in 10 minutes,

[00:22:08] let alone 10 years.

[00:22:10] So I think there is a self,

[00:22:12] but the self is endlessly fluid.

[00:22:15] Yeah.

[00:22:15] Sounds very freeing actually without the lenses.

[00:22:18] And I think about that in the context of a generation

[00:22:20] where most of us are filming ourselves all the time,

[00:22:23] doing everything.

[00:22:25] Yeah.

[00:22:25] And the limitations that places potentially

[00:22:27] on our ability to see ourselves differently.

[00:22:29] If we have to kind of then conform

[00:22:30] to the version that we’ve created.

[00:22:33] Yeah.

[00:22:33] Yeah.

[00:22:34] The avatar.

[00:22:35] Yeah.

[00:22:35] That we exist in social media and other spaces.

[00:22:38] Or that then you put out there

[00:22:39] and other people need you to then maintain.

[00:22:42] Like there’s enough in your own family

[00:22:43] where people are like,

[00:22:43] but you’re like this.

[00:22:44] You do like,

[00:22:46] you like lemons.

[00:22:47] I just know,

[00:22:47] I need you to like lemons.

[00:22:48] I don’t like lemons anymore.

[00:22:50] You change their sense of self

[00:22:52] if you don’t like lemons anymore

[00:22:53] and no one likes that.

[00:22:54] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:56] I mean,

[00:22:56] my cousin is called Amandine,

[00:22:57] which in French is a reference to almonds

[00:23:00] and she hates almonds,

[00:23:02] but it was not allowed for her to hate almonds.

[00:23:04] Right.

[00:23:04] Because her name is Amandine.

[00:23:06] So you have to like almonds.

[00:23:07] Very disturbing to everyone

[00:23:09] that she could not like.

[00:23:10] Anyway.

[00:23:11] Yeah.

[00:23:12] The name that you give it.

[00:23:13] Yes.

[00:23:14] If you’re called almond,

[00:23:16] basically you have to like almonds.

[00:23:17] It just doesn’t make sense otherwise.

[00:23:19] So yes,

[00:23:20] I hear you on that one.

[00:23:21] Wow.

[00:23:22] What a narrative.

[00:23:23] Ever.

[00:23:23] Imagine.

[00:23:24] And you actually despise them.

[00:23:27] Has a particular role ever changed

[00:23:29] the way that you see yourself

[00:23:31] or maybe revealed something

[00:23:34] to you that you don’t like?

[00:23:34] What are you unexpected about yourself?

[00:23:38] There’s one,

[00:23:39] I think I mentioned it yesterday.

[00:23:40] One of my first ever roles

[00:23:43] coming out of drama school.

[00:23:44] And again,

[00:23:44] that thing where you want to give your best performance

[00:23:46] and you desperately want audience to like you

[00:23:48] and you desperately want to get another job out of it.

[00:23:50] And I was playing a maid in Blythe Spirit.

[00:23:53] And I’m really sorry,

[00:23:54] maybe you all heard me say this yesterday,

[00:23:56] but I came out of the performance

[00:23:57] and went to stage door

[00:23:58] and there was someone at stage door,

[00:24:01] a young girl quite upset.

[00:24:02] And,

[00:24:03] you know,

[00:24:04] and said,

[00:24:05] thank you so much for playing someone with greasy hair.

[00:24:08] I know in the age of representation,

[00:24:11] like there’s lots that’s not being represented.

[00:24:14] Greasy hair and not being represented.

[00:24:16] And she was like,

[00:24:17] thank I’ve got greasy hair

[00:24:18] and I never see people with greasy hair on stage.

[00:24:22] And I was like,

[00:24:23] you’re welcome.

[00:24:25] But as I walked away,

[00:24:26] I was like,

[00:24:27] but I was wearing a hat.

[00:24:30] So I was like,

[00:24:31] oh my God,

[00:24:32] the power of her sense of humor,

[00:24:34] her sense of self,

[00:24:35] absolutely for whatever reason on that day

[00:24:37] needed herself to feel affirmed,

[00:24:40] found affirmation in my character

[00:24:41] and had totally projected greasy hair onto my character.

[00:24:45] And I was like,

[00:24:45] wow,

[00:24:46] I’m really not in control of,

[00:24:47] of a lot of what I’m doing.

[00:24:49] So it was sort of after three years of,

[00:24:52] lots of painful three years at drama school,

[00:24:55] I got the best lesson in that really.

[00:24:58] Wow.

[00:24:59] Which was that the audience is,

[00:25:01] I mean,

[00:25:02] in huge part,

[00:25:04] determining the meaning.

[00:25:05] Most part.

[00:25:06] Most part.

[00:25:07] I’d say.

[00:25:07] Yeah.

[00:25:07] So that’s so interesting.

[00:25:08] Cause that really is what distinguishes obviously film and theater.

[00:25:13] Yeah.

[00:25:14] So the,

[00:25:14] the audience in theater is playing a much more critical role that maybe we

[00:25:19] even give it credit for typically.

[00:25:21] Completely.

[00:25:22] And I suppose as well,

[00:25:23] cause that’s the ultra live relationship between the actor and the audience.

[00:25:27] So again,

[00:25:28] you know that when you’re on stage and you know that someone’s just moved a

[00:25:32] piece of paper over there.

[00:25:32] So you might need to slightly,

[00:25:34] raise your voice and then,

[00:25:35] then you’ve got a new annual doing Shakespeare.

