Why mindfulness got weird
Summary
Host Sean Illing welcomes Jon Kabat-Zinn, the pioneering scientist and author behind the mindfulness movement, to discuss the 30th anniversary of his seminal book Wherever You Go, There You Are. The conversation explores the core definition of mindfulness as awareness and the opposite state of mindlessness. Kabat-Zinn emphasizes that mindfulness is not a goal-oriented activity but a way of inhabiting the present moment without striving for a special state or result.
They delve into the practical challenges of maintaining a practice in a distracting world. Kabat-Zinn explains that the constant narrative of the self—the “story of me”—is a primary obstacle, and meditation helps cultivate the awareness to observe this narrative without being consumed by it. The discussion acknowledges the difficulty of the practice, with Illing sharing his own experiences of inconsistency and frustration, and Kabat-Zinn reframing the recognition of distraction as itself an act of awareness and a return to the present.
The episode critically examines the mainstreaming and potential commodification of mindfulness, often termed “McMindfulness.” While acknowledging the paradox of Silicon Valley companies promoting meditation while designing attention-harvesting technologies, Kabat-Zinn expresses a pragmatic view, trusting that inauthentic applications will fall away. The conversation highlights the crucial need to couple mindfulness with an ethical foundation, drawing parallels to the Hippocratic Oath’s “first, do no harm” principle, especially in the context of powerful technologies like AI and autonomous weapons.
In the final segment, Kabat-Zinn offers parting wisdom on living a life that matters by recognizing the preciousness of the present moment and our own miraculous existence. The episode concludes with a guided meditation from Kabat-Zinn, inviting listeners to simply be aware of the body breathing and to gently return to that awareness whenever the mind wanders.
Recommendations
Books
- Wherever You Go, There You Are — Jon Kabat-Zinn’s mega-bestseller, originally published in 1994 and discussed here on its 30th anniversary. It is a foundational text of the secular mindfulness movement in the West.
People
- Buddha — Referenced by Kabat-Zinn as the source of the fundamental insight that ‘you are not who you think you are’ and that the self is an illusion, which is central to understanding the aim of mindfulness practice.
- Jim Rice — Hall of Fame baseball player for the Boston Red Sox. Kabat-Zinn recounts being asked in the 1970s to consult with Rice on using mindfulness to overcome a batting slump, an early example of applying the practice in sports.
Topic Timeline
- 00:03:57 — Introduction: The Mainstreaming and Commodification of Mindfulness — Sean Illing introduces the episode’s central theme: the massive growth of mindfulness meditation in America since 2012, its presence in workplaces and apps, and the potential cost of its mainstreaming. He poses the critical question of whether turning meditation into a productivity hack means we’ve “lost the plot,” setting the stage for a conversation with pioneer Jon Kabat-Zinn about the essence and ethics of the practice.
- 00:04:37 — Defining Mindfulness as Awareness vs. Mindlessness — Kabat-Zinn defines mindfulness as synonymous with human awareness, a capacity we are born with. He clarifies that its opposite is mindlessness—unawareness and being out of touch with reality. He stresses that mindfulness is the one human activity engaged in for no extrinsic purpose or goal; it’s about living fully in the only moment we ever have, which is now, without trying to attain a special feeling or state.
- 00:07:57 — The Illusory Self and the Constant Narrative — The discussion turns to the nature of the self. Kabat-Zinn agrees that the self is an illusion, a narrative—“the story of me”—that is constantly reinforced. He explains that meditation reveals this never-ending narrative stream, but also reveals that our awareness is not touched by it. This realization offers a new degree of freedom: we don’t have to fall into every thought stream but can observe it from a place of awareness.
- 00:09:54 — Why Mindfulness Practice is So Difficult — Sean Illing shares his personal struggle with an inconsistent and frustrating meditation practice, asking why it’s so hard to be mindful. Kabat-Zinn attributes the difficulty to our reactive minds and the deeply ingrained habit of generating the illusory self. He notes this is a fundamental insight of Buddhist teaching: “you are not who you think you are.” He then guides a brief collective moment of awareness, inviting listeners to simply tune into their breath.
- 00:20:50 — Confronting ‘McMindfulness’ and Commercial Co-option — Illing raises the term “McMindfulness,” which critiques how the practice has been co-opted by industry. Kabat-Zinn responds pragmatically, stating he doesn’t see it as a big problem, believing inauthentic applications will naturally fall away. He refuses to “police the waterfront,” trusting that the true dharma (teaching) will take care of itself, while affirming the profound importance of genuine mindfulness in our lives.
- 00:25:29 — Mindfulness, Ethics, and Technology in Silicon Valley — The conversation addresses the specific concern of mindfulness being used in Silicon Valley as a tool for productivity and self-optimization within companies that profit from harvesting attention. Kabat-Zinn acknowledges the “fatal contradiction” and the corrupting potential of trillion-dollar profits. He emphasizes the urgent need to couple mindfulness with an ethical foundation—compassion and a vow to minimize harm—especially as technologies like AI and autonomous weapons develop.
- 00:30:31 — The Political and Ethical Danger of Inward Focus — Illing expresses a political concern: that an excessive focus on inner life and coping mechanisms can distract from the struggle to change a broken world. He argues that a journey inward must ultimately lead outward, away from the ego and toward engagement with others. Kabat-Zinn fully agrees, framing the current historical moment as requiring us to “practice medicine for the world” by applying the Hippocratic Oath (first, do no harm) on a planetary scale.
- 00:38:47 — Closing Meditation and Parting Wisdom on Living Fully — The episode concludes with a guided meditation from Kabat-Zinn. He invites listeners to bring awareness to the body sitting and breathing, to notice when the mind wanders into narrative, and to gently return to awareness without judgment. Earlier, he offered parting wisdom: recognize the preciousness of the moment and of your own miraculous existence. The best way to live is to do what you love, contribute, and be present for it, letting awareness be your guide and your domicile.
Episode Info
- Podcast: The Gray Area with Sean Illing
- Author: Vox
- Category: Society & Culture Philosophy News Politics News Commentary
- Published: 2026-02-23T09:00:00Z
- Duration: 00:42:17
References
- URL PocketCasts: https://pocketcasts.com/podcast/1d3ce9a0-ae3d-0133-2e33-6dc413d6d41d/episode/c82bb5b1-c9be-489a-8154-fc86e81383c9/
- Episode UUID: c82bb5b1-c9be-489a-8154-fc86e81383c9
Podcast Info
- Name: The Gray Area with Sean Illing
- Type: episodic
- Site: https://www.vox.com/vox-conversations-podcast
- UUID: 1d3ce9a0-ae3d-0133-2e33-6dc413d6d41d
Transcript
[00:00:00] Support for this show comes from the Working Forest Initiative.
[00:00:04] The working forest industry is committed to planting more trees than they harvest.
[00:00:08] More than 1 billion seedlings are planted in U.S. working forests every year.
[00:00:13] From biologists to GIS analysts, hiring managers, accountants, and more,
[00:00:18] working forest professionals have dedicated their focus towards sustainability,
[00:00:22] using their expertise to help ensure a healthy future for America’s forests.
[00:00:27] They say they don’t just plan for the future, they plan it.
[00:00:31] You can learn more at workingforestinitiative.com.
[00:00:57] What convinced him?
[00:00:59] Follow Solutions with Henry Blodgett wherever you get your podcasts to hear more.
[00:01:05] Hey, everyone. It’s Sean.
[00:01:06] You know, it’s a chaotic time, and it can be really hard to stay focused when things are so crazy.
[00:01:14] When I feel like that, I turn to one of my all-time favorite episodes of The Gray Area.
[00:01:19] It’s a conversation with Jon Kabat-Zinn.
[00:01:22] Jon helped pioneer the mindfulness movement in the late 70s and early 80s,
[00:01:27] and he’s just a remarkably calm and generous person.
[00:01:31] There is a lot here, but really, it’s a conversation about being more present in your own life
[00:01:36] and why that can be so hard.
[00:01:39] Jon is very insightful, and he actually helped me think through some of my own struggles in this episode.
[00:01:46] Anyway, here’s the show.
[00:01:51] Capitalism is undefeated.
[00:01:53] That’s a line you’ve probably heard me say a few times on this show.
[00:01:57] Usually, when I’m talking about the way that capitalism co-ops our culture’s best ideas,
[00:02:04] whatever the domain, fashion, music, wellness,
[00:02:09] industry will find a way to take something cool, something special, and make it banal.
[00:02:15] Turn it into a product.
[00:02:20] Mindfulness meditation is an interesting example.
[00:02:23] The number of Americans who’ve tried meditation has tripled.
[00:02:27] Since 2012.
[00:02:28] The practice is being offered in workplaces, schools, healthcare facilities.
[00:02:33] There are tons of meditation apps you can download.
[00:02:36] On the surface, that may seem like a great thing.
[00:02:40] And in many ways, it is.
[00:02:42] But has the mainstreaming of mindfulness come at a cost to the practice itself?
[00:02:49] When meditation becomes a productivity hack,
[00:02:53] have we just lost the plot?
[00:02:57] I’m Sean Elling, and this is The Gray Area.
[00:03:07] Today’s guest is Jon Kabat-Zinn.
[00:03:10] He’s a scientist, writer, teacher, and the author of several books.
[00:03:14] Most notably, his mega bestseller, Wherever You Go, There You Are.
[00:03:19] It came out in 1994 and has just been republished as a 30th anniversary edition.
[00:03:26] Jon is a pioneer in the field of meditation.
[00:03:27] He’s also the pioneer of the mindfulness movement in America.
[00:03:29] I’ve followed his work for a while,
[00:03:31] and I’ve always found him to be an uncommonly thoughtful and generous person.
[00:03:36] So, on the anniversary of his book, I invited him onto the show.
[00:03:41] We had a wide-ranging discussion about mindfulness.
[00:03:45] We talked about what it means to him,
[00:03:47] why it’s so damn hard to practice in everyday life,
[00:03:51] and what meditation has come to represent in our culture.
[00:03:57] Jon Kabat-Zinn, welcome to the show.
[00:04:01] Thank you.
[00:04:02] Pleasure to be here, Sean.
[00:04:03] It is truly hard to believe that it’s been 30 years,
[00:04:09] basically, since you publish Wherever You Go, There You Are.
[00:04:14] You know, back then, mindfulness wasn’t a part of the lexicon at all.
[00:04:19] Now, it is everywhere.
[00:04:22] You know, of course, I want to know what the term means to you,
[00:04:25] but instead of asking it,
[00:04:27] straightforwardly,
[00:04:28] I think I’d rather ask you
[00:04:30] what you think the opposite of mindfulness is,
[00:04:34] because I think that’s actually more clarifying.
[00:04:37] The opposite of mindfulness is mindlessness,
[00:04:40] and what that means to me is unawareness,
[00:04:45] when it’s actually out of touch with aspects of reality
[00:04:49] that are salient and potentially vital to living life fully.
[00:04:55] So, mindfulness,
[00:04:57] in my vocabulary,
[00:04:59] is synonymous with awareness, with human awareness.
[00:05:02] So, it’s not something you have to acquire.
[00:05:05] It’s basically you’re born with this capacity for awareness,
[00:05:09] but the opposite of mindfulness really is inattention.
[00:05:15] What is the goal?
[00:05:17] Is it some kind of inner peace?
[00:05:19] Is it freedom?
[00:05:20] Is it happiness?
[00:05:22] What?
[00:05:23] Actually, it’s the one human activity
[00:05:26] that you have to do, and that’s mindfulness.
[00:05:26] That you engage in for no purpose,
[00:05:29] not for some kind of contrived goal
[00:05:32] that you want to attain,
[00:05:34] and then you’ll be happy,
[00:05:36] you’re proficient at something or whatever,
[00:05:38] but this is more so that you actually are living the life
[00:05:42] that’s yours to live
[00:05:44] in the only moment that you ever have to live it,
[00:05:49] which we don’t usually realize is this one, now.
[00:05:55] So, we’re always on the way to some better place,
[00:05:58] better moment, or running away from the awful moments,
[00:06:01] and so we haven’t developed that skill
[00:06:03] that you could learn in elementary school
[00:06:06] to actually be with things as they are,
[00:06:09] whether they’re pleasant, unpleasant, or neither.
[00:06:12] You’re just neutral,
[00:06:14] and see how that actually feels.
[00:06:17] There’s no place to go.
[00:06:19] There’s nothing to do,
[00:06:20] and there’s no special state or feeling
[00:06:23] that you’re supposed to attain,
[00:06:24] it’s more about,
[00:06:26] can you be with things in your body in this moment
[00:06:30] as they actually are?
[00:06:32] And what does that feel like?
[00:06:34] And that’s a real discovery.
[00:06:36] And holy cow,
[00:06:38] I can actually inhabit this moment
[00:06:40] and not be tyrannized completely by my thoughts.
[00:06:43] And that’s a skill.
[00:06:44] I mean, that’s something that is really a useful skill
[00:06:47] to be able to not miss your life.
[00:06:50] It is pretty horrifying to realize that
[00:06:53] at the end of our lives,
[00:06:55] it is practically certain that
[00:06:57] at least one of our biggest regrets
[00:06:59] will be that we wasted so much of our attention,
[00:07:03] that we simply cared about the wrong things,
[00:07:06] and yet very, very few of us
[00:07:08] live as though we’ve internalized that insight, right?
[00:07:11] I mean, I certainly don’t.
[00:07:12] If you look closely, in fact,
[00:07:13] I think you’ll see that most of us
[00:07:15] live as though
[00:07:17] we think we’re going to live forever,
[00:07:19] because that would be the only justification
[00:07:21] for wasting so much fucking time,
[00:07:23] wouldn’t it?
[00:07:24] Beautifully put.
[00:07:25] There’s a certain way in which I think
[00:07:27] you can live forever,
[00:07:29] and that is live in this moment,
[00:07:31] because this present moment
[00:07:34] has no dimension to it.
[00:07:36] So it’s not like,
[00:07:38] oh, it’s over.
[00:07:39] It’s like a dwelling place.
[00:07:42] You can reside in the present moment
[00:07:44] outside of time.
[00:07:46] So that is as close as I think
[00:07:48] we’re ever going to get to immortality.
[00:07:51] Do you think if you meditate longer,
[00:07:53] you eventually come to the conclusion
[00:07:55] that the self is an illusion?
[00:07:57] That the self,
[00:07:58] at least what we mean by the self,
[00:07:59] is really just a story
[00:08:01] that gets reinforced by our environment?
[00:08:04] Totally.
[00:08:05] It is a narrative.
[00:08:07] The story of me.
[00:08:08] Starring me.
[00:08:09] Put it up on the marquee.
[00:08:10] The story of me.