[00:25:36] You’ve got maybe a group of students down here that are translating the play

[00:25:40] to each other at the same time as you’re trying to perform and everyone can

[00:25:43] see them talking to each other,

[00:25:44] but they’re translating the place.

[00:25:45] And therefore all of this stuff,

[00:25:46] that’s,

[00:25:47] that’s such an ultra live relationship.

[00:25:49] Whereas as an actor in television and film,

[00:25:51] you have none of that,

[00:25:53] which is why it is a director’s editors medium.

[00:25:56] You sort of go,

[00:25:57] I’ll give you what I’ve got,

[00:25:58] but you have no idea how it’s going to be interpreted in a way.

[00:26:02] Yeah.

[00:26:04] And of course you also don’t have that,

[00:26:05] the beauty that you get in theater of doing things sequentially and then having

[00:26:10] the sort of going on the journey,

[00:26:12] right.

[00:26:12] You’re just like turn up right now,

[00:26:14] now cry hysterically.

[00:26:15] Yeah.

[00:26:15] And then the next scene you’re going to be jumping for joy because you’ve just

[00:26:18] received your first child’s birth or whatever it may be.

[00:26:22] And I suppose that speaks to the provocation in the discussion,

[00:26:25] which is,

[00:26:25] I think why I can understand why some people do what we call method acting.

[00:26:31] Because if you’re playing a role,

[00:26:32] where you’re,

[00:26:33] you’re going to do that,

[00:26:33] you’re going to shoot the first scene of the film.

[00:26:35] We probably shoot the last scene of the film on the first day and the first

[00:26:38] scene of the film on the last day.

[00:26:40] But if you’re where you’re going to have to maintain a sense of character and

[00:26:44] maintain a sense of dramaturgy and hold the whole thing in your head,

[00:26:49] it’s very hard when someone’s then go,

[00:26:50] I absolutely loved you in that TV program.

[00:26:53] Can we have a conversation?

[00:26:53] It’s like,

[00:26:54] well,

[00:26:54] I’ve now got to go and play where I’m deeply upset.

[00:26:57] Also,

[00:26:58] sometimes we were just saying,

[00:26:59] you can often do a scene where your scene partner isn’t even there.

[00:27:02] Like there,

[00:27:03] they’ve got a later call.

[00:27:04] So you’re doing a scene in a,

[00:27:06] I remember doing a scene in a piece where I played a murderer and spoiler alert,

[00:27:10] it was me.

[00:27:13] And I remembered in the last scene in the cell being interviewed and I wasn’t even playing opposite the person who interviewed me.

[00:27:19] They weren’t,

[00:27:20] they weren’t there.

[00:27:20] So I just had to absolutely not only imagine where my character might be in that moment,

[00:27:25] but also imagine how somebody might be reacting to me.

[00:27:28] Like it’s,

[00:27:29] and project that on a black dot or not even a black,

[00:27:31] didn’t get that.

[00:27:32] You didn’t even get it.

[00:27:33] Yes.

[00:27:33] Oh,

[00:27:33] I can imagine where they were.

[00:27:35] They were.

[00:27:36] And so that’s intense.

[00:27:38] So I totally understand.

[00:27:39] I think method acting often gets a bad,

[00:27:41] bad press.

[00:27:42] Like,

[00:27:42] why can’t you just just try acting?

[00:27:43] But actually the conditions are so kind of kaleidoscopic.

[00:27:50] Of course,

[00:27:50] if you want to hold an integrity of something,

[00:27:53] I can totally understand why you’d want to stay in character.

[00:27:56] And we’ve,

[00:27:56] we’ve had some of the most amazing performances from people willing to go on that journey,

[00:28:01] right?

[00:28:03] Thank you to Michelle.

[00:28:04] Thank you.

[00:28:05] Thank you so much.

[00:28:06] Thank you.

[00:28:10] Thank you for listening to philosophy for our times.

[00:28:13] If you enjoyed the episode,

[00:28:14] don’t forget to like share and subscribe.

[00:28:17] And if you have any thoughts,

[00:28:19] you can find our email in the show notes.

[00:28:21] And Daniel,

[00:28:22] did you yourself have any thoughts on the episode?

[00:28:24] I did.

[00:28:24] I mean,

[00:28:25] first of all,

[00:28:25] I found it really engaging and I really appreciate to tell Michelle expressed herself.

[00:28:31] I thought she was very funny.

[00:28:32] And what particularly stood out to me was her description of this,

[00:28:37] these absurd layers of performance and acting that can go on during a performance.

[00:28:41] This idea that you can have the actor playing a role,

[00:28:45] but at the same time,

[00:28:46] you have these very banal mundane aspects of performance that we,

[00:28:52] that we carry out day to day as,

[00:28:55] as humans.

[00:28:55] And I just thought that brings a whole new level to how I will see acting performance from,

[00:29:00] from now on.

[00:29:02] Awesome.

[00:29:03] Yeah.

[00:29:03] So yeah,

[00:29:03] if you have any,

[00:29:04] anything to say if you want to riff off of what Daniel said,

[00:29:08] or you know,

[00:29:10] just get in contact with us,

[00:29:11] then yeah,

[00:29:11] like we said,

[00:29:12] email in the show notes,

[00:29:13] but until next time,

[00:29:15] stay safe,

[00:29:16] take care and we will see you soon.

[00:29:18] Bye.

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