[00:08:12] You know, starring me
[00:08:14] with all the trials and tribulations
[00:08:16] and triumphs or whatever.
[00:08:18] Well, when you sit down to meditate,
[00:08:20] the first thing you realize,
[00:08:22] because everybody wants
[00:08:23] to be good at everything, right?
[00:08:25] Well, if I’m going to meditate,
[00:08:26] I better get a good result.
[00:08:28] But remember, I just said
[00:08:29] this isn’t about having a result.
[00:08:31] It’s the one thing that you do
[00:08:32] for its own sake
[00:08:33] without getting a result.
[00:08:34] But that doesn’t matter
[00:08:36] because you’ll sit down
[00:08:37] and after a few moments,
[00:08:40] you know, something’s
[00:08:41] going to drive you crazy.
[00:08:42] Either your body’s
[00:08:43] going to get fidgety,
[00:08:45] and you’re going to say,
[00:08:46] well, what’s the point of this?
[00:08:47] I mean, this is ridiculous.
[00:08:49] Or you’re going to fall into
[00:08:51] some kind of narrative.
[00:08:53] And what I’m going to have
[00:08:54] for dinner or what I forgot
[00:08:56] at the grocery store
[00:08:57] when I went shopping,
[00:08:58] whatever it is,
[00:09:00] you begin to realize that,
[00:09:02] oh my God, that narrative
[00:09:04] never stops.
[00:09:05] But your awareness of it
[00:09:07] isn’t touched by it.
[00:09:08] So you already,
[00:09:10] in that present moment,
[00:09:11] have a new degree of freedom.
[00:09:13] You don’t have to fall
[00:09:14] into the thought stream.
[00:09:16] You can attend to it
[00:09:18] by just kind of observing.
[00:09:20] We’re talking about this,
[00:09:22] and as with a lot of things,
[00:09:23] it is much easier said than done.
[00:09:25] It sounds really nice and lovely.
[00:09:26] You just be aware.
[00:09:28] You just drop into the moment
[00:09:30] and yada, yada, yada.
[00:09:32] Well, do you practice?
[00:09:33] Do you have a meditation
[00:09:34] practice yourself?
[00:09:35] I do.
[00:09:37] It is inconsistent and embarrassing.
[00:09:39] And, you know, I’m trying
[00:09:41] to live mindfully,
[00:09:42] and I do have a practice,
[00:09:43] but my experience has been one
[00:09:45] of consistent failure
[00:09:46] and frustration.
[00:09:48] I don’t know.
[00:09:49] I think maybe the very
[00:09:50] complicated question
[00:09:51] I’m asking here is,
[00:09:52] why is it so fucking hard
[00:09:53] to be mindful, John?
[00:09:54] Why is this so difficult to do?
[00:09:56] Because we are so reactive.
[00:09:58] I mean, that the mind
[00:10:01] generates this illusory self.
[00:10:04] And this is a fundamental message
[00:10:07] of the Buddha
[00:10:08] or the fundamental insight
[00:10:10] is you are not
[00:10:12] who you think you are.
[00:10:13] You’re much, much larger
[00:10:15] than the story of me.
[00:10:17] But even when I’m sitting here
[00:10:18] talking to you,
[00:10:19] I’m doing my very best
[00:10:20] to listen and be fully present.
[00:10:22] But my mind is running
[00:10:23] a million miles an hour.
[00:10:24] I’m wondering,
[00:10:25] am I saying the right things?
[00:10:26] Or am I asking the questions
[00:10:28] I wanted to ask?
[00:10:29] You know, what is the plan?
[00:10:30] Am I saying things
[00:10:31] that sound smart and lucid?
[00:10:32] Or am I, you know,
[00:10:33] tripping over my words?
[00:10:34] It just won’t stop, right?
[00:10:36] Like, it’s just the chatter.
[00:10:38] But at the same time,
[00:10:40] we are connecting.
[00:10:41] We’re in conversation.
[00:10:44] So if we just stop for a moment
[00:10:46] and not worry about
[00:10:47] where it’s going,
[00:10:49] but just let ourselves experience it,
[00:10:53] you and your body,
[00:10:54] me and my body,
[00:10:55] and then with the miracle
[00:10:56] of, like, this technology,
[00:10:58] it allows us to be
[00:10:59] on each other’s screens
[00:11:01] and in each other’s ears,
[00:11:04] well, this is fine for now.
[00:11:07] And of course, I’m guessing
[00:11:09] lots of people are going
[00:11:10] to be listening to this.
[00:11:12] And maybe it’ll be fine
[00:11:14] for them now, too.
[00:11:16] I’m guessing that everybody
[00:11:17] who’s tuning in
[00:11:19] is breathing.
[00:11:20] It’s just a wild guess.
[00:11:22] But I’m guessing that
[00:11:23] the breath is moving in and out
[00:11:25] of everybody’s body.
[00:11:27] And everybody’s thinking
[00:11:29] and wondering what’s going
[00:11:31] to get said next.
[00:11:32] But let’s just tune in
[00:11:34] to this moment and this breath.
[00:11:38] And then how do we do that?
[00:11:40] Well, we do it by attending,
[00:11:43] paying attention.
[00:11:45] And then that’s the gateway
[00:11:47] into awareness.
[00:11:48] Well, I know you said
[00:11:49] earlier that it’s wrong
[00:11:51] to think of it in terms
[00:11:52] of a purpose or a goal.
[00:11:54] But if I’m hearing you right,
[00:11:56] maybe it is actually
[00:11:57] that life itself
[00:11:58] becomes the meditation.
[00:12:00] Exact-a-ment.
[00:12:01] I couldn’t have said it
[00:12:02] better myself.
[00:12:03] Exact-a-ment.
[00:12:05] Life itself is
[00:12:06] the meditation practice,
[00:12:07] not sitting on the cushion,
[00:12:10] not doing body scans.
[00:12:11] I mean, all of these things
[00:12:12] are formal meditation practices
[00:12:14] that are of profound value
[00:12:17] in the moment that you’re
[00:12:19] practicing with them
[00:12:20] for their own sake.
[00:12:21] But then if that’s what happens
[00:12:23] on the cushion or in bed
[00:12:25] when you’re lying in the corpse pose
[00:12:27] doing a body scan or whatever,
[00:12:29] and then you think,
[00:12:30] okay, now the meditation’s over,
[00:12:31] now I go live my life,
[00:12:33] you’ve made a very,
[00:12:34] very big mistake.
[00:12:35] But the world around us
[00:12:37] does sort of conspire
[00:12:38] to keep us there, right?
[00:12:39] I mean, I’ve probably had
[00:12:40] a couple of moments in my life
[00:12:41] where I’ve had what you would call
[00:12:44] transformative experiences,
[00:12:46] inhaling a bag of mushrooms
[00:12:47] will do that to you.
[00:12:49] And it’s hard to explain,
[00:12:50] but in the aftermath
[00:12:51] of those experiences,
[00:12:53] I would say that I was more present
[00:12:54] in my life,
[00:12:55] more present than I had been before.
[00:12:57] And what happened is that
[00:12:58] it just didn’t last, right?
[00:12:59] It just didn’t survive contact
[00:13:00] with the world.
[00:13:02] Because when you drop back
[00:13:03] into everyday life,
[00:13:04] you’re just bumping into
[00:13:06] other isolated egos,
[00:13:08] and most people aren’t really present,
[00:13:09] aren’t really listening.
[00:13:11] And so we kind of just go back
[00:13:13] to playing that game.
[00:13:15] That’s exactly right.
[00:13:16] And this is described
[00:13:18] in the classical traditions,
[00:13:19] and I certainly describe
[00:13:20] in the same way.
[00:13:21] It’s a liberative practice.
[00:13:23] It is actually freeing us.
[00:13:26] And then, yeah, of course,
[00:13:28] you’ll get caught in a million
[00:13:29] different things,
[00:13:30] and you’ll sooner or later
[00:13:32] recognize that.
[00:13:33] The recognizing
[00:13:34] is the awareness thing.
[00:13:36] So you’re already back.
[00:13:37] And if mine goes off,
[00:13:39] bring it back.
[00:13:40] If mine goes off,
[00:13:41] bring it back.
[00:13:42] If mine goes off,
[00:13:43] don’t want to bring it back.
[00:13:44] Well, there’s a certain
[00:13:45] association with this.
[00:13:46] As he said,
[00:13:47] you bring it back anyway.
[00:13:48] And especially if you’re doing this,
[00:13:50] tuning the instrument
[00:13:51] on the meditation cushion,
[00:13:52] after a while,
[00:13:54] that does become more
[00:13:56] your default mode.
[00:13:57] You live in the room
[00:13:58] rather than living in the agitation
[00:14:00] of your conceptual reality.
[00:14:03] But you don’t lose
[00:14:04] the conceptual reality,
[00:14:06] so it’s not that you get stupid.
[00:14:08] No, I mean,
[00:14:09] the most effective people I know
[00:14:11] are meditators.
[00:14:13] And what do you do
[00:14:14] when you have lapsed?
[00:14:15] Or what do you do
[00:14:16] when you become ensnared
[00:14:17] by that ego inside?
[00:14:18] Well, I have good friends
[00:14:19] that can mirror it back to me,
[00:14:20] for instance,
[00:14:21] and, you know,
[00:14:22] in my family
[00:14:23] and in my circle of friends.
[00:14:24] But for the most part,
[00:14:25] I just recognize
[00:14:26] all of those things.
[00:14:27] And it happens constantly.
[00:14:28] I mean,
[00:14:29] I’m not different
[00:14:30] from anybody else.
[00:14:31] You know,
[00:14:32] everybody has their
[00:14:33] straitjackets
[00:14:34] that we put ourselves into
[00:14:35] or particular kinds
[00:14:36] of emotional
[00:14:37] relationships
[00:14:38] that we have.
[00:14:39] And, you know,
[00:14:40] I think that’s
[00:14:41] one of the things
[00:14:42] that I think
[00:14:43] is really important
[00:14:44] in terms of
[00:14:45] emotional reactivity
[00:14:46] or thought channels
[00:14:48] that we get stuck in.
[00:14:50] Recognize,
[00:14:51] recognize,
[00:14:52] recognize.
[00:14:53] That’s the awareness function.
[00:14:55] As soon as you recognize it,
[00:14:57] you can step out of it.
[00:14:58] Now,
[00:14:59] if you can get your ass
[00:15:00] on the cushion
[00:15:01] every single day
[00:15:02] as if your life
[00:15:03] depended on it,
[00:15:04] then
[00:15:05] the recognizing,
[00:15:06] recognizing,
[00:15:07] recognizing
[00:15:08] will just go on
[00:15:09] for a time.
[00:15:10] And you’ll learn
[00:15:11] to kind of just
[00:15:12] not do anything.
[00:15:13] Try to be
[00:15:14] you know,
[00:15:15] try to have
[00:15:16] some special feeling.
[00:15:17] It’s like,
[00:15:18] oh yeah,
[00:15:19] this is the meditative,
[00:15:20] this is the pot of gold
[00:15:21] at the end of the…
[00:15:22] No.
[00:15:23] This is it.
[00:15:24] This moment
[00:15:25] as it is.
[00:15:26] And when you hold
[00:15:27] that in awareness,
[00:15:28] there’s no place to go.
[00:15:29] There’s nothing to do.
[00:15:30] There’s nothing special
[00:15:31] to attain.
[00:15:32] And in that nothing
[00:15:34] is absolutely everything.
[00:15:36] Hmm.
[00:15:37] This practice
[00:15:38] really is a love affair.
[00:15:40] I mean,
[00:15:41] it really is a love affair
[00:15:42] with life.
[00:15:43] It’s easy to miss
[00:15:44] the moment
[00:15:45] or miss
[00:15:46] a hundred moments
[00:15:47] or miss
[00:15:48] a month
[00:15:49] or miss
[00:15:50] a year
[00:15:51] or miss
[00:15:52] like your children
[00:15:53] growing up.
[00:15:54] Your whole life.
[00:15:55] It’s easy to miss
[00:15:56] your whole fucking life.
[00:15:57] Your whole life.
[00:15:58] So,
[00:15:59] we should be
[00:16:00] highly motivated
[00:16:01] to not miss it.
[00:16:02] And the way
[00:16:03] to not miss it
[00:16:04] is to just
[00:16:05] tend
[00:16:06] to this moment.
[00:16:07] When you’re
[00:16:08] tending
[00:16:09] to this moment
[00:16:10] and with tenderness,
[00:16:11] that is the kind
[00:16:12] of thing
[00:16:13] that gives you
[00:16:14] access
[00:16:15] immediately
[00:16:16] to pure awareness.
[00:16:17] And that is
[00:16:18] your true nature.
[00:16:20] Awareness
[00:16:21] is much more
[00:16:22] your true nature
[00:16:23] than your name
[00:16:24] or your age
[00:16:25] or your gender
[00:16:26] identification
[00:16:27] or anything else.
[00:16:28] And I’m suggesting
[00:16:29] to listeners,
[00:16:30] don’t take
[00:16:31] my word for it.
[00:16:32] Try it.
[00:16:38] After this short break,
[00:16:39] what happens
[00:16:40] when mindfulness
[00:16:41] becomes mainstream?
[00:16:44] We’ll be right back.
[00:16:49] Support for the show
[00:16:50] comes from Delete.me.
[00:16:52] If you’re online,
[00:16:53] then your personal information
[00:16:54] could be compromised.
[00:16:55] Delete.me wants to help.
[00:16:57] Our colleague,
[00:16:58] Claire White,
[00:16:59] recently tried Delete.me.
[00:17:00] I’ve had Delete.me
[00:17:01] for a year
[00:17:02] and in this year,
[00:17:03] consistently,
[00:17:04] they’re still finding
[00:17:05] and removing
[00:17:06] unsafe places
[00:17:07] where my data
[00:17:08] is on the internet.
[00:17:09] I’m super grateful
[00:17:10] because I had to just
[00:17:11] set it up once
[00:17:12] and it’s continued
[00:17:13] to work for me
[00:17:14] and keep me protected
[00:17:16] and keep me private
[00:17:17] as a person online.
[00:17:19] Delete.me makes it easy,
[00:17:20] quick,
[00:17:21] and safe
[00:17:22] to remove your personal data
[00:17:23] online at a time
[00:17:24] when surveillance
[00:17:25] and data breaches
[00:17:26] are common enough
[00:17:27] to make everyone vulnerable.
[00:17:28] With Delete.me,
[00:17:29] you can protect
[00:17:30] your personal privacy
[00:17:31] or the privacy
[00:17:32] of your business
[00:17:33] from doxing attacks.
[00:17:34] Take control
[00:17:35] of your data
[00:17:36] and keep your private life
[00:17:37] private by signing up
[00:17:38] for Delete.me,
[00:17:39] a special discount
[00:17:40] for our listeners.
[00:17:41] Get 20% off
[00:17:42] your Delete.me plan
[00:17:43] when you go to
[00:17:44] JoinDeleteMe.com
[00:17:45] slash Vox
[00:17:46] and use promo code
[00:17:47] Vox at checkout.
[00:17:48] The only way
[00:17:49] to get 20% off
[00:17:50] is to go to
[00:17:51] JoinDeleteMe.com
[00:17:52] slash Vox
[00:17:53] and enter code
[00:17:54] Vox at checkout.
[00:17:55] That’s
[00:17:56] JoinDeleteMe.com
[00:17:57] slash Vox
[00:17:58] code Vox.
[00:18:02] Support for the show
[00:18:03] comes from Mint Mobile.
[00:18:05] We all have
[00:18:06] that stubborn friend
[00:18:07] who insists
[00:18:08] on doing things
[00:18:09] the hard way.
[00:18:10] Like your friend
[00:18:11] whose car
[00:18:12] only starts
[00:18:13] 60% of the time.
[00:18:14] Or your other friend
[00:18:15] who never drinks water
[00:18:16] and for some reason
[00:18:17] always has a headache.
[00:18:18] Well,
[00:18:19] let’s make sure
[00:18:20] you’re
[00:18:21] not the friend
[00:18:22] who’s overpaying
[00:18:23] for wireless
[00:18:24] in 2026.
[00:18:25] Go with Mint Mobile
[00:18:26] instead.
[00:18:27] Same coverage,
[00:18:28] same speed,
[00:18:29] just without
[00:18:30] the inflated price tag.
[00:18:31] The premium wireless
[00:18:32] you expect,
[00:18:33] unlimited talk,
[00:18:34] text,
[00:18:35] and data,
[00:18:36] but at a fraction
[00:18:37] of what others charge.
[00:18:38] Ready to stop paying
[00:18:39] when you have to?
[00:18:40] New customers
[00:18:41] can make the switch
[00:18:42] today,
[00:18:43] and for a limited time,
[00:18:44] get unlimited premium
[00:18:45] wireless for just
[00:18:46] $15 per month.
[00:18:47] Switch now at
[00:18:48] MintMobile.com
[00:18:49] slash grayarea.
[00:18:50] That’s
[00:18:51] MintMobile.com
[00:18:52] slash grayarea.
[00:18:53] Upfront payment
[00:18:54] of $45
[00:18:55] for three months,
[00:18:56] $90 for six months,
[00:18:57] or $180
[00:18:58] for a 12-month
[00:18:59] plan required.
[00:19:00] Or $15
[00:19:01] month equivalent.
[00:19:02] Taxes and fees
[00:19:03] extra.
[00:19:04] Initial plan
[00:19:05] term only.
[00:19:06] Over 50 gigabytes
[00:19:07] may slow
[00:19:08] down.
[00:19:09] Capable device
[00:19:10] required.
[00:19:11] Availability,
[00:19:12] speed,
[00:19:13] and coverage
[00:19:14] varies.
[00:19:15] Additional terms
[00:19:16] apply.
[00:19:17] See
[00:19:18] MintMobile.com
[00:19:21] Support for the show
[00:19:22] comes from
[00:19:23] Bombas.
[00:19:24] It’s
[00:19:25] the new year,
[00:19:26] so you probably
[00:19:27] have a long list
[00:19:28] of resolutions
[00:19:29] to make your life
[00:19:30] happier and more
[00:19:31] productive.
[00:19:32] Everyone has
[00:19:33] their own system.
[00:19:34] Here’s mine.
[00:19:35] I take
[00:19:36] last year’s
[00:19:37] resolution
[00:19:38] to
[00:19:39] not
[00:19:40] drink
[00:19:41] less wine,
[00:19:42] not
[00:19:43] do more
[00:19:44] exercise,
[00:19:45] not
[00:19:46] be a more
[00:19:47] patient,
[00:19:48] attentive,
[00:19:49] and gracious
[00:19:50] husband and
[00:19:51] father,
[00:19:52] and not
[00:19:53] to make
[00:19:54] smoother
[00:19:55] segs and
[00:19:56] ads for
[00:19:57] Bombas.
[00:19:58] If you’re
[00:19:59] trying to hit
[00:20:00] the gym
[00:20:01] or get
[00:20:02] more active,
[00:20:03] the all-new
[00:20:04] Bombas
[00:20:05] Sports Socks
[00:20:06] also has
[00:20:07] you covered
[00:20:08] with the
[00:20:09] super luxurious
[00:20:10] Sherpa Sunday
[00:20:11] slippers and
[00:20:12] new Squishy
[00:20:13] Saturday Suede
[00:20:14] slip-ons for
[00:20:15] comfort on
[00:20:16] the go.
[00:20:17] You may know
[00:20:18] I’ve tried out
[00:20:19] Bombas myself.
[00:20:20] I’ve been rocking
[00:20:21] the Sports Socks
[00:20:22] for over a year
[00:20:23] now.
[00:20:24] They are my
[00:20:25] favorite.
[00:20:26] I work out in
[00:20:27] them.
[00:20:28] I run in
[00:20:29] them.
[00:20:30] I use them
[00:20:31] basically every
[00:20:32] day.
[00:20:33] You can head over
[00:20:34] to
[00:20:35] Bombas.com
[00:20:37] to purchase
[00:20:38] them.
[00:20:39] That’s
[00:20:40] B-O-M-B-A-S
[00:20:41] dot com
[00:20:42] slash
[00:20:43] gray area
[00:20:44] code
[00:20:45] gray area
[00:20:46] at checkout.
[00:20:47] I’m sure
[00:20:48] you’ve heard
[00:20:49] this term
[00:20:50] McMindfulness,
[00:20:51] which is
[00:20:52] meant to
[00:20:53] capture
[00:20:54] how mindfulness
[00:20:55] practice has
[00:20:56] been co-opted
[00:20:57] by industry.
[00:20:58] I’m curious,
[00:20:59] what do you
[00:21:00] think about
[00:21:01] this and
[00:21:02] the kinds of
[00:21:03] problems it’s
[00:21:04] created?
[00:21:05] Do you think
[00:21:06] it’s created
[00:21:07] any problems
[00:21:08] at all?
[00:21:09] To tell you
[00:21:10] the truth,
[00:21:11] no, I don’t
[00:21:12] think it’s a
[00:21:13] big problem.
[00:21:14] I think that
[00:21:15] people who try
[00:21:16] to capitalize
[00:21:17] on something,
[00:21:18] especially
[00:21:19] something as
[00:21:20] intangible
[00:21:21] as mindfulness,
[00:21:22] after a while
[00:21:23] they’re going
[00:21:24] to find
[00:21:25] something more
[00:21:26] tangible to
[00:21:27] invest in
[00:21:28] because this
[00:21:29] one is
[00:21:30] really not
[00:21:31] going to
[00:21:32] carry them
[00:21:33] forward.
[00:21:34] I was in
[00:21:35] the UK doing
[00:21:36] some stuff
[00:21:37] with mindfulness
[00:21:38] in parliament
[00:21:39] and somebody
[00:21:40] showed me
[00:21:41] this paper
[00:21:42] that somebody
[00:21:43] wrote about
[00:21:44] McMindfulness
[00:21:45] and was really
[00:21:46] angry about
[00:21:47] taking mindfulness
[00:21:48] out of the
[00:21:49] Buddhist context
[00:21:50] and just
[00:21:51] offering it to
[00:21:52] the world
[00:21:53] in medicine
[00:21:54] and so forth.
[00:21:55] And you know
[00:21:56] what?
[00:21:57] I learned
[00:21:58] a long time
[00:21:59] ago you
[00:22:00] don’t have
[00:22:01] to wrestle
[00:22:02] with it.
[00:22:03] If it’s
[00:22:04] true that
[00:22:05] it’s not
[00:22:06] true dharma
[00:22:07] it will
[00:22:08] fall away.
[00:22:09] And so I
[00:22:10] can’t take
[00:22:11] responsibility
[00:22:12] for everybody
[00:22:13] who’s hyping
[00:22:14] mindfulness here
[00:22:15] there or
[00:22:16] everywhere else
[00:22:17] and I
[00:22:18] don’t feel
[00:22:19] like it’s
[00:22:20] my job
[00:22:21] to police
[00:22:22] the waterfront
[00:22:23] that the
[00:22:24] dharma in
[00:22:25] some sense
[00:22:26] will take
[00:22:27] care of
[00:22:28] itself.
[00:22:29] Meanwhile,
[00:22:30] the reason
[00:22:31] why mindfulness
[00:22:32] is so
[00:22:33] important
[00:22:34] is because
[00:22:35] mindfulness
[00:22:36] is a
[00:22:37] very
[00:22:38] important
[00:22:39] part of
[00:22:40] our
[00:22:41] lives.
[00:22:42] It’s
[00:22:43] a
[00:22:44] very
[00:22:45] important
[00:22:46] part
[00:22:47] of
[00:22:48] our
[00:22:49] lives.
[00:22:50] So
[00:22:51] mindfulness
[00:22:52] is
[00:22:53] a
[00:22:54] very
[00:22:55] important
[00:22:56] part
[00:22:57] of
[00:22:58] our
[00:22:59] lives.
[00:23:00] Mindfulness
[00:23:02] is
[00:23:03] the
[00:23:04] key
[00:23:05] key
[00:23:06] to
[00:23:07] the
[00:23:08] mental
[00:23:09] health
[00:23:10] we
[00:23:11] live
[00:23:12] in.
[00:23:13] Mindfulness
[00:23:14] is
[00:23:15] a
[00:23:16] significant
[00:23:17] part
[00:23:18] of
[00:23:19] our
[00:23:20] life.
[00:23:21] Mindfulness
[00:23:22] is
[00:23:23] a
[00:23:24] vital
[00:23:25] part
[00:23:26] of
[00:23:27] our
[00:23:28] lives.
[00:23:29] now it’s kind of in the mainstream. And the hope is that actually people are practicing because
[00:23:36] otherwise it’s just blah, blah, blah. Is it true that you consulted for the Red Sox back in the
[00:23:43] 70s? Yeah, yeah. That must have been wild. Tell me about that. When I first started the stress
[00:23:48] reduction clinic, the chief of orthopedics comes into my office and plunks himself down in his
[00:23:54] white coat. His name is Art Pappas. And it turns out not only was he the head of the orthopedics
[00:23:59] department, but he was also a part owner of the Red Sox. And he said, I’ve got this player who
[00:24:06] really is in a slump. And I’ve heard that you teach people how to regulate their mind and
[00:24:12] their attention. I wonder whether you’d be willing to come down to Fenway Park and work with Jim
[00:24:18] Rice. That’s amazing. You know, Jim Rice was like one of their super sluggers. He’s in the Hall of
[00:24:23] Fame. And I said, sure, I’m willing to give that advice.
[00:24:29] You better have said sure. Are you kidding me? Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. So I did. I went down
[00:24:35] and met all the players. And I did work with Jim Rice. Now, I’m not a baseball player. So what is
[00:24:40] a guy who’s not a baseball player going to teach Jim Rice about being in the batter’s box, facing
[00:24:48] down a pitcher 90 feet away? You know, what the hell could I possibly tell him? It was a real
[00:24:54] eye-opener in terms of the potential for this in sports.
[00:24:59] Anybody who’s a real athlete understands that training the body is not enough. You’ve got to
[00:25:06] train the mind for, you know, being a quantumist and being present in ways that go way beyond
[00:25:14] fear about what might happen or attachment to getting a hit or scoring a touchdown or anything
[00:25:22] like that. You’ve got to be like free. I think the fear or the concern that people have is
[00:25:29] that mindfulness is becoming another tool for productivity and self-optimization or it’s becoming
[00:25:38] a kind of hack for self-gratification, which in the end, of course, just amplifies the sources
[00:25:44] of our disconnectedness and unhappiness and seems to undermine the spirit of mindfulness teaching.
[00:25:52] You know, I mean, it’s got to give you the heebie-jeebies a little bit to think that,
[00:25:54] I don’t know, a company like Facebook probably has
[00:25:57] all kinds of meditation rooms in its corporate headquarters at a company that exists to harvest
[00:26:04] the attention of billions of people around the planet, right? There’s a fatal contradiction there.
[00:26:11] You nailed it. You nailed it. And mindfulness is very popular in Silicon Valley. And
[00:26:15] there are all sorts of paradoxes associated with life. You know, you pointed to some of
[00:26:21] them earlier on in our conversation. So there’s no stopping what’s going on in technology.
[00:26:27] It’s mind-blowing. It’s also terrifying. The people who are doing it are mind-blown and terrified
[00:26:34] and also driven by greed, hatred, and delusion, just like everybody else. And they’re talking
[00:26:41] about not billions of dollars of potential profit, but trillions of dollars of potential profit.
[00:26:47] So that is kind of very corrupting, potentially, the whole thing about artificial general
[00:26:54] intelligence, where, you know, the…
[00:26:57] machinery trains the next generation of machine learning, so that after a while,
[00:27:05] even the humans who have programmed things don’t actually know what, say, ChatGPT is doing. It’s
[00:27:12] doing stuff that it wasn’t actually programmed to do, or the programs didn’t realize that they
[00:27:19] were programming it to do it. And then the question comes, and you can read it in the
[00:27:23] New York Times every single day now, is, what happens in the nightmare, doomsday,
[00:27:27] scenario when the machines actually start doing other interesting stuff like sentience,
[00:27:35] where they actually become aware of themselves?
[00:27:38] Now, since we don’t know how the brain does it, we don’t know how the machines might do
[00:27:44] something similar. So you’re pointing to something that’s really terrifying, and in a certain
[00:27:49] way, this makes the need to drop into our core multiple intelligences.
[00:27:57] including awareness, more than ever, and to do it, engage in it in a way that is ethical.
[00:28:06] And this is a very important part of it, and it’s been an ethical foundation to mindfulness from
[00:28:11] the time of the Buddha. The Bodhisattva vow is, in some sense, in parallel with the
[00:28:19] Hippocratic Oath in medicine. What’s the Hippocratic Oath in medicine? First, do no harm.
[00:28:25] But how would you even know if you’re doing harm unless you’re aware?
[00:28:31] So it’s really interesting to me, when you go and do these mindfulness workshops or retreats for
[00:28:36] these Silicon Valley types, do you do them any differently than you would in some other context
[00:28:41] because of the audience and the power they have in our culture and what their creations are doing
[00:28:48] to our culture? How do you approach that?
[00:28:51] I think I annoy a lot of people because I keep bringing
[00:28:54] up…
[00:28:55] This question of ethics and the shadow side, the dark side, that nobody’s immune to greed,
[00:29:04] hatred, and delusion. That would be the ultimate liberation, okay, where nothing would tempt you
[00:29:09] to privilege yourself, even a trillion dollars. Why? Because you know that there is no yourself,
[00:29:17] that that’s a construct that’s empty of essential actuality. So that would be,
[00:29:25] wisdom. And then that would be, from an ethical point of view, we don’t engage in anything
[00:29:32] that is potentially going to be harmful. And we don’t know how this is all going to unfold. So
[00:29:38] without getting hysterical or into nightmare scenarios, the more we can bring ethics,
[00:29:45] compassion, mindfulness to this unfolding, the more we can at least, I think, tilt things in
[00:29:52] a direction of minimizing harm and minimizing harm. And I think that’s the most important thing.
[00:29:55] I think that’s the most important thing. I think that’s the most important thing. I think that’s the
[00:29:55] most important thing. I think that’s the most important thing. I think that’s the most important thing.
[00:29:55] Maximizing well-being for all, not for a privileged few.
[00:30:00] Yeah, I mean, I think this certainly gets at something I think about a lot,
[00:30:03] the dangers of something like mindfulness divorced from any kind of ethical foundation. You know,
[00:30:08] from my point of view, as a political person, the hazard of too much focus on our inner lives or too
[00:30:16] much focus on meditation techniques to help us cope with the brokenness around us is that it can,
[00:30:24] can actually distract us from the struggle to face that brokenness and change the world. Like,
[00:30:31] I am all for self-compassion and self-love and that kind of thing. But if your journey inward
[00:30:36] doesn’t eventually lead you away from your ego and toward the world around you,
[00:30:43] toward the people around you, then it’s a dead end, ethically and politically.
[00:30:47] It’s never wise to prognosticate about the future. But I do feel like the stakes are
[00:30:54] increasing. And I think that’s the most important thing. And I think that’s the most important thing.
[00:30:54] Incredibly high at the moment on the planet as a whole for us to wake up and practice medicine
[00:31:02] for the world, okay? In other words, bring the Hippocratic Oath to the planet. First, do no harm.
[00:31:10] So let’s roll back all the ways that we see ourselves doing harm. If you were, like,
[00:31:15] really just going into business for maximizing the amount of money that you could make,
[00:31:22] well, of course, high tech would be one.
[00:31:24] But let’s not forget arms manufacturing. We’re building autonomous weapons where,
[00:31:30] you know, the killing is actually going to be a function of AI and not even, you know,
[00:31:36] a human being pulling the trigger. I don’t know what the ultimate difference to that is going
[00:31:40] to be to an innocent child or a woman trying to cross the street. But this is the world that
[00:31:47] we’ve created. We’ve created it. We can create something else. We’re in a new world. We’re in a
[00:31:54] new world. We’re in a new world. We’re in a new world. We’re in a new world. We’re in a new world.
[00:31:54] This is not 1979. The stress that we were dealing with in 1979 seems like 1979. It was like paradise
[00:32:02] compared to what we’re dealing with now. And we need to be up to the task. And all human beings
[00:32:11] who want to participate in this kind of thing need to ask deep questions about who we are and
[00:32:19] what we love. And then enact that as if
[00:32:24] not only our lives depended on it, which they do, but the world depends on it, which it does.
[00:32:37] After one more short break, getting to the heart of mindfulness. We’ll be right back.
[00:32:51] Support for The Gray Area comes from HIMSS,
[00:32:54] ED is more common than you think, but it can also be simpler to treat than you think too.
[00:32:59] Through HIMSS, you can connect online with a licensed provider to access personalized
[00:33:03] treatment options discreetly and on your terms. HIMSS can offer access to personalized
[00:33:08] prescription treatment options for ED if prescribed. And if prescribed, they say
[00:33:13] their options range from personalized products to trusted generics that cost 95% less than brand
[00:33:18] names. HIMSS say they bring expert care straight to you with 100% online access to personalized
[00:33:24] treatments that put your goals first. You can think of HIMSS as your digital front door. You
[00:33:29] can step through to get back to your old self. It’s not a one size fits all approach. They say
[00:33:33] they put your health and goals first with real medical providers, making sure you get what you
[00:33:38] need to get results. You can get simple online access to personalized affordable care for ED,
[00:33:43] hair loss, weight loss, and more by visiting HIMSS.com slash gray area. That’s HIMSS.com
[00:33:50] slash gray area for your free online visit.
[00:33:53] HIMSS.com.
[00:33:54] Support for the show comes from Shopify. Starting a new business has never been easy,
[00:34:04] but without the right tools, it can feel almost impossible. Shopify says
[00:34:08] they can help set you up for lasting success. Shopify is the commerce platform used by millions
[00:34:15] of businesses around the world. They say they can help you tackle all those important tasks
[00:34:19] in one place from inventory to payments to analytics and more.
[00:34:24] No need to save multiple websites or try to figure out what platform is hosting the tool
[00:34:28] that you need. Everything is all in one place, making your life easier and your business
[00:34:33] operations smoother. Let Shopify be your commerce expert with world-class expertise
[00:34:39] in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns
[00:34:43] and beyond. You can get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready-to-use
[00:34:48] templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style.
[00:34:54] It’s time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. You can sign up for your $1 per month
[00:35:01] trial period and start selling today at shopify.com slash box. Go to shopify.com slash box. That’s
[00:35:08] shopify.com slash box.
[00:35:16] Hey, everybody. Astead Herndon here. I wanted to let you know that Vox Media is returning
[00:35:21] to South by Southwest in Austin.
[00:35:24] Live tapings of your favorite podcasts. Join us from March 13th through March 15th for live
[00:35:30] tapings of Pivot, Teffy Talks, Professor G’s Markets, Where Should We Begin with Esther
[00:35:35] Perel, and the special live taping of Today Explained, hosted by yours truly. The Vox
[00:35:40] Media podcast stage will also feature sessions from Brene Brown and Adam Grant, Marcus Brownlee,
[00:35:46] Keith Lee, Vivian Tu, Robin Arzon, and more. Visit voxmedia.com slash south by
[00:35:54] southwest to pre-register and get a special discount on your South by Southwest innovation
[00:35:59] badge. That’s voxmedia.com slash south by southwest. Hope to see you there.
[00:36:11] If you were to ask me a ridiculous question, like, do I think I’m a wise person? I would say no. I
[00:36:18] would say that I’m reasonably smart in the sense that I know a good bit, which is mostly just a
[00:36:23] product of the network. I’m not a good person. I’m not a good person. I’m not a good person. I’m not
[00:36:24] a good person in education, but I’m not wise because my actions are often not in alignment
[00:36:29] with my knowledge. I don’t live the way I know I ought to. And I’ve come to think of that as the
[00:36:34] very definition of unwisdom. And what I try to do is close that gap and try to not get sucked back
[00:36:43] into that default mode and to not stop paying attention to avoid all the horrors that come
[00:36:48] that way or through that. To people out there trying to do the same thing, I would say,
[00:36:54] fighting that same slog in the day-to-day world, which, as I said earlier, does conspire
[00:36:59] to keep us unmindful, to use your words. What is your parting advice, your parting wisdom?
[00:37:09] You have to recognize how precious this moment is and how precious you are,
[00:37:17] how miraculous you are. I mean, the fact is that your eyes work, your ears work,
[00:37:24] in most cases, everything is working. You don’t have the slightest idea how your eyes work or how
[00:37:30] your ears work or how your heart works and keeps you alive day and night and your lungs work and
[00:37:36] when you’re healthy. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with you. So what is the best way to live
[00:37:48] into your own fullness? And is there anything that you can contribute,
[00:37:54] that would satisfy your instinct to belong and to make a difference? And you do that,
[00:38:05] whether it’s just taking a walk with somebody you love or contributing to, you know, civic
[00:38:11] engagement or going out and protesting or whatever it is, you do what you love and what your instinct
[00:38:19] is telling you to do and see if you can be present for it, at least part of it.
[00:38:24] And when you notice, oh, even doing what I love, I’m going on autopilot, the awareness,
[00:38:30] there’s the awareness. It’s guiding you because that awareness is not lost. So you just keep
[00:38:36] coming back and see what happens. Just engage in it as a big adventure because you have nothing to
[00:38:42] lose except living your life as if it didn’t matter.
[00:38:47] Actually, I was just wondering if we could close with a short meditation, if you have any that
[00:38:53] come to mind or any…
[00:38:54] That’d be lovely.
[00:38:55] Would that be okay?
[00:38:57] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And let me just say, if you’re listening to this in your car and
[00:39:02] you’re driving, do not close your eyes, okay? Driving is a really wonderful mindfulness
[00:39:08] meditation practice in and of itself. And you don’t want to get too distracted and turn
[00:39:15] to the left or to the right or behind you for more than a fraction of a second.
[00:39:25] So wherever you find yourself, taking your seat, whatever that means
[00:39:30] to you, and just letting yourself become aware
[00:39:34] of the body as a whole sitting here breathing, whatever posture you’re in.
[00:39:45] You could be lying down, you could be standing on your head, you could be running.
[00:39:52] Okay.
[00:39:53] Okay.
[00:39:53] Okay.
[00:39:53] Okay.
[00:39:54] Okay.
[00:39:54] but just bringing awareness to the body as a whole,
[00:39:58] and I’ll say it, sitting and breathing,
[00:40:00] since I’m sitting and breathing.
[00:40:09] And noticing that it’s possible to actually,
[00:40:12] without any effort,
[00:40:14] hold it in awareness,
[00:40:17] embrace the body in awareness,
[00:40:21] feeling whatever’s here to be felt.
[00:40:26] In other words, the entire sensory universe of the skin,
[00:40:30] the body from head to toe, the skin,
[00:40:35] the arms, the legs, the torso,
[00:40:40] the whole body sitting here,
[00:40:46] and it’s exchanging air with the world.
[00:40:51] And it’s not really fair to say that you’re doing it
[00:40:54] because it happens in your sleep,
[00:40:57] and no one ever forgets to breathe and dies.
[00:41:02] So it’s more like you’re being breathed than you’re breathing.
[00:41:07] And you just drop into awareness of the body
[00:41:10] sitting here, breathing.
[00:41:21] And ride on the waves of the sensations in your belly
[00:41:25] or at the nostrils
[00:41:27] or wherever the breath sensations are most vivid.
[00:41:30] Just riding on the waves of sensation
[00:41:34] in awareness.
[00:41:41] So you don’t have to do anything.
[00:41:47] This all just happens as you,
[00:41:51] bring awareness into the body
[00:41:53] or let awareness suffuse the body.
[00:42:05] And then the mind will do, of course,
[00:42:06] whatever the mind will do.
[00:42:11] And your assignment, if you choose to accept it,
[00:42:15] is to simply let thoughts come and go,
[00:42:17] let emotions come and go.
[00:42:19] Like a storm,
[00:42:20] the storms in the mind or clouds
[00:42:23] or birds flitting through the sky.
[00:42:28] They’re just events in the field of awareness.
[00:42:32] And you take a residency in awareness itself.
[00:42:39] Letting it become your address,
[00:42:43] your domicile,
[00:42:46] your place of residence here.
[00:42:50] Now.
[00:42:52] Outside of time.
[00:42:54] In this only moment.
[00:43:02] And simply living here in awareness.
[00:43:09] Moment by moment,
[00:43:13] a timeless moment.
[00:43:17] Be aware of this.
[00:43:20] when, I’m not saying if, when you notice,
[00:43:25] because it’s inevitable that this will happen,
[00:43:28] that your mind will wind up carried away in the thought stream.
[00:43:34] And you’ll get caught up in some reverie or fantasy
[00:43:37] or memory or anticipation, planning, worrying.
[00:43:45] And sooner or later, you’re going to notice that that happened,
[00:43:52] that you gave yourself the assignment of being aware of the body sitting here breathing,
[00:43:58] but all of a sudden, you’re lost in some narrative,
[00:44:01] something going on in the world of thought or emotion.
[00:44:09] In the moment that you realize that, that’s a moment of wakefulness.
[00:44:13] That’s a moment.
[00:44:15] That’s a moment of realization.
[00:44:16] That’s the awareness function reminding you and re-bodying you,
[00:44:23] which means just come back to the body sitting here breathing.
[00:44:28] You don’t criticize yourself for having had your mind wander.
[00:44:33] You don’t pursue what was on your mind.
[00:44:36] You don’t reject what was on your mind.
[00:44:40] Just let it be and to come back to taking up residence,
[00:44:45] and to be in awareness itself.
[00:44:49] And if the mind wanders a hundred million times,
[00:44:52] which it certainly will,
[00:44:57] every time the invitation is the same.
[00:45:02] When you realize that it’s gone off some place,
[00:45:06] noticing what’s on your mind,
[00:45:08] noticing the emotional charge, as well as the content,
[00:45:12] without thinking more about any of it,
[00:45:14] just the lightest of touches,
[00:45:17] and then coming back to this moment,
[00:45:21] sitting here breathing in full awareness.
[00:45:30] That was lovely.
[00:45:33] The one and only Jon Kabat-Zinn.
[00:45:36] Thank you so much for coming in today.
[00:45:38] My pleasure, Sean.
[00:45:40] Really, it’s been wonderful having this conversation with you.
[00:45:44] I enjoyed it very much.
[00:45:45] I feel what you’re doing is really important.
[00:45:47] Thank you for having me on this episode.
[00:45:49] You’re the best.
[00:45:52] Thank you for having me on this episode.
[00:45:54] I hope you enjoyed this episode.
[00:45:55] Like I said at the beginning,
[00:45:56] this is one of my personal favorites.
[00:45:58] But as always, we want to know what you think.
[00:46:01] Let us know that we’re not screaming into a void here.
[00:46:04] So tell us what you think of the episode.
[00:46:06] You can drop us a line at the gray area at Vox.com,
[00:46:09] or you can leave us a message on our new voicemail line
[00:46:11] at 1-800-214-5749.
[00:46:14] please go ahead, rate, review, subscribe to the pod. This episode was produced by John Ahrens,
[00:46:21] edited by Jorge Just, engineered by Patrick Boyd, and Alex Obrington wrote our theme music.
[00:46:26] New episodes of The Gray Area drop on Mondays and Fridays. Listen and subscribe. You can now
[00:46:31] watch episodes of The Gray Area at youtube.com slash Vox. The show is part of Vox. Support Vox’s
[00:46:37] journalism by joining our membership program today. Go to vox.com slash members to sign up.
[00:46:42] And if you decide to sign up because of this show, let us know.